Justice or Mercy?

”Are the Gods not just?” “Oh no, child. What would become of us if they were?”
-CS Lewis Till We Have Faces

I’ve been thinking alot about justice lately and have come to the conclusion that there can be no such thing as justice on this earth, and that the best we can strive for is mercy. To explore this theme, let’s just start with our loved ones and then we can expand out to all of humanity, and perhaps even our own enemies and ourselves.

First, we need a working definition for the word “justice” (surprisingly hard to find). I’d guess the purest sense of justice can be found in the phrase “an eye for an eye.” To get exactly that which one gave. Mercy could be defined as forgiveness of wrong-doing.

When a loved one does us wrong, is our instinct to wrong them in the same way they wronged us, or is it to correct the impulse/behavior which led to the transgression of our trust/love?
Is “getting even” ever truly satisfying; especially when it’s with those we love? In the cases of mild errors, getting even just seems petty; when a person has done us horribly wrong, getting even would force us to do horribly wrong things as well.
In either of those cases, mercy appears the better course.

When we’ve done others wrong, do we want to be forgiven or to receive justice? How many times have you truly received the justice you’ve deserved? I know some of the harm I’ve done just can’t be repaired. Mercy is the best I could hope for (and, luckily for all of us, we really are made in our creator’s image and merciful beings).

I’ll end with two anecdotes, one from a news story I read years ago and the other from a movie directed by a survivor of a Nazi invasion to demonstrate the impossibility of justice on this earth. The article was from Al-jazeera and was about some middle eastern town where a victim’s family member was able to enact justice on the murderer. The images showed a horrific scene--the killer was tied to a pole with a sack over his head. The victim’s family then stabbed the killer to death while a crowd cheered them on.
In the movie “Come and See,” the only surviving townspeople catch a group of Nazi soldiers who had just corralled the whole town into the church and set it ablaze, laughing and watching as it burned.
What is justice for those men? Could the surviving townspeople even approximate the horrors the soldiers had wrought? Could the mothers who were burned with their children ever truly be avenged? And what of the people who must inflict torture in order for justice to prevail? Shoud a person who had never sought violence be forced into such brutality in order to make things right? When a man grabs a gun and put bullets in the group of Nazis and grants them the mercy they would never have shown in return, the viewer is left with an ounce of hope for mankind.
A justice which makes killers out of the enforcers seems awful indeed. Of course, those who deliberately cause death or harm should face consequences, should never have another opportunity to destroy others’ lives; but true justice is unattainable without becoming what one condemns. And we rely on forgiveness ourselves for our wrongdoing-what better way to ask for forgiveness than to offer it to others when given the chance?

a reply to: zosimov

In my experience, those that deserve justice, don’t usually receive it from the person they’ve wronged. It hopefully comes down the line from others, AKA karma.

To add, the majority of wrongdoings committed by people aren’t as harsh as murder. Due to that, I do wish for justice on them. If you treat people like sh!t, you deserve the same back on you.

With regards to forgiveness, the perpetrator has to have self awareness to know they have done something wrong. In most of my experiences, they don’t think they’ve done anything wrong in the first place. You can forgive them all you want. But if they don’t see what they’ve done wrong, it will only happen again.

a reply to: KKLOCO

Don't you think we've all done some wrong though?

I know I have. And as hard as I try, I still do sometimes; whether by careless word or lack of forethought or whatever.

But kudos to you if you've really done no harm to anyone. I strive to be more like that.

Not even God forgives unconditionally. Mercy and grace are offered by God, but they are conditioned upon repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ, your Lord. Most Christians have been taught this Kool Aid of willy-nilly forgiveness, of which total pacifism in the world would result in total triumph of evil. The Lord Jesus is clear that God ordains government to punish the criminal. I know of nowhere in scripture absolute, unconditional, total forgiveness of evil is taught, at most those that won't repent in personal sins and assaults the law doesn't handle being the objects of God's ultimate wrath and judgement. We are merely not to carry unhealthy grudges or be the agents of personal revenge, but, at the same time, to avoid bad company.

