Username Weise here at ATS was Minn. Shooter Killer

The Real Need For Understanding

Originally posted by weirdo
Majic you need to understand that what Weise did is not typical of many crimes committed daily.It has been the worst shooting since Columbine in 1999.

I think I'm reasonably well-informed about crimes and their nature, and I don't recall making the assumption you are rebuffing here.

I did say that people do evil things all the time. I did not say that kids shoot up schools all the time, and there is a pretty big difference between those concepts.

Of the evil things that people do, shooting people in a school is just one of a seemingly endless variety of possibilities. Shooting innocent people anywhere, however, is definitely an act of evil.

My point is that people do evil all the time. While it's unsettling to think of a fellow ATS member being a mass murderer, the truth is that in any population such as ours, there's a chance that a person like Jeff Weise will be among us.

And not just him. With over 36,000 registered members around the world, there are undoubtedly plenty of other ATSers who do evil and are capable of acts such as these. That's just the way probability works.

Contrary to apparent misconceptions expressed by some ATS members, crimes such as these do not necessarily involve mind control, conspiracies or anything like that -- although they most certainly can.

Sometimes a person just snaps and starts killing other people.

It's nothing new, and while school massacres like these are thankfully not all that common, they are certainly serious enough crimes to warrant questions, public investigation and analysis.

Mind Control Versus Mind Reading

Originally posted by weirdo
This type of crime is not as common as you believe and the fact that Weises posts are on here allows people an insite into an event that most people wouldn`t have any connection with.

When you make claims regarding what I believe, instead of what you believe -- which is all you really know -- you are pretty much guaranteeing that you are going to be wrong. And sure enough, you are wrong.

You don't appear to have a clear idea of what I actually believe, so I recommend not trying to put words in my mouth. I think I'm reasonably capable of expressing myself without your “help”.

As for the insights provided by Weise's posts here, they appear to raise more questions than answers.

Consequently, many ATS members, myself included, are making assumptions about him and the case that are probably wrong.

We are free to be wrong, however, which is one of the many blessings of intellectual liberty that is rarely appreciated for its true value.

Criminal Leagues

Originally posted by weirdo
This type of shooting is extremely rare which makes it more shocking for people who have read
thoughts from Weise.This has put Weise in a differant league to murder,rape etc etc which is one of the many complicated reasons shooters do this type of crime.

As I clarified above, I agree that these types of shootings are rare, but I think it is misguided to say that they are somehow in a “differant league to murder,rape etc etc”.

A surprisingly significant percentage of murderers murder more than one person. There are a lot of people walking around loose in U.S. society right now, for example, who have murdered more people than Jeff Weise did.

The idea that someone as young as Weise could be a mass murderer is disturbing, but there are inner-city gang members younger than Weise who have killed more people than he did -- and are not arrested for the murders.

Teenagers kill other kids and family members all the time -- sometimes entire families. The more heinous incidents are reported nationally, but quite often, child murderers don't get as much press attention as one might assume. Sometimes state laws prohibit the public release of the child's name, for example.

And it's definitely not a phenomenon that's unique to the United States. Child murderers can be found in all nations and cultures, but don't tend to get the press coverage they get here.

We can infer all sorts of things from a tragedy such as this one, but in doing so, I think it's important to maintain a sense of perspective, which is what I'm recommending in this case.

Probably the only person who really knows what actually happened is Jeff Weise, and he is no longer available for comment.

Psycho-Political Implications

Originally posted by MemoryShock
An ongoing psyops doesn't need "pressing legislation."

Granted. That was a bit of a sarcastic observation hearkening back to the '90s when there was an astronomical correlation between cases like this one and pending legislation in Congress.

It was, in fact, the awareness of that very curious phenomenon which led me to what would ultimately become an interest in Information Warfare.

Mood Control

Originally posted by MemoryShock
What other reason could there be......I think the general mindset of a population is an underestimated concept......keep them divided because together they can move mountains....not saying that's why, but making a point that 'connecting the dots' where current events are concerned can and probably does include intangibles.....

There are definitely ongoing campaigns to control public moods in the U.S. and around the world.

Thousands of them, in fact, most of them conducted by non-governmental (i.e. commercial) organizations, and all of them have their purposes.

