God Doesnt Exist

Every Invention has a Creator
From the cavemans spear to the atomic bomb

Humans are a creation of God
or to an atheist your parents invented you by having sex

Unicorns are a product of the imagination. They dont exist in the world but they do exist the mind

Things dont spring up out of nothing.

Originally posted by suremapper
Things dont spring up out of nothing.

...nor do things disappear back into nothingness.

Combining these two tells us that physical existence is eternal, and thus was not created.

When you die you will meet God
He will ask you "Do you believe in me"
You will say proudly "No I am an atheist"
Then God will say "You reject me so I will reject you"
You will cease to exist

Originally posted by suremapper
When you die you will meet God
He will ask you "Do you believe in me"
You will say proudly "No I am an atheist"
Then God will say "You reject me so I will reject you"
You will cease to exist

:shk: How cliche. Do you honestly think I haven't heard that absurd veiled threat at least a 1000 times?

Your knowledge of god is no different than mine - none. The difference is, you confuse wishfull thinking (faith) with knowledge.

But given the choice of annihilation vs. singing alelluia forever and ever, the first choice sounds preferable.

Now here's the other side of the coin. When a loved one of yours dies, that will be the moment at which others will expect you to lean on your faith, and will attempt to comfort you in that manner. But in reality, you will feel abandoned by god, and question his existence. That will double the pain and emotion you will be going through.

My life's situation has put me in the position of witnessing death and tradgedy first hand on occasion. It rarely fails that those who supposedly have faith call it into question at the very moment it is supposedly going to help you. You can't imagine the sense of abandonment they feel. That pain (in addition to the pain of losing your loved one) lingers on long after the funeral.

I on the other hand, realize that death is final, and will not have insult added to injury by having to fiegn faith at the very moment such faith is called into question. At that time, you will be tortured by the thought that death might be final, as you have never seriously considered it up to that moment.

So, there is in fact a cost for faith at the very moment it's alleged to bring comfort, in addition to the daily costs, while the alleged consequences for lack of faith conveniently happen in an unverifiable way.

Have you ever thought about how completely rediculous it is that the one thing god cares about more than anything else, is that we abandon the reasoning he supposedly designed us to have, and simply believe? What's so glorious about blind wishfull thinking that makes it the only thing that really matters to god?



[edit on 13-6-2005 by spamandham]

Originally posted by spamandham
Your knowledge of god is no different than mine - none.

I disagree. I will even go as far to say that my knowledge is different than other Christians. I'm not saying more or less than other Christians, but I am saying different. I've been given very specific instruction and direction, that'd be of less use to someone next to me. All general knowledge and instruction, that which we as Christians are to agree with God upon, is in the Bible.

Originally posted by spamandham
The difference is, you confuse wishfull thinking (faith) with knowledge.

I have my proof. In addition to proof, I have faith in what has yet to be proven.

Originally posted by spamandham
But given the choice of annihilation vs. singing alelluia forever and ever, the first choice sounds preferable.

Sorry to hear you think so poorly of yourself....and so poorly of the phrase "eternal happiness". Is it possible that I value you more than you value you?

Originally posted by spamandham
Now here's the other side of the coin. When a loved one of yours dies, that will be the moment at which others will expect you to lean on your faith, and will attempt to comfort you in that manner. But in reality, you will feel abandoned by god, and question his existence. That will double the pain and emotion you will be going through.

James chapter 1. Since I'm not allowed to quote, I'll leave it at that. From pain comes growth. It's the same physically. When you excercise, if you don't sweat, strain and become sore, are you really working out? Spiritually we must overcome challenges to gain strength.

Originally posted by spamandham
My life's situation has put me in the position of witnessing death and tradgedy first hand on occasion. It rarely fails that those who supposedly have faith call it into question at the very moment it is supposedly going to help you. You can't imagine the sense of abandonment they feel. That pain (in addition to the pain of losing your loved one) lingers on long after the funeral.

I would like to hear more about it if you're willing to U2U me. It may help me answer some questions of my own.

Originally posted by spamandham
I on the other hand, realize that death is final, and will not have insult added to injury by having to fiegn faith at the very moment such faith is called into question. At that time, you will be tortured by the thought that death might be final, as you have never seriously considered it up to that moment.

So, there is in fact a cost for faith at the very moment it's alleged to bring comfort, in addition to the daily costs, while the alleged consequences for lack of faith conveniently happen in an unverifiable way.

