The Chosen-An actual conspiracy

Sometimes things are not as complicated as they might seem, everyone is familiar with the concept of the Chosen, whether in Jewish, Christian or Islamic terms, but very few understand the principle, because its a secret and that's a conspiracy.

"Chosen" in hebrew means Bachiyr [בָּחִיר], which is formed from the root Bachar [בָּחַר]. Bachiyr is used in many places of the bible to indicate chosen people of Israel, or the elect of the Lord. This word, Bachiyr is in the bible is usually associated with chosen children of Jacob: ‎1 Chronicles‎ 16:‎13, ‎Psalms‎ 105:‎6, ‎Psalms‎ 135:‎4, ‎Isaiah‎ 41:‎8, ‎Isaiah‎ 44:‎1, ‎Isaiah‎ 44:‎2, Isaiah‎ 65:‎9.

The first time the word is used in the Bible is with regards to the daughters of men being chosen.

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Ends with "בָּחָֽרוּ", which is also chosen (as in "chosen their own ways" of Isaiah 66:3), "Bacharu"

Put simply those chosen are Bacchants, and thus presumably chosen of Bacchus.

For many are called, but few are chosen." is repeated from Plato's Phaedo (many who carry the thyrsus but the Bacchants are few).

Simply speaking Bachiyr and Bacchant is same word, the elect.

For this reason and many others the Greeks and Romans concluded that the God of Israel was Bacchus or Dionysus.

The Greeks and the Romans were firmly convinced that the Jews had a cult of Dionysus, basing this opinion on some external point of similarity. Plutarch thinks that the name of the Jewish Sabbath is derived from σάβος, the cry of the ecstatic Bacchantes. More important still is his further statement that the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, as celebrated in the Temple at Jerusalem, was really a form of Dionysus worship. He reasons as follows: "The Jews celebrate their most important feast in the time of the vintage; they heap all sorts of fruit on their tables, and they live in tents and huts made chiefly from branches of the vine and from ivy; the first day of this festival they call the Feast of Tabernacles. A few days later they celebrate another feast, invoking Bacchus no longer through symbols, but calling upon him directly by name. They, furthermore, have a festival during which they carry branches of the fig-tree and the thyrsus; they enter the Temple, where they probably celebrate Bacchanalia

Even though they noted similarities they also noted differences.

"As their priests sing to the accompaniment of flutes and kettle-drums, and as they deck themselves with laurel, and as a golden vine was found in their Temple, many people believe that they worship Bacchus, the conqueror of the East; but the two cults have nothing in common, for Bacchus has established a brilliant and joyous ritual, while the customs of the Jews are bizarre and morose."

Dionysus in Israel

The principle of choosing also indirectly involves the principle of rejection, those who are not chosen, likewise the principle of binding in terms of covenant, those that are bound and those that are loosened, and Israel obviously had their own ideas on this, but Bacchus is by definition the principle itself and not necessarily the name of the Deity doing the choosing, it simply indicates the choosy one, the principle itself derived from concepts of fire and energy, that could either be nurturing or destructive, related to love and hate and seen as unleashed under the influence of wine, so love of self and hatred of all others could be seen as two aspects of the same principle, or a more conditional binding of one particular group against all others.

The Deity of Edom from which this tradition re-emerged, because it was understood earlier, was Shara the Lord of that Mountain range, variously taken as Eros/Cupid/Dionysus/Aeon/Mithra, the Lord of the rock equated with strongly established Covenant, and were Sara was the archer son of Inanna that became Qos Allah, and it can be noted that Cupid inspires either love or hatred, in essence the manipulation of the emotions, perhaps a jealous or loving or angry God as the mood took him, well at least according to the scribes.

The Hindu would recognize these principles as relating to Agni or Shiva, Kama or even Vishnu, and would struggle to understand why they shouldn't be chosen as devotees of such cults, and with good reason, they were introduced by the Vedic Aryans a branch of which developed the Fire cults of Iran, perhaps it's all a question of knowledge falling into the wrong hands.

Jesus died on a cross and resurrected to show it is all real though. Israel = Is real.


Also, I have heard, I think on here before actually, that John the Baptist shares many traits with Bacchus. The peace and splendor of returning to the natural world and the fruitfulness thereof. The law of Moses involves integrating with the natural world outside of civilization. This is not to say it is by any means a copy and paste job. They are syncretic archetypes, meaning they are similar truths that emerge independent of each other. Hellenism is based off this... Both the Greeks and the Judeo-Christians have many overlapping features because they are extracting the same universal truth. Christianity is unique because Jesus is quite literally the fundamental pillar of the universe, and even the Greek philosophers predicted his coming. Read Plato's Cave allegory if you want to see what I mean.

SOCRATES: And if they can get hold of this person who takes it in hand to free them from theirchains and to lead them up, and if they could kill him, will they not actually kill him?
GLAUCON: They certainly will.

This is in the 4th century BC, and Socrates essentially predicts Jesus's coming to liberate the people from the valley of darkness, which he refers to as a cave.

