Beyond A Reasonable Doubt - Part Four

Originally posted by Seapeople
Simon, real quick question.

Have you evere saw a man walk on water..without help of a floatation device? Just as described in the bible?

And by the way. I am not trying to disprove anything. I am only in the process of accurately showing a typical christians mindset (which includes yours).

typical christian mindset? well there isnt really a "typical" christian mindset. every one has there own little interpetation.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Herman, have you ever actually seen god?

i know that this is not directed at me, but ill take it anyways

im going to use the example that john glenn used when yuri gargarin said the he did not see God when he [gargarin] made his trip into space

glenn: the body cannot enter the demension(sp) where god exists.

thats not a word for word quote but its something cloes to it.

The whole "Can God create a rock that is to heavy to lift" thing doesn't really apply. God doesn't work in the realm of physics where things are heavier and lighter. It is like asking someone "Can you imagine a rock that you can't lift with telepathy?". The rock has been thought up in your head. You can imagine it to be whatever you want.

If god can stoop down to the level of human interaction and comes down from his heavenly throne it has to be detectable. If a 10 year old doesn’t understand Quantum Mechanics, how do you make him see things? You kneel down to his level( physically and mentally) and tell him about all those gluons and mesons and what not. This interaction has to mean that GOD follows OUR rules when he's down here. Simple! So this means that we can(Its not practical or wise) use our well-defined mathematical rules in our understanding of GOD. The impossibilities dont apply since we HAVE to follow those rules. We havent seen otherwise. Like Seapeople stated, unless we see one( just ONE counter-example is required to disprove anything) person walking on water w/o any technological aid, we have to assume that no one can.When driving to work every morning you HAVE to assume that the building you're working at is still standing cuz you havent seen otherwise. Sure, you can imagine that maybe o maybe its not there, woosh it might be gone, but for the sake of SANITY we have to assume its there. Also we know that this building can withstand any manmade or natural phenomenon. So you know its sound and NOTHING can destroy it. So you'd have no choice but to assume that it cannot fall. Same thing goes with the laws of phsyics. You'd have to have a big gaping black hole here on earth for someoen to defy the laws of physics. Lets work with the probables and the possibles to maintain sanity.


[edit on 23-3-2005 by I_s_i_s]

Originally posted by babloyi
The whole "Can God create a rock that is to heavy to lift" thing doesn't really apply. God doesn't work in the realm of physics where things are heavier and lighter. It is like asking someone "Can you imagine a rock that you can't lift with telepathy?". The rock has been thought up in your head. You can imagine it to be whatever you want.

Says who? You base that belief on what a book tells you. In the process you totally disregard our world. We live in a world with rules in mathematics and physics. Your bible was written by people in that world. People that by no means were even close to having any sort of understanding of their surroundings in most cases.

Now, mar, your answer is somewhat typical though. You see the impossible scenerio in your head. You acknoledge that it is impossible. Yet, you just accept that a book with contradictions out the wazoo telling you to believe in omnipotence, has more validity than the science and reality you observe every day. That my friend, is a fear of that reality. A fear that makes you deny the observations you make, just like the example of the christian and the door. Same thing.

God created the laws of Physics so he is not bound by them.

An infinite God cannot be limited by finite logic.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
God created the laws of Physics so he is not bound by them.

He sure is whenever he decides to interact with us creatures!
Thats where the belief of Atheists comes into play. If an almighty God exists, he wont come barging in our business.

Isis,

You have to realize that people like simon are incapable of understanding their own reality. They intentionally block out the horrifying consequences of an omnipotent god. If they thought about them, they would have to stop believing the way they do.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
An infinite God cannot be limited by finite logic.

Ok lets look at an example. God is like a 10 megapixel image all beautiful in its glory. We as humans are 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000'th part of 1 random pixel. Individual humans are like 1/(1/100000000000000000000000000000000000)'th part of the part of that pixel. YOu really think the almighty God would care to pull his microscope out? Dont you think he/she/it might have better things to do if he exists? Any individual to think is obviously deluded to think that they're so important.

I_s_i_s, your analogy is working against you. Whatever you do, it is very unlikely that a 10 year old comprehend Quantum Mechanics.
However, it is not really a logical assumption that God would be bound by physics and math when down here. In fact, it is not a logical assumption that God would have to be "down here" at all. An omnipotent God is not bound be space and time, and can be everywhere all the time.
Also, there is a difference between realising that there is a God, and comprehending that God. You can understand the existence of infinity, but you cannot encompass it in your mind. Therefore, SANITY has no play here.

Seapeople, I do not base what I said here on "my bible". I base it on logic. It is very possible that there is a God who created everything. If God created the laws of Math and Physics, it is logical that God can break them, or unmake them. By the way, what exactly are the "horrifying consequences of an omnipotent god"?

I_s_i_s, you are once again applying human logic to God. God doesn't have better or worse things to do. There is no loss to God by looking after everything. God is not bound by physics or math. Everything can be surveyed, at the same time without the slightest effort from God.

Seapeople, you never answered my question. Please answer it. Do you think that it's possibly for a God to exist?

Originally posted by Herman
Seapeople, you never answered my question. Please answer it. Do you think that it's possibly for a God to exist?