Have you ever thought about how completely rediculous it is that the one thing god cares about more than anything else, is that we abandon the reasoning he supposedly designed us to have, and simply believe? What's so glorious about blind wishfull thinking that makes it the only thing that really matters to god?

I don't believe in wishful thinking. I required proof and got it. I cannot give you my proof because it's impossible for you to experience exactly what I did when I did. I can offer to help you find your proof if you want it.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Your knowledge of god is no different than mine - none.

I disagree.

Knowledge is not a matter of opinion. If you have knowledge, why not share the basis of it with the rest of us? To make it easier, here's a list of things that are not valid for determination of knowledge of god: the Bible, "a burning in my bosom", "I hear god talk to me in my head", "I feel ecstatic when I pray", "my pastor told me", "my mom told me". All of these are unextraordinary.

Originally posted by saint4God
I have my proof. In addition to proof, I have faith in what has yet to be proven.

If you have proof, please share. Faith is not evidence of anything other than your willingness to believe without proof. If you have proof, then you don't have faith, you have merely drawn a rational conclusion. Faith applies when a rational conclusion can not be drawn. That's what makes it faith. To paraphrase Paul, "faith is belief in that which is hoped for".

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry to hear you think so poorly of yourself....and so poorly of the phrase "eternal happiness". Is it possible that I value you more than you value you?

How can you reasonably assess that I think poorly about myself based on an aversion to the rediculous descriptions of the afterlife given in the Bible (specifically Revelation)? That's pretty insulting and arrogant. :shk:

Originally posted by saint4God
James chapter 1. Since I'm not allowed to quote, I'll leave it at that. From pain comes growth.

The point is, there is a real cost to faith in the here and now that is exacted at precisely the time faith is supposed to be of comfort. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the following emotional plea, "If you don't have faith, how will you deal with the loss of a loved one." But this plea is a lie. Faith causes you not to consider the possibility that death is final until you're facing it, and your mind forces the issue to the surface. At that time, you will be dealing with not only the pain caused by losing a loved one, but you will also have to deal with your faith induced cognitive dissonance.

Originally posted by saint4God
I would like to hear more about it if you're willing to U2U me. It may help me answer some questions of my own.

I prefer to discuss it in the open. I won't say exactly why I've been a witness (don't worry, there's no foul play going on), but I have been a spectator as parents have had to pull the plug. I've also been involved in the support groups as a spectator, and attended such funerals, and have been involved with these parents months and years later. It's so tragic to watch them battle their faith induced psychosis as they are also dealing with their loss.

Faith fails at the exact moment it's supposed to bring comfort, because our brains are inherently rational, and our subconscious brings everything to the surface in times of high emotion. Your subconscious knows you are lying to yourself. You can suppress that knowledge day to day, but will remain an emotional midget by doing so.

It takes a lot of pondering to come to grips with the obvious fact that death is final. All credible evidence leads to that conclusion. It's hard to deal with at first, and you can put off dealing with it by accepting faith, but it's unlikely you'll be able to put it off forever unless you die a quick death before any of your loved ones go.

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't believe in wishful thinking. I required proof and got it.

Then you don't have faith. You believe because you have seen (at least to your satisfaction). You have drawn a rational conclusion, assuming your evidence is credible to you.

Originally posted by saint4God
Pray, train, study,
God bless.

What makes you so sure I haven't already been down that road?

Originally posted by spamandham
Knowledge is not a matter of opinion. If you have knowledge, why not share the basis of it with the rest of us?

Because my knowledge is disputed as delusion or other such nonesense. If you know a way around this, I'm all ears.

Originally posted by spamandham
To make it easier, here's a list of things that are not valid for determination of knowledge of god: the Bible, "a burning in my bosom", "I hear god talk to me in my head", "I feel ecstatic when I pray", "my pastor told me", "my mom told me". All of these are unextraordinary.

Hold up. What makes one sense more valid than the other? What makes hearing less proof than seeing? What makes feeling less valid than reading? By the way, I have witnessed (using that sight sense we so eagerly depend on) some of the parties involved in the Bible as well as other senses. Again, I'll get more accusations of delusion or something. I can share my story but it would mean nothing since it was not something you experienced. All I can do is offer to help you get the proof you require to gain faith in all that you do not require proof in.

Originally posted by spamandham
If you have proof, please share.

