Beyond A Reasonable Doubt - Part Four

Originally posted by Herman
Seapeople: JoeDoaks wasn't saying that this is what DID happen. He's saying that if Jesus wasn't the son of God, God still could have found ways to make this happen.

[edit on 19-3-2005 by Herman]

Thanks for the direction. What you seem to have missed in your infinite wisdom oh wise herman is that if god was to cause anything to happen at all, then he could cause anything to happen. Thought you knew that. It is this prinicpal that I challenge. You seem to think I am challenging the events in particular. I absolutely am not doing that. I am attacking the bible in its entirety.

Something else you seem to be missing (since you are in defense of this) is that YOU NEVER ONCE SAW SOMEONE WALK ON WATER! However, you have seen things sink. Why in the heck would you just assume something is possible when every single ounce of your reality tells you it is not? You keep claiming that I am the one who is afraid. I don't fear death buddy. I don't fear much of anything except spiders for some reason. Thats irrelevant. You see, you fear. You are afraid that it could be nothing that you are in store for. Absolutely nothing. Thats a possibilty regardless of whatever your religion or faith.

It is the fear of this that keeps people like you as "astute" as you show us you are every day.

Simon, buddy, you are showing how smart you are as well daily. I loved the whole bowling analogy. One problem. IT IS POSSIBLE IN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS TO BOWL A PERFECT GAME. NOTHING AT ALL FORBIDS IT. However, not one law of physics anywhere allows for a human to simply waqlk on water. The fact that you have made this analogy astounds me. Its amazing that there is more than the 5 or so of you who constantly attack me alive. GOod thing humans have compasion, or you would have missed the "only the strong survive" mark and died in your early youth due to a lack of common sense and intelligence.

[edit on 3/21/2005 by Seapeople]

So now PHYSICS is the ultimate arbiter?

Not being a mathematician myself I can't equate that argument, so help me out if someone cares to.

What are the equations for:

love,
fear,
anger,
lust,
desire,
attention.
interest

That's enough for now. I will have a hard time digesting just these few equations. If science is all powerful and able to explain everything there should be no trouble helping me understand how to mathematically understand these. Right?

Now if science can not PROVE what causes these known emotions then where am I left? Logic? If so, then could someone take the time and provide me with a little understanding of the logic behind any of the above that science fails to prove?

Help me out here. Show me that compassion that is posted above. I can't really grasp it in the context that as used.

Thank you
.

.

What are the equations for:

love=Human Delusion
fear=Human Delusion,
anger=Human Delusion,
lust=Human Delusion,
desire=Human Delusion,
attention=Human Delusion.
interest=Human Delusion
Walking on water= Impossible( Seapeople Insert your high school physics book here)

How about I just insert the lessons I learned in my second grade swimming class?

No no, Joe has specifically asked for sophisticated mathematical equations. He doesnt trust things he sees with his eyes. He needs mathematical proof. He also needs the definition of Love in mathematical equations. He needs to explain to me what love has to do with walking on water and mathematical proofs.

Herman, can you please explain to Joe the difference between proving something based on faith and based on fact?
Thanks

Seapeople: First let me clear something up. You made a reference to us attacking you, when it is YOU who is attacking Christianity. It's fine if you don't believe in God, but you're trying to tell us that we can't have our beliefs, or that they are stupid. That being said:

You seem to assume that science has everything figured out. You seem to be assuming that science has an answer for everything. It doesn't. Even scientists admit that there is much more to learn! God created the universe, and is not bound by the laws of physics that HE created. In fact, there are many scientists now adays who are beginning to believe in God. Not necessarily the Christian God, but the 'creator'. I'm not saying that any random person could walk on water but given he was the son of God, and endowed by some of his powers, he could perform miracles outside the "laws" of physics.

Originally posted by Herman
Seapeople: First let me clear something up. You made a reference to us attacking you, when it is YOU who is attacking Christianity. It's fine if you don't believe in God, but you're trying to tell us that we can't have our beliefs, or that they are stupid. That being said:

You seem to assume that science has everything figured out. You seem to be assuming that science has an answer for everything. It doesn't. Even scientists admit that there is much more to learn! God created the universe, and is not bound by the laws of physics that HE created. In fact, there are many scientists now adays who are beginning to believe in God. Not necessarily the Christian God, but the 'creator'. I'm not saying that any random person could walk on water but given he was the son of God, and endowed by some of his powers, he could perform miracles outside the "laws" of physics.

Oh herman, how lovely. Maybe you ought to better pay attention to what I say before you go accusing me of implying things I havent. I know full well there is much to learn. On a near daily basis I give my little lectures about what science does not understand. I know there are truths that we cannot know at least as of yet in regards to math and science. However, there are things we do know.

