Who are the 144,000

originally posted by: one4all

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

a reply to: one4allTasked with kickstarting Humanity Post-Armageddon.

MALES CANNOT REPRODUCE. Re-Read the scriptures again they are all males.

Where did Eve come from ...if not Adams rib.

Adam did not reproduce Eve.

a reply to: Buvvy

It was not ON it was IN their foreheads.

The Names was not a communication device.

The were not in a earthly bunker but in heaven before the throne.

There was a remnant of all nations left on the earth that will propagate the earth for 1,000 years until the Gog and Magog rebellion under Satan.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: MidnightHawk
I did my own thread on this back in 2010.
I believe you are absolutely right to think of them as spiritual Israel rather than literal Israel.
And absolutely right to invite us to see significance in the names of the tribes.

I see an additional significance in those names;
There are two overlapping lists of names in the Old Testament.

Firstly, there is the list of "sons of Jacob". This includes Levi (a son of Leah) and Joseph (a son of Rachel).

When it comes to the actual listing of the tribes of Israel, Joseph is divided into Manasseh and Ephraim, and Levi is left out to keep the number at twelve.

Comparing the list in Revelation with that second list, we see that the names "Joseph" and "Levi" have come back, replacing the names "Ephraim" and "Dan". Now Ephraim and Dan were two unfaithful tribes- they housed the two calf-images of Jeroboam. On the other hand, Joseph and Levi were both recorded as faithful, Joseph repelling temptation, and Levi standing up for the Lord at Shiittim (you can't spell that name properly on this site). So two faithful names have replaced two unfaithful names. That can't be a coincidence. The sealed represent God's faithful people.

Where I part company with you is that I believe the number is also non-literal. Each tribe is numbered as 12x10x10x10. 12 is the number of God's people. 10 is the number of completeness, which is here intensified. The overall total mutiplies by another 12, so that is intensified as well.
The spiritual signficance of the number is "The totality of God's faithful people."

For this reason (and because I don't believe in a Rapture), I don't separate the 144,000 from the overall total of faithful Christians (I can't quite tell whether you distinguish them or not).

I enjoyed your reply, especially the thought of the tribes of Ephraim and Dan being omitted because of the calf worship they promoted all throughout the 10-tribe reign. It is intriguing.

Here are a few facts to ponder about the number being literal and not symbolic.

(1) In the very same chapter 7 of Revelation after giving the number of the 144,000 we are also given a number of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" that survive Armageddon on earth, and a literal figure is not given as is for the 144,000. It is a number no man is able to number. (Revelation 7:9).

(2) The ratio of kings to subjects is vast. It would be nonsense to resurrect everyone to heavenly life to rule as kings. If everyone is a king who is subject to them?

(3) Jesus said he had "other sheep" that were not of this fold. There were two folds one flock. Who are the "other sheep"? They are all faithful servants of Jehovah who do not have a prospect of going to heaven to serve as kings. They have always had the hope of living forever on earth. (John 10:16)

(4) Other scriptures themselves indicate this is a definite number:

"For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in."-Romans 11:26.

Notice this next reference:

"They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”  And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."-Revelation 6:10-11.

The angels in Revelation 7 are told to hold back the four winds of destruction on the earth until all of the 144,000 have been sealed. When the last anointed is sealed with approval before Jehovah the end will come. The saints, or holy ones, here in this vision in Revelation 6 are asking how long will God withhold avenging their blood, for many of the 144,000 have been slaughtered for witnessing about Jehovah God and his Christ Jesus to the nations. They are told to wait a little while longer until "until the number was filled" of their brothers who are about to be killed as they had been.

This also means when the number is full that there will be more slaughtering of the anointed chosen ones of Jehovah God. In fact Jesus Christ said that during the great tribulation things were going to get so bad that if God did not intervene no one would survive but on account of the "chosen ones" he would cut those days short.-(Matthew 24:22).

originally posted by: MidnightHawk
(1) In the very same chapter 7 of Revelation after giving the number of the 144,000 we are also given a number of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" that survive Armageddon on earth, and a literal figure is not given as is for the 144,000. It is a number no man is able to number. (Revelation 7:9).

I regard them as the same people. Once we are "sealed" with the Holy Spirit on earth, we are simultaneously "sitting in the heavenly places". There are two verses in early Ephesians I always quote on this point.
If the 144,000 is symbolic, there is no clash with "cannot be numbered"; especially since "cannot be numbered" is just a way of saying "there are a lot of them". God can certainly number them

(2) The ratio of kings to subjects is vast. It would be nonsense to resurrect everyone to heavenly life to rule as kings. If everyone is a king who is subject to them?

We find at the end of Revelation that all of us are sharing "the throne of God and the Lamb". John says in the first chapter that God has made US kings and priests, and the twenty-four elders in ch4, representing God's people, are wearing crowns and repeat the declaration that God has made us kings and priests (or a kingdom and priests, according to text). As for where the subjects are, remember from Genesis ch1 that mankind was to rule the earth.

3) Jesus said he had "other sheep" that were not of this fold. There were two folds one flock. Who are the "other sheep"?