Staged crimes have been and can be a component of such campaigns. Again, in the U.S. in the '90s, it was both rampant and brazen in the political arena, although the use of such tactics dates back much, much farther than a mere decade ago.

These days there seems to be more subtlety in these operations, as technologies and competencies in the field of “public diplomacy” have improved and become more refined.

Schizophrenic Or Just Plain Crazy?

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Have to say that I disagree....highly disturbed and subject to anti-social subject matter......but not necassarily schizo. His socio/pyschopathic tendency sounds like a response to his experience.......parents, disillusioned environment, etc.

Of course, I don't know one way or the other and most certainly could be wrong.

There are some commonalities, however, between Weise's biography, family history and behavior and what I have noted in my own research on schizophrenia.

The fact that there is usually a “chicken and egg” question involving the subject's environment is very common in cases of schizophrenia. It rarely occurs in a vacuum.

And lest we forget, there are many ATS members who demonstrate almost beyond doubt schizophrenic behavior in their posts.

After all, if “everyone's out to get you”, what kind of websites will you tend to frequent?

When Not Enough Information Is All You Need

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Also, there is insufficient information for an internet diagnosis.......

Definitely. But more than enough information for wild speculation, which is, after all, part of what makes ATS so much fun.

Originally posted by MemoryShock

Look at the way Wiese described it.....evil and coming at him....something that would be fearful...the command to shoot would be the alleviation of that fear/anxiety.

Exactly. Why does the dog have to represent this shooting? Why couldn't it represent his mental instability, the voice telling him to shoot the dog being his inner desire to be healthy, and his shooting it being his attempt to get well (alleviating his inner pain)???

Originally posted by Woodside
Exactly. Why does the dog have to represent this shooting? Why couldn't it represent his mental instability, the voice telling him to shoot the dog being his inner desire to be healthy, and his shooting it being his attempt to get well (alleviating his inner pain)???

The dog doesn't have to represent the shooting. The dog could represent fear instilled. To manipulate someone is to incorporate fear, etc. The dog could just be one symbolic representation.

I'm not trying to liken this dream or post as motivation for the shooting. I'm trying to draw corrolations between his expression and the possibility that he was subject to mind control. Imo, deciding to shoot up a school of people whom you have a basic identification isn't an easy decision to make...........especially on your own.

Asking To See The Manager

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I'm trying to draw corrolations between his expression and the possibility that he was subject to mind control.

This, of course, is the bread and butter of ATS, and if we didn't consider the possibility that this was some sort of psyop, I think we would be gravely remiss in our duties as “conspiracy nuts”.

One of the things that can make pinning down a “Manchurian Candidate” difficult is the fact that a competent operator, for a mission like this, will choose a subject that already has a history of dysfunction and instability to carry out the “hit”.

Unfortunately, such people are also quite capable of doing things like this without being under someone else's control.

Complicating things even more is the fact that many mentally ill people, especially schizophrenics, tend to believe that “the government” or “aliens” or “demons” are controlling their minds -- or trying to.

The capper is that agencies such as the CIA have been proven in congressional hearings to have done precisely that in projects such as MKULTRA and others like it.

So a case like this could be just another case of deranged psychopathy or in fact some sort of psyop.

It's unlikely that any of us will ever know for sure one way or the other, but I'm really not getting a “psyop” vibe from this case.

Of course, maybe that's exactly what they want me to think, and so it goes.

Probably Not A Member Of The Booster Club

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Imo, deciding to shoot up a school of people whom you have a basic identification isn't an easy decision to make...........especially on your own.

Everything I have seen so far suggests that Jeff Weise considered himself an outcast and alone in this world.

There is no indication in anything I have seen to suggest that he had any feelings of fondness for his school or classmates. Just the opposite, in fact.

His embrace of Nazi ideologies, even though he was a Chippewa and therefore considered “disposable” by the very same ideologies he espoused, indicates that he not only felt no sense of attachment to his tribe, but apparently resented being a Chippewa.

In other words, I don't think he really felt a sense of “basic identification” with the people he killed at all.

Thus he could murder them with a smile on his face.

Originally posted by Majic

Unfortunately, such people are also quite capable of doing things like this without being under someone else's control.

I'm going to take the flip side and agree, that yes, failing to acknowledge that dysfunction happens would cause us to be remiss in our attempts to rationally discern what is truth and what is not.