That being said, the simple fact that objects more dense than water will sink, is one of those things we do know. Play your word games with me all you want, and it will never change the fact that gravity combined with density do not allow for it.

Sophisticated? Did I use that word? I can't find it in my post.

Ask for some simple things and get a wash job, what a hoot. Let's make it different as it appears math or physics may not be a strong point of anyone in this thread.

Physically speaking- where did the universe come from? I don't believe it came from anywhere but God, but that's belief. Is there another place I should look for this answer?

I am comfortable with the Christian God as the creator of all natural things that I am aware of. Man, animal and other growing things created 'stuff' as well. Let's place those to the side momentarily if you don't care.

Who knows, together we may just discover how Jesus Christ walked on water. We may discover how the God of Abraham and Isaac part a sea. We may discover a great many things working together.

What say you?
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Sophisticated? Did I use that word? I can't find it in my post.

Ask for some simple things and get a wash job, what a hoot. Let's make it different as it appears math or physics may not be a strong point of anyone in this thread.

Actually what you ask for Joe, cannot be represented mathematically. I guess I'm not the "know it all" you declared me to be. Im actually going to grad school for applied math. I still dont understand a lot of things in my classes.
So many things, like seapeople said, are out of our reach to prove. But certain things are already logically explained. Walking on water is one such thing.

Physically speaking- where did the universe come from? I don't believe it came from anywhere but God, but that's belief. Is there another place I should look for this answer?

Thats a whole can of worms Joe. Maybe we should open up another thread for this. Scientists and Theoligists are scratching their heads for that answer. What makes you think you and I can answer it so quickly? What makes you think there IS an answer? What makes you think what YOU think is true? Why does the universe have to have a begining? The idea of multiple universes isnt science fiction anymore. So what if there is more than one universe? Who created each? Which is the first? The only way to try to get closer to these answers is to eliminate the ones you know NOT to be true. But if you say that its your belief that your god created this universe then thats that. I'm not gonna argue with that. Just dont try to prove it. When you do that, you enter the realm of science. And then its just ...well..not pretty.

Originally posted by Seapeople
On a near daily basis I give my little lectures about what science does not understand. I know there are truths that we cannot know at least as of yet in regards to math and science.

Ah, then would you say it's possible (Possible, but not that you believe it) that this universe was greated by a God? Not necessarily the Christian God (I'm not trying to get you to believe in my religion, just to show you that it's not just a bunch of B.S.), but a creator in general?

If so, then is it possible that this creator is not bound by the limitations that he gave us?

If not, then why? You admitted yourself that there are still things that we have to learn. Something along the line came from nothing. The impossibility of something coming from nothing, yet it still existing is just one of the many reasons why I believe in God.

Seapeople, science is not (using JoeDoak phrase) "the ultimate arbiter". Scientists can use math to explain what happened even upto microseconds after the instant of creation of the universe, but when they get TO the instant of creation, math fails. Also, for Christians, God created all, including the laws of physics. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to belive God can break them as well.
Besides, despite how annoying this arguement sounds, just because one has not seen it happen, doesn't mean it can't.

Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by Herman
Seapeople: JoeDoaks wasn't saying that this is what DID happen. He's saying that if Jesus wasn't the son of God, God still could have found ways to make this happen.

[edit on 19-3-2005 by Herman]

Thanks for the direction. What you seem to have missed in your infinite wisdom oh wise herman is that if god was to cause anything to happen at all, then he could cause anything to happen. Thought you knew that. It is this prinicpal that I challenge. You seem to think I am challenging the events in particular. I absolutely am not doing that. I am attacking the bible in its entirety.

Something else you seem to be missing (since you are in defense of this) is that YOU NEVER ONCE SAW SOMEONE WALK ON WATER! However, you have seen things sink. Why in the heck would you just assume something is possible when every single ounce of your reality tells you it is not? You keep claiming that I am the one who is afraid. I don't fear death buddy. I don't fear much of anything except spiders for some reason. Thats irrelevant. You see, you fear. You are afraid that it could be nothing that you are in store for. Absolutely nothing. Thats a possibilty regardless of whatever your religion or faith.

It is the fear of this that keeps people like you as "astute" as you show us you are every day.

Simon, buddy, you are showing how smart you are as well daily. I loved the whole bowling analogy. One problem. IT IS POSSIBLE IN THE LAWS OF PHYSICS TO BOWL A PERFECT GAME. NOTHING AT ALL FORBIDS IT. However, not one law of physics anywhere allows for a human to simply waqlk on water. The fact that you have made this analogy astounds me. Its amazing that there is more than the 5 or so of you who constantly attack me alive. GOod thing humans have compasion, or you would have missed the "only the strong survive" mark and died in your early youth due to a lack of common sense and intelligence.

