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If you refer to the "warp bubble" they call a "warp drive" in the paper this thread is about, that's the one thing it allegedly can do is have time flow at a different rate inside the bubble, but it can't go anywhere without some form of propulsion, and then only at less than light speed.
originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: jeep3r
One question i have ... if warp driver ever becomes a thing.. will Time dilation still
be relative to the occupants of the Warping space craft.
I have no idea .. but better heads might be able to answer the question.
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
There's a famous limerick to illustrate your point, published in 1923:
There was a young lady named Bright
Whose speed was far faster than light;
She set out one day
In a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
Seeing the many examples in the literature of causality violations based on faster-than-light (FTL) signals one naturally thinks that FTL motion leads inevitably to the possibility of time travel. We show that this logical inference is invalid by demonstrating a model, based on (3+1)-dimensional Minkowski spacetime, in which FTL motion is permitted (in every direction without any limitation on speed) yet which does not admit time travel. Moreover, the Principle of Relativity is true in this model in the sense that all observers are equivalent.
In short, FTL motion does not imply time travel after all.
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Arbitrageur
Maybe when we figure out exactly what dark energy is. Its doing a great job of moving stuff and we have no idea why.
Under this theory, the cosmos contains a dynamic, motive, dark fluid, with dark matter and dark energy being modeled as the observed effects from positive mass matter ‘surfing’ on this expanding fluid. As an illustrative concept, empty space-time would behave almost like popcorn – with more negative masses continuously popping into existence.
In 1918, before famously discarding the cosmological constant, Einstein made the first physical interpretation of the new Λ term that he had discovered:
“a modification of the theory is required such that ‘empty space’ takes the role of gravitating negative masses which are distributed all over the interstellar space”.
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
You don't seem to have noticed this, but your diagrams are not flat and wide in the same orientation, so it's completely unlike the disc reports which have them as in your second illustration, a disc moving to the right is wide horizontally and thin vertically. Your drawing on the top shows the exact opposite, it's thin horizontally and wide vertically for travel to the right in the direction of the arrow.
Moreover, the geometry of said spacetime is circular in nature.
All this would make the ideal passenger area basically look "disk-shaped" (circular, flat, wide), in other words: it would resemble the classic and probably most reported shape of UFOs in the whole of history.
Tilt to maneuver. While not actually a maneuver, this observation, which I have confirmed, is important. UFOs tilt to perform all maneuvers. For example, they sit level to hover, tilt forward to move forward, tilt backward to stop, bank to turn, etc.
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Guest101
That makes no sense if you were going to use a warp buble to move it would look like magic to an outside observer. You would see the craft dissapear then reapear at its destination. You would also still need something to impart motion. Lets say we want to travel to the nearest star.For example traveling to Alpha Centauri, the nearest neighboring star system, is 4.4 light-years away. Put a starship in a warp bubble. Shrink the distance in front of the starship to a couple of inches, expand the space behind it to 4.4 light-years and then pop the starship out of the warp bubble. But you would still deal with causality violations which means this is highly unlikely
the UFO cannot use the atmosphere for flight like a bird or an aircraft. The aerodynamic “lift” points downward! The saucer disk is tilted the wrong way for positive lift.
Within a very small distance of ground level, say a meter, saucer-like machines behave as though they possess a degree of altitude stability, but clearly don't have it at higher altitudes.
To discuss this very briefly, consider the helicopter. When within one rotor diameter of the ground, the helicopter encounters extra aerodynamic lift which gives it a ground-effects altitude stability. For each power setting and wind velocity, there is a corresponding hovering altitude. The rocket platform and UFO are not so lucky. The only aerodynamic effects they experience are miscellaneous disturbances and they must continuously jockey thrust or introduce other artificial control. At least that is my experience with the platforms.
The U.S. Air Force was interested in building a saucer-shaped aircraft for experimental purposes, seemingly with the philosophy of “If you can't beat them, join them.” They teamed up with the Royal Canadian Air Force and AVRO of Canada to build it. An artist's sketch of the AVRO-disk can be found in Edwards' Flying Saucers: Serious Business. Two pilots were selected to fly the disk. They were Col. David Henderson, USAF, and Wing Comdr. Paul Hartman, RCAF. The photo presented as Figure XI-10 shows Henderson and Hartman as they arrived at the Wallops Island rocket research vehicle base to try their skill at platform flying. They did all right. In fact, Henderson was unusual. He was the first to ever fly the platform for considerable time with his eyes closed, seeming to defy the usual need for a visual reference. Later I heard that the AVRO-disk was plagued with developmental problems, including being underpowered, and was abandoned.