I do believe, however, that due to the nature of the lack of complete information dooms us to an endless cycle of "it could be....."

Originally posted by Majic
The capper is that agencies such as the CIA have been proven in congressional hearings to have done precisely that in projects such as MKULTRA and others like it.

This is an interesting fact........my reasoning is, if they went to the trouble to get the information in the first place, it was to at some point implement it. Also, if they got away with it before, who's to say they aren't now?

Questions that are admittedly biased to the "its got to be a conspiracy" mindset, but then again, that's the reason why I'm here....

Originally posted by Majic
It's unlikely that any of us will ever know for sure one way or the other....

The truth, ain't it.....

[edit on 27-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by Majic
Definitely. But more than enough information for wild speculation, which is, after all, part of what makes ATS so much fun.

Can't believe I missed this post, Majic, and have to say well put........I agree that public diplomacy has been refined greatly......along with many other forms of mood/mind control etc. But that subject is definetely another thread or two......

The quote above is worth citing....I guess that is part of why ATS is enjoyable.........

Quote Everything I have seen so far suggests that Jeff Weise considered himself an outcast and alone in this world.
There is no indication in anything I have seen to suggest that he had any feelings of fondness for his school or classmates. Just the opposite, in fact. ==Majic

I am curious to know if your assessment includes the last line of his post:

Hey, what can I say? I basically have no personal life outside of school. == Weise

taken from here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 28-3-2005 by nightwing]

I havent been on ATS in awhile so this is the first I have seen of this Its shocking to say the least.

I never came across any of his post before this thread or they never stood out in my memory. Looking over his threads now they do indeed seem to raise some red flags but hindsight is always 20/20.

Even if I was well aware of this poster I doubt I would have ever thought anything of it.

Probably Not A Viable Candidate For Student Body President

Originally posted by nightwing
I am curious to know if your assessment includes the last line of his post:

Hey, what can I say? I basically have no personal life outside of school. == Weise

I don't see that as an assertion which indicates popularity, attachment or even necessarily interest.

School attendance is compulsory, and school is what the social lives of kids his age naturally tend to revolve around. That doesn't necessarily mean they like school or are accepted by other students.

The totality of the information I have seen indicates an intelligent but detached and confused teenager who adopted bizarre behavior and appearance to publicly symbolize his feelings of isolation and lack of a sense of belonging.

I seriously doubt that his adoption of “National Socialism” as his political ideology would be considered a popular move by fellow members of his tribe or fellow students at his school.

I think the MSN member profile pointed to by Vowles and the personal web page it points to give a much clearer picture of Jeff Weise's mindset than any single quotation can.

I think the fact that some less astute among us are consistently failing to realize, is that this young man idolized Hitler's ideals of racial separation and purity (I think this fact alone contradicts what people are saying about Weisse being a 'smart' kid - everyone knows isolation and racial 'purity' lead to inbreeding and retardation - just look at the British Monarchy, or the Ozark mountain clans - there are hundreds more cases, probably thousands, but you get the point). It's conceivable to want your race to be pure, and isolated (which would be in line with Hitler's dogmatic spewings) without wanting yourself to die, or be burned in an oven. Weisse wanted to do for his people what Hitler tried to do for Germans, and regardless of how foolish that may make him out to be based on what we know about genetics, it doesn't make him an idiot "for not realizing Hitler hated him too."

Now, that that's out of the way. Nygdan, what are you doing here? I'm a sick individual for seeing conspiracies? Look around man, and if you don't like what you see, leave. I have my theories on Columbine and Port Arthur too, but I doubt you'd be interested in hearing them, since you've clearly chosen to embrace ignorance by making the claim that NOT looking for inconsistencies is somehow an ideal to aspire to.

Now that that's out of the way, congratulations are in order for those people who are willing to do their intelectual duty no matter the emotional cost.

All those who are trying to discern what about his posts point out his intent are wasting their time. More often than not people say a lot of things, and little of what comes out of their mouth (in the case of ATS, their brain/keyboard) is useful for determining intent. The common thread between serial killers is that they are described by neighbors and friends, even loved ones in some cases, as quiet, friendly, a normal person. The common thread between school shooters is that they're outsiders. Now, there are lots of nice, 'normal' people in the world, and there are lots of outsiders. You could try to lock them all up to prevent these tragedies, or you can accept the fact that there's no way to reliably single people out for investigation preemptively. People snap for all kinds of reasons, some snap and kill themselves, others snap and kill strangers, or family members, or even children. It's a break from reality, and there's nothing to do but treat the source - the metastasizing hypocritical illusion we commonly call America.

