Warp Drive Study - UFO-Like Design Possibly Key for Working Prototype

Now, I might be going out on a limb here (to some extent) but from what I read and heard, the title of this OP seems to be one of the implications of a new research paper published on arxiv.org by Alexey Bobrick and Gianni Martire (see PDF here). The gist of their novel concept is something else, though, namely that warp-drives will definitely work in practice without requiring so-called negative energy. This, in itself, is quite astonishing and worthy of a thread on this board.

Ultimately this means that no "new physics" are required to build warp-drives, and small versions of a prototype are absolutely feasible, easily attainable, meaning that they can and will be built, according to one of the authors own words on gnotes.org. Here goes an excerpt from the abstract of the paper:

Introducing Physical Warp Drives

In this study, we develop a model of a general warp drive spacetime in classical relativity that encloses all existing warp drive definitions and allows for new metrics without the most serious issues present in the Alcubierre solution.

From the maths and physics involved it seems that the most energy-efficient "spacetime bubble" (and the passenger area contained therein) is lens-shaped or disk-shaped as opposed to earlier ideas and concepts. If I'm not mistaken, the paper has not yet been peer-reviewed, but experts familiar with the topic expect it to pass that process without any major issues.

Making use of this new approach would imply subluminal speed. What I understood from the sources that I looked into in order to prepare this thread, is, that the real-world warp-drive that we'll be able to build cannot achieve FTL speeds. Even though it is apparently proven that the spacetime bubble itself could go beyond that barrier, at least in theory, utilizing negative energy.

A device that is assumed to achieve FTL is the so-called Alcubierre Drive, which comprises a solution to Einstein's equations of general relativity, in which a bubble of spacetime is moved rapidly by expanding space behind it and shrinking space in front of it. This early concept, published by Mexican theoretical physicist Miguel Alcubierre in the 1990s, is the basis for all related research on warp-drives ever since.

The video below explains the difference between the Alcubierre drive and the new concept by Bobrick and Matire quite well:
I'm not pretending to be an expert in this area, far from it, but the key point seems to be that if you want to be most energy-efficient with your warp-drive, the spacetime bubble it creates should be flat and wide. Moreover, the geometry of said spacetime is circular in nature.



All this would make the ideal passenger area basically look "disk-shaped" (circular, flat, wide), in other words: it would resemble the classic and probably most reported shape of UFOs in the whole of history.



Just coincidence? Maybe, but still an intriguing idea to ponder. This makes you wonder what such a drive (in motion) would look like when observed from the outside. Would it be capable of those erratic maneuvers that have been reported so often? What effects would it have on observers? Would it be glowing in all colors of the rainbow depending on the rate of speed and acceleration? Questions upon questions...

The authors (and others) of course point out that the energy required to built even subluminal warp-drives would still be extremely huge when thinking of an implementation on any reasonable scale that would allow humans to travel in this way. However, this conclusion also assumes that all aspects of the Theory of General Relativity are correct. And with dark matter and dark energy not having been fully understood yet, and possibly being just substitutions to explain what we observe, this point remains an open question, as mentioned in the above video.

Whatever the case, this definitely is an interesting development that piqued my interest and I look forward to your thoughts on this!




SOURCES & LINKS:
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01. PDF-Paper: Introducing Physical Warp Drives by Alexey Bobrick & Gianni Martire
02. Applied Physics: Physical Warp Drives
03. Gnotes: Gianni Martire on Warp Drives
04. More Details on Negative Energy
05. PDF: New Classes of Warp Drive Solutions in General Relativity
06. More information: The Concept of the Alcubierre Drive
07. Alexey Bobrick: Profile and Professional Background
08. Related Comments by Theoretical Physicist Sabine Hossenfelder

After reading to page 5 of 01 Introduction and thinking a bit... I think it is more plausible that the warp drive just bends a small space, the craft and region around itself. Like folding in all dimension and slipping through the cracks.

EM can pass matter because of the distances involved between the atoms that make up the molecules. What if space itself behaves like that. Sort of like a super conduction works. Electrons have not much or nothing to bounce against on their angry path.

This would relate to the energy needed because space compresses or folds into itself, energy density needs to rise. My humble theory.

a reply to: jeep3r


Science fiction has an uncanny way of predicting the future and proves right more often than not , although there are problems with the proposed Warp Drive they will no doubt be worked out in coming generations .... if we last that long.

I want a Holodeck !

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

Talking of EM, I guess there would be some related effects on nearby equipment considering the amount of energy involved unless the very process of bending spacetime prevents this from happening.

