Anyone heard of the "Wedge of Aiud?

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Gothmog

True but wasn't there a Belt buckle made from aluminum found in a Chinese general's tomb. Not to mention the chromium found on the swords from the buried army.
None of the modern excavator tips for sale on Ali Baba look anything like it.www.alibaba.com... vLV2s&s=p

OOPARTs or something got dropped ?

Same thing, it is then all about how long ago it got dropped?.

This one is possibly fake but if not opens up a whole can of worm's, it is not necessarily evidence of time travel however but of perhaps parallel reality's out of sync in time sometimes bleeding into one another as another alternative explanation to the time travel argument.


Of course if someone in the future creates a quantum weapon of some kind these artefacts could be evidence of an explosion in time, wormhole like shrapnel from such an event scattered backwards and possible forward in time and into other parallel reality's as well, it would explain oddities that should not be were they are found as well but since wormholes even those connecting different points in time are likely extremely short lived and most likely all below the level of size that even a subatomic particle could pass through it would have to be an explosion in time AND space on the order of a white hole size of energy to be able to overlay fragmented reality's into already existing past reality and to create such large macro wormholes capable of allowing actual macromolecular and larger structures to pass through them.

Sorry just going off on a tangent of thought, too much star trek.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
Any idea how much it weighs?

2.300 kg according to the 1995 RUFOR article here, see the top of page 21.

Debunking Wedge of Aiud and other random aluminum from the past. Part 6

a reply to: LABTECH767

The problem with aluminum is Its extraction requires a full understanding of how to extract it from bauxite. to make it useful it has to have additives, which also requires a deeper understanding of alloying metals. Which requires a greater understanding than that of smelting. In fact, any society that can do this is well on the way to a fully industrialized society.If this was found in any core samples like the Greenland ice cores which show lead use in Roman times. Would it ever see the light of day? A cyclical thing like ice ages would not necessarily wipe such a civilization totally off the face of the Earth, but during their occurrence, the areas of habitation might restrict the players within certain latitudes, which if subjected to another cataclysm could leave pockets of practical knowledge which would then be a survival tool.
The areas like where the polygonal walls are situated along with the statues holding the iconic handbag are worldwide but along the corridors of latitudes which were ice-free during those times.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Same thing, it is then all about how long ago it got dropped?.

I would say a few days , during the process.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Alien Abduct


Duralimium is 94 percent aluminum and 4 percent copper with a bit of magnesium. The wedge is a more complicated alloy.

The numbers i gave in the post you are referring to for the percentages of metals found in the "wedge" is from a source provided in a post on the top of the first page in this thread.

In my opinion the wedge in question has been properly debunked as any sort of Alien tech and identified in the post on the first page (I think like the second or third post, it has like 6 links all in a row) by information provided by a member here by the name of Harte in those links.

The wedge has been identified as a tooth from a drag line bucket. The shape matches and so does the elemental make up. There was a smelting plant that manufactured those about two kilometers from where the wedge was found.

As far as the other (somewhat) unusual metals found in the wedge, this could be explained by how these wedges were commonly casted with recycled aluminum and therefore would be expected to have a bit of other "contaminate" metals in them.

The reason for the thick patina which could be construed as having taken 400+ years to develop is explained by the high corrosive properties of the alloy and the acidic level of the soil. This likely caused the wedge to form a thicker patina prematurely.

I hope this clears things up for you. If you want more details I highly recommend reading those links provided towards the top of the first page in this thread. The explanation given is more than reasonable and very logical.

Anyone heard of the "Wedge of Aiud?

I'm from Transylvania and the first time I've heard of this,I think,was last year when it appeared on Ancient Aliens.Interesting, but was more impressed/shocked by the alleged 400 million year old hammer they showed.

Maybe humans are much older than we think we are.Maybe there were small but advanced/mechanized civilizations before us.Maybe there has always been an old group of people that know this and are actively trying to suppress it.Perhaps Earth is a huge experiment and maybe civilizations were created and destroyed by the powers that be to "build back better".

a reply to: Alien Abduct

If it was from an excavator bucket it would have to be hollow like it fits over a form that is part of the bucket. Like a shoe over a foot.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Maybe you want to start another thread?.

Now can you stay on topic and stop posting about other ooparts.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Alien Abduct

If it was from an excavator bucket it would have to be hollow like it fits over a form that is part of the bucket. Like a shoe over a foot.