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Guest101
Im going to say no to your sound idea there. You wouldnt hear the song backwards what you would hear is nthing until plane pases you then you hear sonic boom and a loud roar. The disturbances of the air would destroy the music and would just sound like static. This is why in your example causality is not broken the universe really like cause then effect. And i hate to say this but warp drives violate causality and that is why its impossible unless you time travel like i mentioned earlier but even there causality would be destoyed.
Lets look at a hypothetical lets say we have 3 solar systems ours then one that we call B is 8 light years from us and one we call c is 10 light years . We decide to travel to C before we leave we broadcast a signal advising everyone we are leaving. When we arive at C we send another signal that says we arrived. Lets say for argument sake it took 6 months. Now aliens living at B would hear the signal that we arived at C and 5 and a half years later would get the signal advising them they were leaving for C.
originally posted by: Guest101
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Guest101
Im going to say no to your sound idea there. You wouldnt hear the song backwards what you would hear is nthing until plane pases you then you hear sonic boom and a loud roar. The disturbances of the air would destroy the music and would just sound like static. This is why in your example causality is not broken the universe really like cause then effect. And i hate to say this but warp drives violate causality and that is why its impossible unless you time travel like i mentioned earlier but even there causality would be destoyed.
Lets look at a hypothetical lets say we have 3 solar systems ours then one that we call B is 8 light years from us and one we call c is 10 light years . We decide to travel to C before we leave we broadcast a signal advising everyone we are leaving. When we arive at C we send another signal that says we arrived. Lets say for argument sake it took 6 months. Now aliens living at B would hear the signal that we arived at C and 5 and a half years later would get the signal advising them they were leaving for C.
I never said a jet was involved in the sound case. It was a `thought experiment’, where the manner of transportation is irrelevant.
But it works with a jet as well:
Let’s say a person traveling towards you in a jet faster than the speed of sound has a very powerful horn, much louder than the jet engines. You agree that they will sound the horn once when they just departed and they will sound it twice just before arrival. You will first hear it sound twice, signalling arrival, and then hear it sound once, signalling departure. The `arrival’ signal comes before the `departure’ signal, without any causality violations, because the jet travelled faster than the information carrier (sound).
A mix-up in information arrival due to this phenomenon is not the same as a causality violation.
To illustrate this, I can shrink your example of three solar systems to three cities, and replace light with homing pigeons. City B is 800 km from us and city C is 1000 km from us. I travel by jet to city C and send a homing pigeon with the message `I’m departing’ upon departure, and a second homing pigeon with the message `I’ve arrived’ upon arrival. Both homing pigeons head for city B. The `I’ve arrived’ message will arrive at city B before the `I’m departing’ message. This isn’t a causality violation but just a mix-up of message arrival times because I travelled faster than the pigeons.
According to several physicists, that won't work, and Chad Orzel says even fringe physicists mostly don't think that would work. Ethan Siegal wrote an article saying it can't be done.
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Beestie
make a measurement that forces the particle you have to be in the +1 state, and if you don’t see one, make a measurement that forces the particle you have to be in the -1 state.
But heres the other problem it only works once cant reset it and start over.
Sounds like what you said...but he continues...
You could, for example, keep an entangled particle in an indeterminate state, send it aboard a spacecraft bound for the nearest star, and tell it to look for signs of a rocky planet in that star’s habitable zone. If you see one, make a measurement that forces the particle you have to be in the +1 state, and if you don’t see one, make a measurement that forces the particle you have to be in the -1 state.
It’s a brilliant plan, but there’s a problem: entanglement only works if you ask a particle, “what state are you in?” If you force an entangled particle into a particular state, you break the entanglement, and the measurement you make on Earth is completely independent of the measurement at the distant star. If you had simply measured the distant particle to be +1 or -1, then your measurement, here on Earth, of either -1 or +1 (respectively) would give you information about the particle located light years away. But by forcing that distant particle to be +1 or -1, that means, no matter the outcome, your particle here on Earth has a 50/50 shot of being +1 or -1, with no bearing on the particle so many light years distant.