Honestly speaking, the maths and physics of all this are beyond me. But I like to imagine that this kind of technology could produce some of the bizarre effects we know from contemporary UFO lore.

a reply to: jeep3r

Math is not in my scope of concern, it's not the methods or functions, it's the relation to physics that I lack.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: jeep3r

Science fiction has an uncanny way of predicting the future and proves right more often than not , although there are problems with the proposed Warp Drive they will no doubt be worked out in coming generations .... if we last that long.

I want a Holodeck !

Well said! I guess your holodeck will be available way earlier than any workable type of warp drive

But then again, things sometimes take unpredictable turns and suddenly there's a giant leap of progress and things will never be the same again...

a reply to: jeep3r

Wanted to add but the flow is going on so new post. I didn't want to sound snobby with the math comment. Thing is this:

I start to sound like a vamp or marketing person about the WolframAlpha tool. It's like a google for science and math. Throw equations at it but keep it cool for starters. It's amazing, have a peak at it, discovered not long ago and you might be interested in his book.

Inherited a hard copy with notes. Serious stuff, the theory is strong he and his team/supporters are onto something. That's worth an own thread.

a reply to: jeep3r

Whenever I read these type of stories I can't help but think of old alchemists trying to turn lead into gold.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

You're not by any chance talking about his book A New Kind of Science (which, by the way, is freely available online)?

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: jeep3r

Whenever I read these type of stories I can't help but think of old alchemists trying to turn lead into gold.

They failed, if I recall correctly?

Well, at any rate their theories will be put to the test, by global peer-review and experimental data. But I guess I know what you mean: even if their theory is correct, the practical hurdles might still be insurmountable.

a reply to: jeep3r
I do. I inherited it, didn't knew at first but then I wanted to obtain a copy myself because I like paper books. Then it was not available for less than 200€ excluding shipping. Someday I unpack boxes and there it is. Old books I inherited. Now it's available for a fair 50€ considering the low amount of copies.

I was most fascinated about the connection to black holes. Parts of the rule set that spin off. Complete with explanation about the event horizont. Two and a half times I read it. I understand more and more and I start to get the notes too.

The background radiation explanation... Hate to say it but the parallels to a simulation are there.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

I read it, all of it... but only once (the online version).

And I'm happy to say: I absolutely share your enthusiasm. His approach is intriguing and I like the basic premise that everything can be explained by the simplest rules. And it's all based on a discrete system, although this brings us closer to "The Matrix" and certainly deserves a thread of its own.

However, he also theorizes how (in his theory) the construction of spacetime itself could go about, which might again tie into this thread. I understood that Wolfram himself still had open questions in regards to the very beginning of how the information is structured in his discrete universe (something he's still working on, I guess).

It's a very intriguing concept, indeed, and getting a better grip on spacetime itself (and other aspects that are intertwined) could definitely be one of the things his work might provide.

a reply to: jeep3r

This is an exciting development!

Another 50 years of seeing nothing but more rocks, mountains, etc. is depressing.

LIFE FORM variations is where the action and excitement will lie!

S&F for a hopeful/encouraging thread.

a reply to: jeep3r

The structural question is a hard nut to crack. It ties into the big bang, background radiation and how far we can look back.

Compute back... Could we start parallel universes if we know how to trigger it? Maybe time travel will trigger this. For that reason I am a strong advocator of infinity but not randomness. In my opinion, the observation of random only results from lack of information on the process.

Then there is the argument about computing power to simulate. What if there is a pattern, a easy workaround that collapses the branches of rules and makes easy obtaining of information possible, about any chosen moment.

Literally taking the time dimension away. Lot of "ifs" but to jailbreak the settled thinking, out of the box thinking is required. So I soak up everything and still map out the whole construct in my imagination. Keeping things relative, scanning for connections to experimental physics.

Someting that sticks out and there are some things. This is not my theory but I share it, from the notes. Maybe it's not 1:1 but like this. He was good at metaphoric examples.

Goes like this, just like in a computer, there are rules. Like routing small data packets around. Sometimes these rules might interfere with each other. Then unexpected but repeatable things happen. Other example is, a computer has memory. It knows where stuff is stored. For example the mouse pointer coordinates. If we know where and how to access this spot in the memory and change it, we can manipulate. Going deeper with the example is if we know more about where the memory space is, maybe we can escalate other things that then interfere with the chosen memory space. Maybe that's what quantum entanglement is connected to.