The wedge has a hollow cylindrical hole where it would fit like a "shoe" onto a cylinder shaped "foot" on the excavator bucket. Then there's another hollow hole where a pin would be inserted to secure it. The 9th link I posted in the debunking series shows these sketches of a supposed mounting method which the author suspects that due to its design would fit on a clamshell type excavator, which would also be consistent with the depth it was found at since clamshell excavators can be operated rather deep from cables:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Debunking Wedge of Aiud and other random aluminum from the past. Part 9


These cables allow the clamshells to go somewhat deep:
Dredging


I mention that because the 1995 magazine article says it was found "sitting in a deep layer of about 10 meters" and I don't think that depth would be a problem for that clamshell on cables arrangement, but it might be a bit deep for some other kinds of excavator buckets which aren't mounted on cables.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Looks like part of a tank tread.

Scenario:

Tank rolls into an existing bomb crater for protection/concealment. AT round from enemy damages tank. Tread needs repair work. It is done at some point and tank rolls out of crater leaving some of the old parts behind over time the crater is filled. Tank parts at 30ft depth is the result.

a reply to: 35Foxtrot

That is a really good answer and IF there has ever been any heavy military action or training in the area (I have no idea if there has) also very plausible as a solution to the problem.

Secret Knowledge I accidentally starred your comment, 'sorry about that'

Ever hear of the guy that looked at one single weathered stone and was asked what it was part of?, I guess not.


There was a South American wheeled toy someone dug up that had wheels, a long neck and a movable head that looked oddly like a bulldozer though while ancient it would be far too recent to match the likely time frame for the Wedge, however it does suggest that perhaps Dozers may have existed in the past? just like all those ancient airplane models, I believe the Archaeologists settled on it being a stylized representation of a Jaguar (The cat not the car of course).

a reply to: Tinel


This thread got me looking into that hammer, I agree it is much more impressive than this wedge. I've been thinking about making a thread on that hammer.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: LABTECH767

The problem with aluminum is Its extraction requires a full understanding of how to extract it from bauxite. to make it useful it has to have additives, which also requires a deeper understanding of alloying metals. Which requires a greater understanding than that of smelting. In fact, any society that can do this is well on the way to a fully industrialized society.If this was found in any core samples like the Greenland ice cores which show lead use in Roman times. Would it ever see the light of day? A cyclical thing like ice ages would not necessarily wipe such a civilization totally off the face of the Earth, but during their occurrence, the areas of habitation might restrict the players within certain latitudes, which if subjected to another cataclysm could leave pockets of practical knowledge which would then be a survival tool.
The areas like where the polygonal walls are situated along with the statues holding the iconic handbag are worldwide but along the corridors of latitudes which were ice-free during those times.

Brilliant point's, I agree the discovery and use of Aluminium would also indicate an extremely advanced level of scientific understanding.

Remember though the glacial maximums (we are actually in an ice age right now called the Quaternary glaciation period) ages are also accompanied during them and during the glacial minimum periods variable volcanism, volcanic activity could also devastate civilization, look how dependent we are for our society's survival on the food to table and all the stages in between from the farm to the packaging to the distribution and how our retail has meant we no longer grow our own food but buy from supermarkets etc.

It really would not take much to end our civilization, a massive volcanic output could disrupt photosynthesis and yes while WE are perhaps capable of finding a work around if pushed to do so such as using hydroponics a sudden shock to our society like that would cost millions perhaps even billions of lives.

Add to that possible pandemics, even wars and it is even possible that by the time of the past Glacial maximum - or the one before that - beginning such a civilization would already have collapsed due to such stress, they may have left odd things behind, armed factions may have existed for up to century's or even longer but with no way to replace or repair there aging weapons of the god's there technology would have soon been replaced by more primitive arm's.

It takes a lot of engineering to build a factory, a lot of understanding to know where to mine or drill for resources and such a shock to society and a dark age may have meant all such knowledge was lost except as legend's among a handful of survivors.

The truth is we can only conjecture, we have to wonder at all the possible causes for such a civilization to pass away, what percentage of our own society would have to die to make it so that our civilization also ended this way.