I have my proof recorded on MS Word doc. and it's several pages. I'd be willing to send it to you if you think it will help. Again, it's not going to make someone else believe.

Originally posted by spamandham
Faith is not evidence of anything other than your willingness to believe without proof. If you have proof, then you don't have faith, you have merely drawn a rational conclusion. Faith applies when a rational conclusion can not be drawn. That's what makes it faith. To paraphrase Paul, "faith is belief in that which is hoped for".

I'm good for this statement. I have the proof I need to believe, not proof of what God looks like. There are times that I wish I required less proof, being that I'm a skeptic, but that is who I am and graciously God was kind enough to work with me on it.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry to hear you think so poorly of yourself....and so poorly of the phrase "eternal happiness". Is it possible that I value you more than you value you?

How can you reasonably assess that I think poorly about myself based on an aversion to the rediculous descriptions of the afterlife given in the Bible (specifically Revelation)? That's pretty insulting and arrogant. :shk:

I did not mean any insult nor arrogance. You would prefer annihilation over singing alleliua? Why would anyone prefer self destruction over singing praises? Apologies for misunderstanding and offending, but this statement does not hold anyone in high self-esteem from what I can see.

Originally posted by spamandham
The point is, there is a real cost to faith in the here and now that is exacted at precisely the time faith is supposed to be of comfort. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the following emotional plea, "If you don't have faith, how will you deal with the loss of a loved one." But this plea is a lie. Faith causes you not to consider the possibility that death is final until you're facing it, and your mind forces the issue to the surface. At that time, you will be dealing with not only the pain caused by losing a loved one, but you will also have to deal with your faith induced cognitive dissonance.

If you have doubt, how can you have faith?

Originally posted by spamandham
I prefer to discuss it in the open.

Works for me. Most people I've talked with don't want to fill a page with their personal history.

Originally posted by spamandham
I won't say exactly why I've been a witness (don't worry, there's no foul play going on), but I have been a spectator as parents have had to pull the plug. I've also been involved in the support groups as a spectator, and attended such funerals, and have been involved with these parents months and years later. It's so tragic to watch them battle their faith induced psychosis as they are also dealing with their loss.

Faith fails at the exact moment it's supposed to bring comfort, because our brains are inherently rational, and our subconscious brings everything to the surface in times of high emotion. Your subconscious knows you are lying to yourself. You can suppress that knowledge day to day, but will remain an emotional midget by doing so.

Faith doesn't make personal loss 'all better'. I don't know where that's supposed to be coming from. Christians grieve for their loss, not the person who died. If the person who died is a believer, then by all means go New Orleans style. Have a parade down the streets with a jazz band to celebrate their life and moving on. That's just me though. Different people grieve differently. Faith is the thing that makes the sunshine seem brighter in the morning.

Originally posted by spamandham
It takes a lot of pondering to come to grips with the obvious fact that death is final.

Already faced all that. It put me into a depression lasting several months. That's why I challenged God, Satan, Zeus, whoever. I got my answer.

Originally posted by spamandham
All credible evidence leads to that conclusion. It's hard to deal with at first, and you can put off dealing with it by accepting faith, but it's unlikely you'll be able to put it off forever unless you die a quick death before any of your loved ones go.

Per above, addressed.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't believe in wishful thinking. I required proof and got it.

Then you don't have faith. You believe because you have seen (at least to your satisfaction). You have drawn a rational conclusion, assuming your evidence is credible to you.

I have seen to my satisfaction, all in addition to that is faith. Proof was the springboard, faith keeps you in the air.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
Pray, train, study,
God bless.

What makes you so sure I haven't already been down that road?

Can you expand? Did you pray to God? Did you get answers? What 'training' did you do? What books did you study? What blessings have you received?

I know, lots of questions, but that's why I'm usually asking these in U2U so as to not side-track the original topic.

May love, faith, and hope be with you.


[edit on 14-6-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Because my knowledge is disputed as delusion or other such nonesense. If you know a way around this, I'm all ears.

How do you know it isn't merely self deception or some other form of delusion?

Originally posted by saint4God
By the way, I have witnessed (using that sight sense we so eagerly depend on) some of the parties involved in the Bible as well as other senses.

Rather than arguing with you about whether or not you're deluded, I'll just take at face value that something has happened that you find convincing. But can't you see that you have no way to really share that with others in a way they will find credible? If god has made a revelation to you, then he has chosen you. I have not been likewise chosen.