All that work for gnosticism.


a reply to: Madrusa

Nice English based breakdown of a ancient Hebrew word. Israel means god contended or wrestles with god.
Fitting name for a place where everyone believes the same things from different books and kill each other over it.

a reply to: cooperton

a reply to: cooperton

Moses has been compared to Dionysus and connection can be made to Orphite cults also, but this is simply in terms of establishing such principles as a basis for Israel, there are Universal constants involved in terms of negative-positive energy bonding and that certainly didn't begin with a person called Jesus and the practise of magic, obviously it was suggested he personified such fundamental principles.

There is going to be commonality across the various traditions but they vary in interpretation and application, the Jewish adaptation of Bacchic principles was the complete opposite of what the Greeks would expect, that binding could be generated in terms of rejection of all other peoples/religions/cultures, and that it would prove remarkably effective and enduring.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

It was not for the purpose of Gnosticism, riddle me this, are you more likely to exploit/deceive/enslave a person if you love or hate them?

Sounds like Apollo an Dionysus for the most, an was often a thing to debate about.

I personally find Yahweh to be more of a Hebrew version to the Hades, the God of the Dead, along with Satan being very similar to Cereberus(even though Zeus does identify more so with the adversary). Hades was just as feared by the Greeks, if not more so then Zeus very much like that Hebrews fear of Yahweh, an would want to avoid his ire.

The problem with comparing a monotheism an polytheism, is that one is attributed to all elements of life, where as polytheism would have differing one to each element in a sense.

a reply to: Specimen88

Yah is a secondary principle of collective growth based upon the Lunar disk, Aeon as a child represented by a crescent Moon and as appeared to Moses, they didn't fear Yah they worshiped growth of collective interest, the guarantee of more sheep and shekels, they only feared the waning Moon related to decline in growth.

We have been here, what, 10k plus years at least and STILL aint got a clue bout nuthin, except what a couple books say.

a reply to: lakenheath24

What about those who wrote the Books, you think they didn't have a clue, maybe just got lucky?

I think most reject all clues out of fear of the truth and avoidance of consequences.

a reply to: Madrusa

Here's a twist for you:

After the Exodus from Egypt, several tribes of Israel moved to the North-West in what we now call Syria and became seafaring, like the Phoenicians they conquered and replaced. Those Jewish peoples did not stick to the coasts, but were known to travel, trade, and mingle with other peoples around the Mediterranean. They were known of as "the Sea Peoples".

There is some historical support for this conclusion such as in I Maccabees 14:16-23 and in the writings of Cleodemus Malchus

Anyway, what I am getting at is that rather than the Jews getting their religious beliefs from the Greeks, perhaps the Greeks were celebrating corruptions of the Jewish traditions? - The Greeks got their religion from the Jews?

Here's a site that seems to draw several of these fairly tenuous threads together: THE MISSING SIMEONITES By Steven M. Collins

Similarly, there is a strong genetic link to a Semitic heritage in genetic studies of European Mediterranean peoples. About 50% of Italians alive today show a Semitic heritage.

Also there are archaeological findings such as the Mycenaean Tel Dan excavation which shows a strong Phoenician link. At the time, the differences between Phoenician and Hebrew cultures, writings and artefacts are few. So the site may actually be demonstrating Hebrew rather than Phoenician links.

originally posted by: Madrusa
a reply to: cooperton



the Jewish adaptation of Bacchic principles was the complete opposite of what the Greeks would expect, that binding could be generated in terms of rejection of all other peoples/religions/cultures, and that it would prove remarkably effective and enduring.

The Christian Way accepted both Jews and gentiles (literally everyone). The only rejection occurs when God is rejected... then the consequences of ignoring the truth begin to manifest. The Greeks took long journeys to hear about Christ because they valued knowledge. Pythagoras was also learned from the descendants of "Moses the physiologist . The Queen of the South came to hear the knowledge of Solomon. And so on.

The Israelis were very succinct in their writings, and didn't embellish their own grandeur like many other cultures do. They include their worst times in their written history, so you know there is little bias. This was the duty of their scribes, and they took it very seriously.

a reply to: chr0naut

There was a greater Hyksos confederation before the supposed Exodus based largely in Canaan but that's nothing to do with Israel and there was no concept of Jewishness connected to Israel until Judea had been conquered, though the myths incorporate the archetype earlier, but anyway Bacchus is from the Semitic verb but that pre-dates Israel and would have been common to Amorite cultures, Dionysus the Greek equivalent having Indo-European origins as did most of their religion, the basis of the cult was known across very extensive regions but Israel developed a unique form.