And finally, a note on the medication issue. It does appear he was medicated, and it does appear he was abusing drugs and alcohol while taking medication - as previously stated by Byrd and other members that's a dangerous game to play. The medications are in some cases very helpful when properly used, in some cases not helpful at all or even detrimental when properly used, and in almost every case they're dangerous and unpredictable when used in conjunction with drugs and/or alcohol.

So, I'm sorry if I offended anyone for wanting the truth, and I'm sorry if people see it as disrespectful to ask tough questions during this sensitive time - but that's the reality of investigation.

I didn't flinch when it came time to investigate 9/11, despite the fact that my mother almost lost her life in the attacks, we both lost our jobs, I lost a friend, and she lost many. I didn't hesitate to point out and follow up on inconsistencies, because that's just the right thing to do, no matter the difficulty level associated with doing so. I breathed deep of that grey dust, I was THERE that day, downtown, in the thick of it, being held back by firemen with tears in their eyes, knowing my friend Pablo had most likely responded to the incident, knowing my mother was trying to make her way home through the throng, or worse... And still I never allowed myself the release of blind anger and reactionary violence. I followed up on that incident, and I intend to do so with this incident. Now, most likely this was just a tragedy, no conspiracy, no sinister motive - but that doesn't mean you don't go digging.

We owe it to this young man gone from us, we owe it to his murdered family, and we owe it to ourselves to be unflinching in our search for the truth.

The principle inconsistencies have been mentioned, so I'm not going to rehash, but I will ask everyone to think critically about the situation and see what you can come up with.

cryptome.org...

Check out the short story Weise allegedly wrote at the link. "Surviving the Dead" is about an attack at this school--by zombies! But at the end it is revealed to be just another secret government experiment, which is perhaps why the media hasn't seized on it.

Originally posted by Majic
The Real Need For Understanding

I think I'm reasonably well-informed about crimes and their nature, and I don't recall making the assumption you are rebuffing here.

Your comments would suggest otherwise.

I did say that people do evil things all the time. I did not say that kids shoot up schools all the time, and there is a pretty big difference between those concepts.

You are trying to suggest that crimes of this nature happen all the time. Someones perception of evil happening all the time isn`t in the same context of this crime.What Weise did is not an everyday occurance.

Of the evil things that people do, shooting people in a school is just one of a seemingly endless variety of possibilities. Shooting innocent people anywhere, however, is definitely an act of evil.

My point is that people do evil all the time. While it's unsettling to think of a fellow ATS member being a mass murderer, the truth is that in any population such as ours, there's a chance that a person like Jeff Weise will be among us.

I very much doubt there is a person on here that is a murder.If you can suggest any evidance to back up my incorrection.

And not just him. With over 36,000 registered members around the world, there are undoubtedly plenty of other ATSers who do evil and are capable of acts such as these. That's just the way probability works.

This comment suggest you don`t grasp the nature of the crime Weise committed.

Contrary to apparent misconceptions expressed by some ATS members, crimes such as these do not necessarily involve mind control, conspiracies or anything like that -- although they most certainly can.

Sometimes a person just snaps and starts killing other people.

Again a lack of understand of Psycology, people do not just wake up one morning and decide to kill relatives then members of the public.

When you make claims regarding what I believe, instead of what you believe -- which is all you really know -- you are pretty much guaranteeing that you are going to be wrong. And sure enough, you are wrong.

You don't appear to have a clear idea of what I actually believe, so I recommend not trying to put words in my mouth. I think I'm reasonably capable of expressing myself without your “help”.

I am making claims on the content of your writing and your abillity to write rubbish on a subject you have obviously no knowledge of.I don`t have any doubts that you are capable of expression yourselve, just the lack of knowledge and the authorutive way you try to write as if you no everything

Consequently, many ATS members, myself included, are making assumptions about him and the case that are probably wrong.

That again you can make the assumption they are wrong, you show a lack of respect as you could be wrong and other members could be right?

We are free to be wrong, however, which is one of the many blessings of intellectual liberty that is rarely appreciated for its true value.

You seem to have a hard time admitting people could be right.