But even if I did have an experience where I sat around and talked to the universe, I would be inclined to assume I was deluded. Why? Because these types of things happen to people all the time in the state halfway between sleep and awake. Protestants talk to Jesus, Catholics talk to Mary and Jesus, Buddhists talk to Buddha, Muslims talk to Mohamed, people who believe in aliens get abducted etc.

Originally posted by saint4God
I have my proof recorded on MS Word doc. and it's several pages. I'd be willing to send it to you if you think it will help. Again, it's not going to make someone else believe.

If it isn't verifiable in some way, then it's probably not worth the time. Did you learn any specific low probability prophecies that you could not have guessed at or made a reasonable inference form what you already knew? More importantly, did they tell you anything at all that you know is not true, or is counter to what you previously believed?

Originally posted by saint4God
There are times that I wish I required less proof, being that I'm a skeptic, but that is who I am and graciously God was kind enough to work with me on it.

Well, since you seem to have his favor, why not ask for similar proof for other skeptics as well?

Originally posted by saint4God
I did not mean any insult nor arrogance. You would prefer annihilation over singing alleliua? Why would anyone prefer self destruction over singing praises? Apologies for misunderstanding and offending, but this statement does not hold anyone in high self-esteem from what I can see.

Endlessly singing alleluia is pretty damned pointless and silly. Is god's ego so fragile that he has to have infinitely inferior beings constantly praising him? Even if you just do it out of awe, you've still basically lost yourself. If that's really what it's like, annihilation would be an act of mercy rather than a loss of self worth. I would not want to spend my next forever being a mindless drone.

Are you inconvenienced in the least by the time you spent not existing prior to birth (or conception if you prefer)? The time that follows after your existence is no more inconvenient than that. (paraphrasing Samuel Clements).

Originally posted by saint4God
If you have doubt, how can you have faith?

You don't really. That's the point. You only think you have faith. It's a form of self deception that breaks down at the least convenient time.

Originally posted by saint4God
Faith doesn't make personal loss 'all better'. I don't know where that's supposed to be coming from.

It isn't that faith makes loss better, the point is that it makes loss worse!

Originally posted by saint4God
Christians grieve for their loss, not the person who died.

Sorry, but my BS meter just went off the scale.

Suppose someone you really loved had a special skill of some kind, and was needed in a far away land for some noble reason. When they left, you knew you would not get to see them again, or hear from them again for say, the next 50 years, but after that you would be with them forever. You could still write to them and know they would get your messages, but because the land is so far away and so backwards, there was no way they could contact you back or return for a visit, and there's no way for you to visit them either.

You would be sad. You would grieve. And from time to time you would miss them and write them a letter reminding them you still care and can't wait to see them. That's what death should be like for a true believer.

But it isn't. Believers lose it and go nuts just like everyone else, because their faith is called into question at times of great suffering.

Originally posted by saint4God
Already faced all that. It put me into a depression lasting several months. That's why I challenged God, Satan, Zeus, whoever. I got my answer.

I'm sorry to hear about your period of depression, and I certainly wouldn't want you to relapse.

Originally posted by saint4God
I have seen to my satisfaction, all in addition to that is faith. Proof was the springboard, faith keeps you in the air.

Call it faith if you want, but I know that if I jump off a springboard I will fall back to earth due to gravity. I don't need any faith in gravity to conclude that, because I have sufficient evidence of it already. I really don't see how there's any room for faith if you already have proof, unless your proof is not as convincing as you've alluded.

IMHO, you should not abandon your faith, but can you see why it doesn't make for a convincing argument to someone else?

Originally posted by saint4God
Can you expand? Did you pray to God? Did you get answers? What 'training' did you do? What books did you study? What blessings have you received?

Oh yes. I begged and pleaded to god to give me the one thing the Bible claims he absolutely will give to all who ask - I prayed for faith. But I didn't receive it. I made the mistake a lot of ex-christians made. After he failed to deliver on his promise, I went searching for proof by studying the Bible intensely, and reading every book in support of my desired beliefs I could find.

The thing is, the more I read and learned, the more I began to notice the obvious contradictions and errors, and the totally unconvincing nature of the nonexistent evidence. You simply can't achieve faith through evidence. It's a shame people like Kent Hovind haven't figured that out.

If there is a personal god of some kind, it's 100% up to him who believes and who doesn't. Thus far, I'm apparently on the naughty list.

spamandham:

You have a delusion that God doesent exit

Why is that??