War is an easier explanation but so too is a pandemic, city's are human nature, we congregate but this also put's all our egg's into one basket for each city, virus, chemical war, bacteria or even nuclear war would wipe out not only the ordinary but the scientists, the engineers and the leadership of any such society, with our power grid gone we would be helpless and our society would likely collapse with just a few doomsday preppers having any chance of surviving, they would be unlikely to ever rebuild society in the aftermath and there children would become tribes, over time metal would be used to make weapons and actively robbed out from the ruins, the buildings would collapse and erode away in just a few thousand years so given a hundred thousand or five hundred thousand or a million years or a hundred million years what little would remain.

Even plastic break's down slowly but it break's down.

Of course there are far more outlandish but not impossible answers.

Alien invasion and strip mining of the refined resources left by a former civilization that they maybe destroyed is one such, imagine a future earth corporation, we know how unethical and greedy they are but imagine one finding a planet chock full of refined metal's and materials as well as exotic materials, now imagine them destroying that civilization then coming down to strip mine the planet, because of the biohazards they may even enslave the survivors and make them worship them as Gods (strip mining the refined resources from the ruined city's is going to take quite some time), even perhaps genetically tamper with them to dumb them down and make them more compliant as well as making them breed faster as they are a disposable workforce.

We can only speculate but?.

You could even imagine a nomadic civilization that moved around a galaxy that would plant seed colonies not to spread it's influence but to create a harvest for each return past that world, at each such world they would harvest refined materials etc and so live by feeding off an farming such civilizations but always preventing them from getting too advanced.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Since I play "devil's advocate," sometimes, for poops and chuckles, who's to say that particular excavator tooth (or similar widget) didn't pop off an excavator 12,000 yrs ago?

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Since I play "devil's advocate," sometimes, for poops and chuckles, who's to say that particular excavator tooth (or similar widget) didn't pop off an excavator 12,000 yrs ago?

There are so many conflicting accounts.
An older account by Florin Gheorghe suggests the bones found near the wedge are mastadon bones. Mastadons lived around a million years ago, up to 800,000 years ago, so age estimates for the wedge have gone up to a million years.
But we get a different account from the Romanian UFO magazine article in 1995 saying the museum curator thought they were hairy rhino bones.

Debunking Wedge of Aiud and other random aluminum from the past. Part 5

As mentioned, the book sets out Florin Gheorghe's idea that fossil bones found alongside the object, in the same geological layer, are mastodon bones.

General Manager Mr. George Lazarov made in this regard, a number of extremely important points. According to his statements, the bones found belong to a species of hairy rhinoceros. ["rinocerul pāros"]

These hairy rhinoceros lived within our country's geographical area during the ​​Pleistocene period (10 000 and 80 000 years ago)(...).

Given the conflicting accounts of the types of bones, we can ask who is the expert who examined the bones, what did he really say, where is his report, or are both these conflicting reports equally unreliable?

The science of the formation of corrosion layers on aluminum is a very complex topic.
Some have claimed that the corrosion on the aluminum does suggest an old age. But then we have yet another conflicting age claim here from the National Museum of Transylvanian History, Cluj-Napoca:

Debunking Wedge of Aiud and other random aluminum from the past. Part 4

"One of the most outstanding exhibits is a metallic object discovered in 1973 near Aiud in the same soil strata as mastodon bones. It closely resembled a landing gear leg and analysis found it enclosed in a yellowish-white oxide layer over a millimeter thick. It concluded that the wedge has existed for 250,000 years.

If that was true that it's 250,000 years old, that would rule out your idea that it's 12,000 years old.

So unreliable age estimates on the wedge have ranged from 400 years to a million years, but try to find any science on those estimates. I've tried and it doesn't seem to exist, and as the author of the debunking links I posted mentioned, the alloy of aluminum used in the wedge is subject to galvanic corrosion, which acts like a small battery to deposit corrosion faster than say an alloy less subject to such a galvanic response.