In reading the Bible, neve, never, ignore the context. In that story, he is talking to a bunch of Jews. The "other sheep" are the Gentiles.

"For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in."-Romans 11:26.

"Full number" just means "everybody". There is no reason for stretching it to mean "any number that is quoted must be taken literally"

"They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”  And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."-Revelation 6:10-11.

Same comment as above.

The angels in Revelation 7 are told to hold back the four winds of destruction on the earth until all of the 144,000 have been sealed. When the last anointed is sealed with approval before Jehovah the end will come. The saints, or holy ones, here in this vision in Revelation 6 are asking how long will God withhold avenging their blood, for many of the 144,000 have been slaughtered for witnessing about Jehovah God and his Christ Jesus to the nations. They are told to wait a little while longer until "until the number was filled" of their brothers who are about to be killed as they had been.

I don't think you've noticed the significance of the fact that the appeal of the martyrs in ch6 comes before the sealing of ch7. It means that the martyrs of ch6 are not (as you seem to suggest) part of the group numbered as 144, 000. The ch7 group are actually being sealed to prepare them to meet the second stage of tribulation, the one predicted in the reply to the martyrs.
And again, "filling the number" just means "everybody". It does not specify any specific number. On its own, it does not clash with the possibility that the real number is (say)1563 million, 376 thousand, and 16. Why should it?

This also means when the number is full that there will be more slaughtering of the anointed chosen ones of Jehovah God.

To me, the statement that deaths will continue until the number of martyrs is complete means that they will stop when the number of martyrs is complete. Just as "I will run until I reach my destination" implies "I will stop running when I reach my destination". It never occurred to me that the statement could have any other meaning.

Always beware the ingenious twisting of scripture to match a pre-arranged conclusion. Bible interpreters with dogmatic views are prone to that temptation.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
Always beware the ingenious twisting of scripture to match a pre-arranged conclusion. Bible interpreters with dogmatic views are prone to that temptation.

Agreed. The Bible interprets itself. When you start to add your own interpretation or using teachings of men as doctrines or twisting scripture to fit a preconceived idea then you are not following the lead of the holy spirit. The context should always be taken into account.

Excellent advice.

I see the explanations have gone over your head for whatever reason. God knows. It was nice talking with you about the subject for a little bit though.

a reply to: MidnightHawk
Or, just possibly, I have gone over the head of your explanations. Perhaps it really is time to start bumping my 2010 thread series on Revelation.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Could the 144,000 relate to non-Jews when Jesus himself said...

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished....For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Does Christianity abide to Judiac law?

Anyone can be a member of a group of 144,000.

www.youtube.com...

I am pretty sure that that list does not include me. Hell, if I have odds of one out of ten I never win. So I am not going to worry about it. Think about all the people since that was created, it includes everyone born since then....what are my chances of being picked? Well there is a ninety nine point nine percent chance of going in the other direction, we can probably count on that.

The 144,000s read the books and see what others cannot see.

The causality of Cancer/Covid and the complete remedial methodology are written into doctrinal works.

You do not have to "dig" to find this information if you are one of the 144,000s.....its the first thing that jumps out at you.

Anyone can choose at any time to become one of the 144.000s.... all they have to do is open their eyes then make the free-will choice.

a reply to: DISRAELI

You responses can only be true if you make the Kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God the same.

They are not.

Things that are different are not equal.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Would you mind telling me what the difference is please?

What is the 'kingdom of God'?
What is the 'kingdom of heaven'?

a reply to: ChesterJohn
I covered that issue in The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven (q.v.).
I won't gp through it all again here.

a reply to: MidnightHawk
No one will ever be saved.
The reason being is: life is all there is......there are no separate lives.

What is appearing to happen is all there is.

Nothing is appearing.

No thing was ever born and no thing will ever die.

This is why the 144,000s exist.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Itisnowagain

The simplest way to say it is this.

Heaven is a created, Earthly Kingdom the dominion give to Adam, Noah, Abraham, moses, Saul, David, Solomon and then Jesus Christ. It is a Physical Kingdom

God is not Created and is a Spiritual kingdom that is within. Spiritual Originally given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Saul, David, Solomon then Jesus Christ. Who Hold both crowns even though Satan is the god of this world he has no crown after wining it from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses Saul, David and Solomon.

He could not get Jesus to give him the earthly crown in the garden and the spiritual Crown has been in heaven from some time after Solomon and given to Christ at his ascension.

For a really good explanation of the differences of these two kingdoms a must Read is "The Sure Word of Prophecy" by P S Ruckman

a reply to: DISRAELI

No you did not cover the issue you made the two the same kingdom.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Heaven is a created, Earthly Kingdom promised to Israel. Physical.

God is not Created and is a Spiritual kingdom that is within. Spiritual.

Is there really a within?

Is there actually any thing other than the ever present space?

The ever present space continually appears as what is appearing.


Concepts like inside and outside make is seam as if there are two things.....me inside and a world outside.

When the two are found to be one the kingdom shall be revealed.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

To someone who see things as etherical, you have no in or out, right or left or Up or down.

The author of confusion is the one behind that.

The physical and the spiritual are two different things thought they can operate in one body which is both soul and body.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
That's what I mean by "covering the issue".