I simply leave anybody who's ever done me the most serious wrongs in God's hand, do not wish anything but that they repent, but, on the other hand, could have nothing to do with people that have not repented and would persist in evil. I cannot simply forgive them and welcome those unrepentant evil back into my company, welcoming other assaults, which would be what forgiveness means. Such forgiveness means, "You raped my wife. I forgive you. Come and rape my daughter, too. Obviously, I'll also have to forgive that, because I don't read the Bible, and my pastor is a lying idiot." You have to forgive your wife's rape, right, because you're Moron the Merciful, which makes you feel all holy and self righteous, though he remains an unrepentant rapist? Right? I think not! All you did was fail to protect your daughter and bring evil on her. Milquetoast preachers talk a lot about willy-nilly forgiveness, but here is what scripture says, on that count:

Luke 17:1-4 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."

Notice "if he repents" and "I repent", then forgive. This is the Lord Jesus teaching on forgiveness. By the way, repentance is not just saying you're sorry, it means action taken to turn away from sin and evil, not lip service. I doubt the Lord expected seven or more instances a day of repentance a norm, was rather setting the groundwork, that, where there is repentance, no matter how annoying, there should be forgiveness. I've never experienced anybody or heard of anybody turning from some evil seven times a day, then repeating some offense, like a sin machine gun. The Lord often made strong points, like a person having a beam in their eye, or swallowing a camel. In any case, there is no forgiveness required for anybody that does not turn from their evil. Period. The devil must love preachers teaching he can do whatever he wants, and you are obliged he can come back and do some more. You know, that's even facilitating more evil. Unconditional forgiveness sounds really pious. So do a lot of non-Biblical, false doctrines from hell.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

"Forgive them Father; they know not what they do."

-Jesus

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:21-22


PS did you even read through to the end of op or just stop when you thought you had the gist?

a reply to: zosimov

I can’t remember the exact Bible verse, but it goes something like:

‘Those without blame, cast the first stone.’

Of course I’ve wronged people in the past. Severity plays a huge role in this though. Saying or doing something stupid holds different weight than murder.

a reply to: KKLOCO

I completely agree there are many degrees of harm; and the ones mentioned in OP were mostly extreme.

On the other hand, I've come to a point where I kind of see that anything I do wrong is on the side of evil, no matter how small. I think that's what Jesus was trying to say when he compared looking upon a woman w/ lust to adultury and being in danger of hellfire by calling your brother a fool.

(I really should have put this thread in the religion forum.)

Anyway, thank you for the good discussion.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Scrutinizing

"Forgive them Father; they know not what they do."

-Jesus

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."
Matthew 18:21-22

You were just provided the whole Bible context of forgiving seven or seventy times in Luke. Also, the Lord Jesus said, "For they know not what they do." The Lord Jesus didn't say forgive them willy-nilly, because God murderers got to eat, too. The soldiers were putting to death a criminal, to their minds, just doing their job. Paul made a distinction his sin, in zeal against Christians, as Saul, was, at least, in the belief he was serving God. There is the whole Bible context of all doctrines, and scripture plainly given you requiring repentance. You don't believe that scripture, there's nothing more I can, or should say.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

Lol, Christians always be tryin to prove they're better at being Christians than others.

Jesus was hanging on the cross and talking about those who murdered him; unrepentant at that moment for certain.

Forgiveness is bigger than you or I could imagine, I'll bet.

If you can find a place in the OP where I said there is no such thing as consequence or that we should keep the company of bad people or let people rape our wives, then you might have a point.

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: zosimovThose without blame, cast the first stone.’

Not casting a stone is a different context than forgiveness. Their consciences were pricked they were sinners, too, nowhere saying they forgave the harlot. but could not condemn her without self condemnation. There's no scripture she was invited to supper at all their homes, subsequently. The Lord goes on to forgive the harlot, but then warns her to go and sin no more, not go turn some more tricks. He, in fact, just warned her she had better repent.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Scrutinizing
If you can find a place in the OP where I said there is no such thing as consequence or that we should keep the company of bad people or let people rape our wives, then you might have a point.