[edit on 3/21/2005 by Seapeople]

Ok, my analogy was crap. However I believe God as an omnipotent being can do anything. I believe Jesus is God in human form, therefore I believe that he too can do anything.

At least you are being honest.

Have you ever tried to think through the logical consequences of an omnipotent god? There are many traps along the way. Can god create a rock he cannot lift?

If he can, then he can't lift the rock thus rendering him not omnipotent.

If he cannot, then he can't create something also rendering him, not omnipotent.

It is imposible for both to exist simultaneously. That is unless you make a conscious decision to disregard what you know to be true, in leiu of what you wish and hope to be true. There are far more serious complications that arise out of the belief that a god could be omnipotent. Those consequences are astounding. What is more astounding than that is that there are people who simply ignore them such as yourself.

It is one thing for you to believe in this. It is another thing to do so by disregarding factual evidence and information to the contrary. When I constantly tell the christians on this site that they intentionally make themselves stupid, this is the type of thing I refer too. Christians choose to believe in something when they know otherwise. Logically, most of us are capable of seeing the consequences of this belief system on a fundamental level. Illogically, christians disregard it.

An analogy that a good friend gave me a few days ago fits well here. It is as if we were both standing in a room. I tell you to look to your right. When you look you see a door. You quickly look away. I tell you, "there is a door over there." You respond, "No there isn't". Puzzled, I walk over to the door and say, "Yes there is, look", while I knock on it. Again, you see it, but this time you hear it as well. However, you still respond by saying, "No there isn't." I get aggitated and yell, "Yes there is!". You get mad and begin to storm out of the room. BAAAAAAMMMMM, you hit your face off the door and feel it, you hear it, and you see it. Again, while you are getting up off the floor I tell you, "See, there is a door". And as expected you deny it yet again. You then physically interact with the door by opening it, hearing it open, seeing it open, and feeling the door knob. You walk through the door and out of the room denying still that the door exists.

These consequences exist. You just deny it.

[edit on 3/22/2005 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by Seapeople
Can god create a rock he cannot lift?

I believe it was homer simpson's quest for the gist of life that made him question: "Can God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself cannot eat it?"

There's nothing wrong with having a very very powerful noninterfering God. But Omnipotent? Cant happen.
A famous defense that comes to mind is: But why would God want to create such a rock? Well doesnt that mean he's afraid of failure?

That is a good defense on the surface ISIS, however, it is not when you look further into it. In reality, it is irrelevant to whether or not he would want to. He can't do it regardless. Do you like the other analogy?

Originally posted by Seapeople
That is a good defense on the surface ISIS, however, it is not when you look further into it. In reality, it is irrelevant to whether or not he would want to. He can't do it regardless. Do you like the other analogy?

Yea, its not a defense I'd come up with. Just thought you might get that. So I threw that in. I personally think its irrelevant. But then again. Thats just me.
If God is so powerful you think he/she/it would be sitting there going "hmm...ok lets see..little jimmy wants to pass his SATs...hmm...world peace...jimmy's SATs...world peace....hmmm..."
I like the burrito analogy, despite my dislike for burritos.

P.S. Pd Tm.

Simon I saw a 300 game once!

I_s_i_s what happened to your intellect? Why couldn't you give me some fundamental mathematical stupendosity? From your brash flounts I expected so much more. Sophomoric insults should be beneath a graduate student, wouldn't others in your classes agree?

Seapeople where to begin- get a grip on your own thread here. You opened with a poor lawyer that should have been fired asking questions of some preacher/minister that relate to what?

Was there any point to this thread anyway?

Nope, no point. Just so you know....criticizing the lawyer really isnt going to bother me too much. But nice try. You see, I never went to law school. I do however, know how to point out whats relevant.

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

I_s_i_s what happened to your intellect? Why couldn't you give me some fundamental mathematical stupendosity? From your brash flounts I expected so much more. Sophomoric insults should be beneath a graduate student, wouldn't others in your classes agree?

Excuse me? What "stupendosity" are we talking about? Do you bother READING posts before you post yourself? I cannot "flount" out any equations defining LOVE. If you find someone that can, please enlighten me. I dont think they teach you that in GRAD SCHOOL. Apparently that tells a lot about the kinda schooling you've had.

Seapeople: You never answered my question. Seeing as how you believe science hasn't figured everything out yet, do you believe it is possible for a creator to have created our universe? I'm not saying do you believe that it DID happen, but do you believe it's possible?