There had been extensive Semitic expansion before Israel but their cult was still largely confined to Jerusalem before the Babylonian exile, even though they claimed the tribes of Northern Canaan in their confederacy they had broken away from the Jerusalem cult before that and left no written accounts, such was the centralization of power of the scribal elite, which is all Israel ever was, a narrative.

a reply to: cooperton

Christianity does offer Chosen status through the bonding with the Lord, but it's highly debatable that Jesus intended that for Gentiles rather than simply claiming to be Messiah of Israel

The dominant religious position in Israel at that time was Hellenistic-Judaism, the Jews were learning from the superior culture of the Greeks, their Temple cult had become something of an anachronism, this is seen in Gospel characters taking Greek names and that they are written in the manner of a Greek tragedy, but the end result was the Classical word accepting the curious hybrid that eradicated their own traditions

The idea of Israel was only ever a product of the scribal imagination, were do you think they came from, what was the origin of the Levites?

originally posted by: Madrusa
a reply to: cooperton

Christianity does offer Chosen status through the bonding with the Lord, but it's highly debatable that Jesus intended that for Gentiles rather than simply claiming to be Messiah of Israel

I am fairly certain the first time Jesus publicly admitted he was the Messiah was to a Samaritan woman. And he said it is not necessary to worship at any geographic place, but instead to worship in Truth and Spirit.

The idea of Israel was only ever a product of the scribal imagination

Nah. The Jews at the time could trace their lineage back to Abraham. These were a well recorded people. In the book of Matthew, Jesus's lineage is traced back to Abraham and in the book of Luke it is taken even further. Your argument doesn't make sense

a reply to: cooperton

Because the Samaritans as an unorthodox group in Israel were also opposed to the Temple authorities as were the Galileans, thus a confederation of outsiders looking to supplant the Temple cult, they didn't succeed and the old families retained control. If you believe everything you read they also traced their lineage back to Adam and Eve.

The earliest known examples of Paleo-Hebrew writing date to the 10th century BCE.

originally posted by: Madrusa
a reply to: cooperton

Because the Samaritans as an unorthodox group in Israel were also opposed to the Temple authorities as were the Galileans, thus a confederation of outsiders looking to supplant the Temple cult, they didn't succeed and the old families retained control. If you believe everything you read they also traced their lineage back to Adam and Eve.

the Hebrews, Egyptians, Sumerians, Greeks, and so on all talk about the primordial couple that was the manifestation of God. People only don't believe it because evolutionary theory distorts the minds of us from a young age. Whats amazing is all these accounts discuss the same circumstance but they take different stances on who was the right side of history. These were historical events whether we believe them or not

a reply to: cooperton

Well 6,000 years ago there was concern with a Divine couple in the Dilmun Paradise but they weren't exactly primordial and they weren't called Adam and Eve and they weren't the ancestors of the Hebrews, apart from that fair enough.

But this thread isn't about that, it's about the Chosen being Bacchants, do you consider yourself such, do you burn with passion for the Lord or are you somewhat lukewarm, have you engaged in physical union consumed his flesh and drank his blood, do you love and hate beyond all reason, do you transform into fire during the Festival of New Wine/Pentecost, have you ever attended a Bacchic Love Fest, if not why not?

a reply to: Madrusa

I'm guessing you are referring to Lah, Egytian mythology tricky because they would change depending, on the kingdoms an dynasties. Wouldnt surprise me if there was a connection, between Lah an Yahweh, but it might be a more phonetic one, while Lah become lost to time.

a reply to: Madrusa

Very interesting. I

I’m going to think about this and Come back.

a reply to: Specimen88

Yah-khonsu-Thoth, the lunar disk, principle of expansion, archiving, Thoth thrice great.

Iah is a very early god of the moon in ancient Egyptian religion, and his name sometimes transliterated as Yah, Jah or Aah, simply means "moon." Nevertheless, by the New Kingdom he was less prominent as a moon deity than the other gods with lunar connections, Thoth and Khonsu. As a result of the functional connection between them he could be identified with either of those deities. He was sometimes considered an adult form of Khonsu, and was increasingly absorbed by him.

The high point in Yah's popularity can be found following the the Middle Kingdom when many people immigrated from the Levant and the Hyksos ruled Egypt.

Yah


Yah was an obscure Deity in early Dynastic Egypt but became more popular under Hyksos influence, indicating that his origins were likely from the Sinai region originally were his name does not simply indicate Moon but rather the Proto-Semitic verb *(h-w-y) meaning “to be”

The Proto-Semitic verb

Cognate to the Aramaic root ה־ו־י‎ / ܗ-ܘ-ܝ‎ (h-w-y) meaning “to be”, “to happen”, “to come down”.

(hawiya, “to be fond, to love or fall in love”), يَهْوَى‎ (yahwā)

Verbal noun: هَوًى‎ (hawan, “passion, whim, caprice”)

Khonsu represented the principle of self increase through the consumption of others as recorded in the Pyramid and Coffin texts, feasting on the heads and hearts of humanity, and a principle Pharaoh was expected to follow in his own personal development.

Khonsu in terms of the Crescent Moon was represented as a child with the Egyptian side-locks, such as the manifestation of Yah as a child to Moses, a principle aspect was that of the traveller and pathfinder given the Moons traversing of the skies, a suitable God to lead an Exodus, he was also a marker of time and thus the duration of any such journey would have significance, his mode of travel was to be carried within an Ark.