There is nowhere in the OP you said anything of repentance, of major, major sin. You proposed willy-nilly forgiveness. Maybe good thing you're not one of God's servants of the justice system, human government, He ordains.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

The OP was discussing our role regarding judgement, not the personal responsibility of one who does wrong.

The subsequent comments mentioned an ongoing striving to change and be more like Christ (an impossible goal in my opinion but perhaps you've already reached it? Are you an ordained judge here? Well done)

Or are you just trying to get some jabs in where you can?

a reply to: zosimov

lolz

You'll get some scathing posts but perhaps I know why.

Justice is easy.

Mercy is hard.

With "justice" we can perhaps convince ourselves that a wrong has been righted. We can fool ourselves into thinking what the victims of the injustice might feel.

With mercy? We have to step outside ourselves and recognize that we are imperfect, they are imperfect and to show a kindness where none has been shown. We almost have to emulate "God" in that aspect. That's hard.

Interesting question and to be honest? I don't honestly know if I am capable of showing that level of mercy because I'm as flawed and as egocentric as they come.

Darn it.

Now you made me think!

a reply to: zosimov

I suddenly feel like reading Lewis's Till We Have Faces again. To be honest, I don't remember the story much. It was part of the reading for a Lit class in college. So much other hectic reading that the story may have gotten crowded out.

I remember Come and See more. The ending seemed to me like an inevitability. Kind of like beyond the question of Justice or Mercy, just the way it had to be.

I really don't quite understand the notion of "forgive and forget". Only the wronged can forgive. Forgetting just doesn't seem to fit right. Moving on in life consciously aware of what horrors one is capable of seems more in line with avoiding the commission of future horrors.

As far as forgiving others wrongs done to me, well ... I just don't exact any penalty. Of course, there is the occasional person that I simply have nothing to do with in the future.

When you slap a lion across it's face, it won't seek mercy.

If you hit a rattlesnake with a stick it won't consider mercy.

They are animals.

We are animals.

Our only distinction is that we understand the concept of mercy. We have the potential of mercy.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I love your humility DB and how you still stand by your principles. I've learned a lot about laughing at my folly (although I'm still bad at it) from reading your posts over the past several years; I really admire that about you--thank you!!

a reply to: pthena

Till We Have Faces was in my college lit repertoire as well--don't think I would have heard about it otherwise (haven't seen it in many references over the years, have you?).

I was so struck by it I've revisited it several times since, each time hits me like the first; it's a pretty deep and interesting read.

I like what you wrote about forgiveness (and not exacting penalty--isn't that what mercy is?); reminds me of Dostoevsky's chapter about the suffering of children--no one but the wronged can forgive.

Thanks for another thoughtful reply. Let me know if you read the book again, and what you think!

Hope you have a good day! A robin stopped by my yard today--good chance this was the little one we discussed last year, all grown up.

a reply to: zosimov

(haven't seen it in many references over the years, have you?).

No.

I haven't re-read it since, either. I'm going to put that on my to do list.
--------
Good chance.

Now I need to see how territorial robins are.
There are some wrens in the yard. So far none have started nests on that big beam by the driveway though. I should put up a bird feeder to encourage them to stay out of the reach of cats.

=========
I just found an online pdf copy of the book: till-we-have-faces-a-myth-retold.

That's one thing done from my to do list.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

You proposed willy-nilly forgiveness.

I think the OP wants us to to contemplate mercy verses justice, and has conflated forgiveness with mercy. Mercy is giving someone a lighter sentence than they deserve. It an opportunity for salvation, not absolution from guilt.

There is nowhere in the OP you said anything of repentance, of major, major sin.

So, mercy must be earned, through contrition and the admittance of guilt?

Maybe good thing you're not one of God's servants of the justice system, human government, He ordains.

Fortunately, the United States of America has a "justice" system that allows people the right not to incriminate themselves. You may have heard of the 5th Amendment.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Very thoughtful response, thank you.

I think you're right in that I at times in that post conflated forgiveness with mercy.

(Love how you said mercy is an opportunity for salvation, not absolution from guilt).