Like you have boxes and each box has the information. Now you pour too much information in one box and it flows over. It flows into the next box or surrounding ones. If you know what you do, I was told you can interfere with other things.

If you can find the spot where the decision is made where stuff goes, you unlock the key to change everything. Transfered to the real world, changing reality. But would the consequences and interefering with other rule sets be fatal? Can reality/physics crash? Come to a halt?

If so we would never notice, we would just stop to progress in time, maybe. Frozen or gone, would not matter.

a reply to: jeep3r

Just to throw the cat into the bag could this warp drive theorem somehow be used to create a form of time travel?.

IF the starting point in a wave model of the universe is warped outward does it then move backward in time if it moves faster than the speed of light and if so would that then enable a craft to warp away to a point were our time has not yet rippled out too and then warp back to a point earlier in time - of course the earth would not be were it was when it left due to its displacement over that time and actually be were it was along with the solar system at that earlier time but?.

Could flying saucers appearing to be coming from space therefore be our own descendants of future selves using this technology to travel back in time from a distant future point, I wonder how they would then get back to there own time unless they also have a relativistic drive that would allow them to wait it out on a relative speed journey before returning a bit older to there relative point of origin in time and space and if this method would allow them to stay in the same reality or would push them into a potential parallel reality.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: jeep3r
IF the starting point in a wave model of the universe is warped outward does it then move backward in time if it moves faster than the speed of light and if so would that then enable a craft to warp away to a point were our time has not yet rippled out too and then warp back to a point earlier in time - of course the earth would not be were it was when it left due to its displacement over that time and actually be were it was along with the solar system at that earlier time but?.

Yeah and what if the expansion is manifested because of something or someone is threatening to cross that boundary by warping space? What, just what if at some point in time, somewhere, an experiment or experimental warp drive went bonkers and never stopped warping out?

The chances for an accident like that are much³ higher than a working and safe drive on the first try.

Physic laws would dictate in order to see something, something must be there so if you surprise the physical laws they catch up. Mapping out space and time in front of you.

Again, it is sad that I understood this person well. I think we should be concentrating on getting up to the speed of light before starting to bend space time to see how the human body handles it. Building a bubble then projecting a beam to follow into to energize the shell and pull space around the ship would be possible, but you would need a pretty good size reactor to power the bubble and to power the ion engines. That could be the limiting factor. Possibly a molybdenum reactor would work to give that much power, but getting the molybdenum ionized that high would take a lot of power to load up. and a Uranium reactor would also need to be onboard, but that could be small because it would only be used to fire up the Molybdenum reaction. Molybdenum is best used for burst reactions, I do not know if you could control them for this application.

a reply to: jeep3r

Generally, there are no self-consistent warp drive solutions proposed in the literature which can self-accelerate at all from zero velocities, not to mention gain superluminal speeds.

How about we stop calling them drives then.

Warp drives are inertially moving shells of positive or negative energy material which enclose a ‘passenger’ region with a flat metric. The main feature distinguishing warp drives from trivial inertially moving low-mass shells is that the large amount of energy contained in the warp shell allows one to modify the state of spacetime inside it

So all the "drive" does is making clocks run faster or slower compared to the outside.

a reply to: jeep3r

I just had quite an interesting thought while looking at that space-time diagram in your post... we often wonder why so many UFO would appear as simple disc shape objects, but if they are using warp drives (which is basically the only viable way to travel interstellar distances) then we would only be seeing the warp bubble around the craft, we wouldn't be able to see the craft inside the bubble. That's why we just see this very basic reflective looking disc shape. It seems so obvious I'm not sure why it hasn't occurred to me before.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: jeep3r

I just had quite an interesting thought while looking at that space-time diagram in your post... we often wonder why so many UFO would appear as simple disc shape objects, but if they are using warp drives (which is basically the only viable way to travel interstellar distances) then we would only be seeing the warp bubble around the craft, we wouldn't be able to see the craft inside the bubble. That's why we just see this very basic reflective looking disc shape. It seems so obvious I'm not sure why it hasn't occurred to me before.

That's not true. Light will be able to transit a warp bubble. However, the curvature of the bubble will bend light rays, so that the object may look larger or smaller than it really is and can cause mirages (i.e., double images). Also, the color of the light will be changed. Specifically, the light coming out of an antigravitating warp bubble will blue shift the spectrum.

Hal Puthoff discusses some of this stuff in his paper "ADVANCED SPACE PROPULSION BASED ON VACUUM (SPACETIME METRIC) ENGINEERING" published in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (JBIS) Vol. 63, 2010.