As I clarified above, I agree that these types of shootings are rare, but I think it is misguided to say that they are somehow in a “differant league to murder,rape etc etc”.

A surprisingly significant percentage of murderers murder more than one person. There are a lot of people walking around loose in U.S. society right now, for example, who have murdered more people than Jeff Weise did.

Really misguided no if you look at FBI, serious crime units they tend to deal with multiple random murders rather than some guy/girl that stabes a violent partner to death.The nature of the person capable of random masss killing makes them very dangerous.The importance law enforcement agencies put on detecting and catching these type of criminals is a measure of the LEAGUE there in.

The idea that someone as young as Weise could be a mass murderer is disturbing, but there are inner-city gang members younger than Weise who have killed more people than he did -- and are not arrested for the murders.

Can you back up this ridicoulous statement.

Teenagers kill other kids and family members all the time -- sometimes entire families. The more heinous incidents are reported nationally, but quite often, child murderers don't get as much press attention as one might assume. Sometimes state laws prohibit the public release of the child's name, for example.

Again this has to be one of the most unintelligent statements l have yet to find on ATS.Again do you have any evidence to substanciate these claims or are you in position to know it just not prove it ?

And it's definitely not a phenomenon that's unique to the United States. Child murderers can be found in all nations and cultures, but don't tend to get the press coverage they get here.

Again any evidance please mention countries crimes etc etc.

We can infer all sorts of things from a tragedy such as this one, but in doing so, I think it's important to maintain a sense of perspective, which is what I'm recommending in this case.

Maybe you should keep to the ethic of ATS which is disscussion.You can recommend all you want,but you are way off any understanding of this subject.Please read and comment others post but don`t try to judge,advise,recommend to people who you have no knowledge of.You have an opinion sure but try hard to understand that you could be wrong.

Probably the only person who really knows what actually happened is Jeff Weise, and he is no longer available for comment.

Psych profiles and knowledge gained from individuals who have carried out mass murder of this kind we have learn`t to understand the reasons,causes.

This is interesting, sad, but interesting. A survey conducted last year at Red Lake High School found that out of 56 students, half the girls, and twenty percent of boys had tried to kill themselves.

www.cnn.com...

According to the above link, those numbers are about triple the national average.

There is obviously a very severe social problem that needs to be brought out into the light. I for one, am astounded by the levels of hopelessness we see today in young people. For God's sake, they should be the ONLY people with a great deal of hope, they have their whole lives ahead of them.

Perhaps the problem is poverty. Perhaps it's drugs and alcohol. Perhaps it's a destruction of their way of life. I don't know, but what I do know is, something needs to be done to bring the tribes together and improve all their lives.

The United Tribal Council dissolved their last meeting (at least the last meeting I heard about) due to squabbles and bickering. This won't stand. The Native Americans in this nation need to come together, consolidate their power, and start making some serious changes. They need to demand more land, reparations, and mineral/timber rights be payed retroactively. They need to take what money they have and build a United Tribal Council Headquarters, establish a voting bloc, and institute procedures for assessing needs and providing funds for the appropriate lobbying efforts. They need to promote and elect responsible native politicians. They have taken great strides in adressing the problems of alcoholism, but the root cause must be treated, not the symptoms, the root cause is hopelessness.

There is no way anybody is going to be able to do this for them, they have to do it for themselves. They have to put aside thousands of years of emnity and unite against a common enemy, the destruction that's been wrought by foreign invaders. It's not too late to unify the world, to bring the four corners together under one banner. It's never too late..until the curtain falls.

And that may happen sooner than anyone would like to think.

Weirdo, you're way off base. Majic is pretty much on point.

On ATS there are men who have killed, probably men who have raped, definitely men who have stolen, assaulted, and abused - there is no denying that. There are child murderers in other countries, if you read the news you would know that. Not six weeks ago a man was hanged from a crane in Iran because he lured children into the desert to rape and murder them.

So, I suggest you reign in your outrage and consider the statistical probabilities.

www.crimezzz.net...

A hunter goes where there is ready game...

No continent except the frozen wasteland of Antarctica has been entirely spared from serial murders, but some regions are clearly safer than others.

www.china-un.ch...
This site claims the murder rate in America is 5 to 7 times higher than other industrialized nations, on average.

www.cbsnews.com...
This site claims that in 2000 1.6 million people worldwide died in a violent event, based on WHO statistics. So, what, is one guy killing all those people? No. We are a violent species.