Herman, yes, I have answered your question countless times, and several times in this thread.

Yes, I believe it is a possiblity for a god to exist with qulifications. It is possible for a creating force of the universe to exist. However, it is physically impossible for that creating force to have any bearing on our lives. Though, I have stated this so many times that I cant count, I will explain it to you further AGAIN if you want.

In the meantime, take some reading classes, and go back through this thread. You will find that answer already listed.

I am not foolish enough like yourself to believe I do not have free will.

I want to also comment on your futile attempt to "get me with my own tactics". Funny. This afternoon, I will link all of the recent posts where I have come out, without being asked such as I did in this one, and admitted that a creating force may exist. Though it is not a guarantee.

Beyond all that, there is still a difference between you and I that clearly makes me a better person. You see, I admit in possibilities, very thought out ones at that. You do not admit in possibilities. It is likely that no creating force exists. You would never admit that because you are a coward. And if you did, your beliefs tell you that you would go to hell. Sheep....

Originally posted by babloyi
I_s_i_s, your analogy is working against you. Whatever you do, it is very unlikely that a 10 year old comprehend Quantum Mechanics.

babloyi, in order to educate a 10 yr old in QM one has to explain it in kiddy terms. My point was that you cannot explain it to a child in an adult way.
Do you seriously believe that a 10 yr old cannot be taught QM? Its very very difficult but its not impossible. One of my college alumni graduated with a Masters at the age of 19! I kid you not. His dad is a nobel prize holder. I dont know if it runs in the family. I'll try to find the name of the kid if I can.
Well, so, God had to follow the rules of humans when he's interacting with us. If he doesnt we wont either see it or know that interaction ever happened. What God does outside of our influence is not important. If he's all powerful he could be out there blowing up suns or creating suns or whatever he chooses to do to defy physics. Not here.

In fact, it is not a logical assumption that God would have to be "down here" at all.

There are countless "sightings" of God being down here in the religious texts. So now that we established he was infact down here( according to the texts ofcourse) he chooses not to do it from up there or wherever.
He needs a form, a voice, a face( in some cases), a certain image. These things only make sense to a human. So he DOES play by our rules. He has no choice does he? If he didnt, people wouldnt know what he wants them to do next right?

Also, there is a difference between realising that there is a God, and comprehending that God. You can understand the existence of infinity, but you cannot encompass it in your mind. Therefore, SANITY has no play here.

Agreed. If he exists, and is infinite we cannot comprehend him. We still have a hard time grasping the concept of infinity. When I mentioned sanity, I referred to the state of mind resulting in accepting logic. It had to do with walking on water and interactions with god. Not the comprehension of God.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Thats where the belief of Atheists comes into play. If an almighty God exists, he wont come barging in our business.

How would they know?

It is arrogant to believe that anyone can define and ascribe attributes to something they either don't believe in, fail to conceptualize or both. Wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Thats where the belief of Atheists comes into play. If an almighty God exists, he wont come barging in our business.

How would they know?

It is arrogant to believe that anyone can define and ascribe attributes to something they either don't believe in, fail to conceptualize or both. Wouldn't you agree?

Joe my friend, THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAY TO MYSELF WHEN I THINK OF YOUR POSTS!
Go figure! Ironic actually that you said that and not me.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
Thats where the belief of Atheists comes into play. If an almighty God exists, he wont come barging in our business.

How would they know?

It is arrogant to believe that anyone can define and ascribe attributes to something they either don't believe in, fail to conceptualize or both. Wouldn't you agree?

Joe my friend, THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAY TO MYSELF WHEN I THINK OF YOUR POSTS!
Go figure! Ironic actually that you said that and not me.

Ironic indeed. I'm no mind reader though, thanks for the thought. I just had a perception that arrogance was becoming a problem for you that you may need to get a handle on. It could have an adverse impact on other parts of your life- never know.

Be well-

I'd take arrogance over irrational, delusional, etc anyday! Thanks Joe.

Take care.

Originally posted by I_s_i_s
I'd take arrogance over irrational, delusional, etc anyday! Thanks Joe.

Take care.

Not a problem

I am amazed that so many people feel so knowledgeable about something that by their own admission they do not understand. Do you likewise find that somewhat amazing?

Just as an example (poor one to be sure), people that rant about say Panda Bears. I have to ask myself how many of these people have tried to comprehend the intricacies of Pandas much less the environment that they (the Panda) abide.

This would be like me (as for instance) trying to have a discourse with an aknowledged master of all things mathematics such as your self (for instance). That would make me pretty foolish, would you agree?

[edit on 24-3-2005 by JoeDoaks]

Originally posted by Seapeople
Isis,

You have to realize that people like simon are incapable of understanding their own reality. They intentionally block out the horrifying consequences of an omnipotent god. If they thought about them, they would have to stop believing the way they do.

You see, atheists such as yourself jump on seemingly logical tricks that disprove omnipotence without first thinking them through. Your 'can God make a rock so big even he can't lift it' example is a fallacy. It is the irresistable force vs immovable object fallacy where failure at something is seen as success. Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? No, but that's because he can make a rock that is infinite in size and still lift it. I don't see where omnipotence is negated when you think the problem through rationally. Something atheists like you seem to be unable to do...