If other aluminum objects were found in archeological digs in better controlled conditions (like photographing artifacts as they are found), which suggested an older civilization using such aluminum, that would be interesting. But finding a single object like this where the circumstances seem quite dubious, is insufficient to suggest 12,000 year old aluminum. The credibility of the entire account leaves much to be desired with such large discrepancies like not even agreeing on the type of bones found, with no reliable sources to resolve such discrepancies.

a reply to: Baddogma

Fair enough, but when it comes to making a machine for a specific purpose, the question is would geographically separate societies come up with the same basic engineering and the same conclusions for doing it. For instance drilling, a hole can be done in a few ways but a drill bit of a certain style would always be the end product. Then gearing being a sophisticated level of leverage becomes more sophisticated with a lot of difficult maths involved in something like the Antikythera mechanism. Plus the material the machine is made from if many other metals were available at the time of production bronze would have been a good choice anyway, but then its sheet bronze, where making the sheet itself requires a great level of sophistication. Its embarrassing to mainstream archeology that the more ancient the Egyptian artifacts are at a the level of sophistication far higher than the later stuff. Like a fishhook, no matter where it came from has to be a hook. A boat has to be boat-shaped. So if a human society got organized industrially millenniums before the present, a lot of the stuff would have to look similar to what we would recognize today. Thats it function dictates form.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Alien Abduct

If it was from an excavator bucket it would have to be hollow like it fits over a form that is part of the bucket. Like a shoe over a foot.

The wedge has a hollow cylindrical hole where it would fit like a "shoe" onto a cylinder shaped "foot" on the excavator bucket. Then there's another hollow hole where a pin would be inserted to secure it. The 9th link I posted in the debunking series shows these sketches of a supposed mounting method which the author suspects that due to its design would fit on a clamshell type excavator, which would also be consistent with the depth it was found at since clamshell excavators can be operated rather deep from cables:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Debunking Wedge of Aiud and other random aluminum from the past. Part 9

These cables allow the clamshells to go somewhat deep:
Dredging

I mention that because the 1995 magazine article says it was found "sitting in a deep layer of about 10 meters" and I don't think that depth would be a problem for that clamshell on cables arrangement, but it might be a bit deep for some other kinds of excavator buckets which aren't mounted on cables.

I do believe you nailed it right on the head. This is the best explanation for this wedge. Just looking at the wedge you can see that smaller hole obviously reinforces the entire wedge in this configuration serving two purposes. One keeping the wedge attached and two reinforcing the wedge from spinning and most of the force at the steel center peg.

It's funny those Ancient Aliens guys on History channel talking about the patina on the wedge makes it much older because it happened to be found next to a fossil, geez lol.

I did some metal detecting on my own 1.3 acre of property and found a brass plate that had so much patina rust it look like a rusted steel plate. After putting a magnet on it, it turned out to be 100% brass, which is much less corrosion resistant than aluminum is! I had to take a electric drill wire brush to it. It was just a old oval shaped brass nameplate that fell off a farm tractor or heavy equipment in early 1940's. Probably the very one that built the homestead. lol

There are in fact some very strong aluminum alloys that have a tremendous amount of strength such as 6061-T6 developed in 1935 and 7075-T7 which has double the strength of T6. On average tensile strength of 240 Mpa (Megapascals) equal to 34 Ksi (kilopounds of force per square inch). That's a lot of strength boy's and girl's!

In overall, just generally looking at the wedge it obviously fell off some heavy equipment. Finding it at 30ft next to a fossil is just a erroneous assumption as to the age. As heavy as it is and as wet as it is next to a river it could have sunk that depth over the years. Heavy things sink in mud there is nothing mysterious about it. So the depth it was found doesn't mean anything. There has been entire tanks found sunk and buried in the mud that started up ran after fixing them.

a reply to: sean

Best, most logical and actually most common sense answer.

(unlike my last two posts - I have - moments)

Well posted.

This one needs to be kept as it is perhaps the best explanation I have read for that find and you are correct as to those tank's, not sure they ran without a good deal of restoration but periodically they are still finding them around Europe, rarely WW1 but most often WW2 vintage mostly in eastern Europe though they have also found Sherman tank's and others in Western Europe usually in the banks of rivers etc.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
Who uses aluminum on excavator buckets? No one does.

I have operated several bulldozers and different earth moving rigs and none of them use aluminum.

High carbon steel.

I heard somewhere that they do use aluminum because steel can spark causing gas explosions in mines.

a reply to: anonentity

Its obviously an ancient cowbell. That somebody put around the neck of there mastodon. They were obviously the predecessors of modern cow herders, or maybe cat herders. A very big cat. With tusks, and could probably crush a human pretty easily underfoot. And sometimes groggy in the early mornings.

But ya. Ancient Cowbell theory. Thats my theory at least on what it could be. Unless off course it turns out to be none man made? Then its a classic case of ancient astronaut cow bell theory.