The truth is humans evolved violence as an evolutionary benefit, it has helped propel us to where we are today. Humans are without a doubt the cruelest, most cunning, cut-throat creatures on the planet - denying that is like saying the sun is made of cheese. Some human beings express violence more acutely, but we all have the capability.

To say that ATS is miraculously free of criminals, when the rest of the world clearly is not, well, that's just naive.

Intellectual Dissonance

Originally posted by weirdo
Maybe you should keep to the ethic of ATS which is disscussion.You can recommend all you want,but you are way off any understanding of this subject.Please read and comment others post but don`t try to judge,advise,recommend to people who you have no knowledge of.You have an opinion sure but try hard to understand that you could be wrong.

I have expressed my opinions, and you have expressed yours.

Based on your posts, it seems likely to me that you and I will disagree on many different things, aside from this particular topic.

That's fine, but I will not be taking marching orders from you, and you will have to be content with the fact that I will post as I see fit, when I see fit, and how I see fit.

This exchange between us is going in a direction I don't care to go, so I hope you can be satisfied that I will give your opinions all the consideration I think they merit, and leave it at that.

I have expressed my opinions, and you have expressed yours.

Based on your posts, it seems likely to me that you and I will disagree on many different things, aside from this particular topic.

That's fine, but I will not be taking marching orders from you, and you will have to be content with the fact that I will post as I see fit, when I see fit, and how I see fit.

This exchange between us is going in a direction I don't care to go, so I hope you can be satisfied that I will give your opinions all the consideration I think they merit, and leave it at that.

Fine by me but the joy of ATS is having discussions both in agreement and disagreement!No disrespect is ever used in my post well maybe sometimes .I have no problem with you posting what you see fit when you see fit and how, but also l will respond how l see fit on what l see fit and when it don`t fit
The direction this is going in is l want you to and other to substanciate your claims or if you cannot then word them in such a way that they are just your claims and not factual.

Anyway no disrespect meant l am only on here for discussion

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Weirdo, you're way off base. Majic is pretty much on point.

On ATS there are men who have killed, probably men who have raped, definitely men who have stolen, assaulted, and abused - there is no denying that. There are child murderers in other countries, if you read the news you would know that. Not six weeks ago a man was hanged from a crane in Iran because he lured children into the desert to rape and murder them.

Statistically possible but this site l doubt has anything to offer them.If you can shed some evidance to counter claim this great.

This site claims the murder rate in America is 5 to 7 times higher than other industrialized nations, on average.

Counter claims Maj`s claims.Great :p

To say that ATS is miraculously free of criminals, when the rest of the world clearly is not, well, that's just naive.

I never stated ATS was free of criminals.Just potential child mass murders.

How would I provide evidence to prove there were or were not child killers on ATS? How would you provide evidence to that effect?

There's no way of knowing, except to go by logic, and what does logic have to say? ATS is a microcosm of the world, there are child killers in the world, that means there are potentially child killers on ATS. It's not a stretch. It's just a reasonable, QUALIFIED, assumption based on the nature of the human species.

Edited for this: This site attracts all kinds, not five minutes ago I saw someone with "white power skin" in their custom title slot. There are masons and monks, warriors and healers, scientists and writers, ALL kinds of people. It's not too unreasonable to think that some people here are mentally deranged psychopaths capable of murdering children. It's not a pleasant thought, but it certainly falls within the realm of possibility.

[edit on 28-3-2005 by WyrdeOne]

Coda

Originally posted by weirdo
The direction this is going in is l want you to and other to substanciate your claims or if you cannot then word them in such a way that they are just your claims and not factual.

I think I've been reasonably clear about that, but in case you missed it: yeah, sure, I could be wrong about pretty much everything.

Consider that the extent of my warranty to you and all readers.

Recognize And Represent

Originally posted by weirdo
Anyway no disrespect meant l am only on here for discussion

Same here. In particular, I prefer discussion of the topics and our opinions of them, and not each other, which is what I was becoming concerned about.

The Topic Of Dispute

Originally posted by weirdo
I never stated ATS was free of criminals.Just potential child mass murders.

In light of why this thread exists in the first place, you might want to reconsider your position on this.