Seems like a subtle distinction which at first I thought might be pointing to some kind of loophole. I only read his explanation of the difference once, and it will probably take 2 or 3 readings for me to grasp the subtleties, but after those mental gymnastics, I understood this clearly on the first reading:
in the original statement, you "make a measurement that forces the particle" to be in a particular state, while in the second you "force an entangled particle into a particular state" which breaks the entanglement. Those are not the same thing, though-- one is a measurement, the other is a change of state followed by a measurement.
So, as I said, the whole business is subtle and complicated. The end result is always the same, though: While it's one of the weirdest and coolest phenomena in physics, there is no way to use quantum entanglement to send messages faster than the speed of light.
Apparently all you need for a stable wormhole is some negative mass or negative energy. The closest suggestion to that I've heard is the possibility that dark energy may be a form of negative energy which could be true, however if it's a property of the vacuum as it's commonly interpreted, then it's rather thinly spread out, and not concentrated like you would need it to be to stabilize a wormhole. But if someone came up with another source of concentrated negative energy, maybe a small wormhole could be used for FTL communication. There seem to be more physicists allowing for that possibility than the possibility of using quantum entanglement, but as you say, a wormhole can have consequences, even a small one just used for communication.
You might be able to warp space to communicate the same way you would to travel.Shrink the distance to the object your trying to talk to but at that point might as well just travel there. The only other way i can think of would be a worm hole assuming we could actually create it make it stable and then send a signal through it.
Some species don't care about the well being of other species that much, if they are studying the other species. I don't think the ants were happy about people pouring molten aluminum down the entrance to their ant colony, but as the comment on the video page says: The ants: "I tried to scream, but my head was under liquid aluminium."
Dont think aliens would be happy you destroying their entire civilization just because you wanted to visit.
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Beestie
Quantum entanglement wont allow for comunication. Well unless you consider a measurement comunication i guess. Problem is its a one shot deal and you have to already know what that measurement means. When you say communicate you usually want to pass information on a destination for example. Such as sending video back from a probe unfortunately this cannot be done with quantum entanglement. Thebest you could do is give a probe an instruction, for example, keep an entangled particle in an indeterminate state, send it aboard a spacecraft bound for the nearest star, and tell it to look for signs of life on a rocky planet in that star’s habitable zone. If you see one, make a measurement that forces the particle you have to be in the +1 state, and if you don’t see one, make a measurement that forces the particle you have to be in the -1 state.
But heres the other problem it only works once cant reset it and start over. You might be able to warp space to communicate the same way you would to travel.Shrink the distance to the object your trying to talk to but at that point might as well just travel there. The only other way i can think of would be a worm hole assuming we could actually create it make it stable and then send a signal through it.
And yes traveling faster than light can always cause problems. Lets take a quicj trip to a star 10 light years away when we get there we decide its in the way of our interstellar highway. So we load a quantum torpedo and blow the sun up. So we tavelled 10 light years in say 6 months. So from our original timeline we arived blew it up but heres the problem its going to take 10 years for earth to notice. But how did a star that blew up 9 and a half years ago still send light to earth. And this isnt the biggest problem with warp drives. The biggest problem is how you would exit one. Space is not just an empty void between two points it’s full of particles that have mass. And all those particles are going to be captured by our warp bubble. You see where this is going dont you?
When the Alcubierre-driven ship decelerates from superluminal speed, the particles its bubble has gathered are released in energetic outbursts.These outburst would send enough gamma rays to destroy any life in a solar system. Dont think aliens would be happy you destroying their entire civilization just because you wanted to visit. There is no upper limit to how strong this could get the further you travel the more gamma rays you will release. Man talk about a blue shift lol
I watched it. His accuracy is better than a typical television documentary, but he had what I think is a mistake in his prediction, and he could have used the 30 minutes better to put a more realistic perspective on the journeys.
originally posted by: rigel4
You Tube Video Below is what I was watching if anyone is interested.