Originally posted by spamandham
How do you know it isn't merely self deception or some other form of delusion?

See what I mean? When we go to school, the teacher is exposing us to
new concepts and knowledge that we were not previously exposed to. Are we self-deceptively/delusionally teaching ourselves?

Originally posted by spamandham
Rather than arguing with you about whether or not you're deluded, I'll just take at face value that something has happened that you find convincing. But can't you see that you have no way to really share that with others in a way they will find credible?

It did sadden me at first, yes, but I'm not here to prove my experience. I'm here to help others to get the proof they need.

Originally posted by spamandham
If god has made a revelation to you, then he has chosen you. I have not been likewise chosen.

This one gets tricky. *zips up the flak vest* I believe God gives us the power to choose to accept Him or not. If this is not true, then why did He ask me to spread His word both from the mouth of His son in the written Word and directly? If everyone is already selected since birth, then what's the point of having me and others do this? Why did he send His Son to teach us? Why did His Son die to give us the ability to accept Him? The day I planned suicide, would He have stopped me had I decided to go through with it? I doubt it. He gave us our minds and free-will for a reason. He has a plan. All we have to decide is whether to accept or reject it.

Originally posted by spamandham
But even if I did have an experience where I sat around and talked to the universe, I would be inclined to assume I was deluded. Why? Because these types of things happen to people all the time in the state halfway between sleep and awake. Protestants talk to Jesus, Catholics talk to Mary and Jesus, Buddhists talk to Buddha, Muslims talk to Mohamed, people who believe in aliens get abducted etc.

I understand where you're coming from. All these claims, what is true? My proposition is not to believe in me, but to go straight to the source. I asked Zeus, God, Satan, and whoever to show up and prove they exist and I would believe. This is a dangerously stupid thing to do on my part because of who showed up. My advice is to first talk to God and ask Him. Seek Him out.

Originally posted by spamandham
If it isn't verifiable in some way, then it's probably not worth the time. Did you learn any specific low probability prophecies that you could not have guessed at or made a reasonable inference form what you already knew? More importantly, did they tell you anything at all that you know is not true, or is counter to what you previously believed?

Prophecy? I did not ask for prophecy, I asked for revelation and that's what I got. If I said something would happen and it did, it would not make anyone believe. They'd say it was coincidence or that I was a practicioner of some dark art. Even if they did believe, they'd come to me for answers instead of Him. Prophecy is useless in my work. What matters is Him and people right now, not what happens next.

Originally posted by spamandham
Well, since you seem to have his favor, why not ask for similar proof for other skeptics as well?

You got it! And I do, though I can also say it's helpful when I'm specific and put in lots of effort. Be patient please, I'm working on this with you. Your willingness to accept proof is a very important start I think. There are some, believe it or not, who will receive proof and still deny. Kinda like Jonah dissing his mission or Thomas who had to put his finger in Jesus' side because seeing apparently was not enough proof.

Originally posted by spamandham
Endlessly singing alleluia is pretty damned pointless and silly.

I would agree that singing without feeling it would be pointless and silly. I seriously doubt heaven is going to be a boring constant hymn session. I'm thinking much more of a party, with God as the host. I hear clean-up is a snap. Still, to prefer elimination sounds very depressing and valueless.

Originally posted by spamandham
Is god's ego so fragile that he has to have infinitely inferior beings constantly praising him?

No.

Originally posted by spamandham
Even if you just do it out of awe, you've still basically lost yourself. If that's really what it's like, annihilation would be an act of mercy rather than a loss of self worth. I would not want to spend my next forever being a mindless drone.

Why would God give us individuality, self-worth, and free will just to take it away again? Being destroyed, dissolve into nothing is more like Hell in Christian terms.

Originally posted by spamandham
Are you inconvenienced in the least by the time you spent not existing prior to birth (or conception if you prefer)? The time that follows after your existence is no more inconvenient than that. (paraphrasing Samuel Clements).

How do you know?

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
If you have doubt, how can you have faith?

You don't really. That's the point. You only think you have faith. It's a form of self deception that breaks down at the least convenient time.

If it breaks down then it's broken/lost faith. The only way I or anyone could prove this to you is by testing it, which God says will happen according to his word. It reminds me of Job, Habbakuk and some others. Job lost everything but because he held his faith in God and was strong, he was rewarded. The problem is, we think our short little 80 +- life here on earth is eternity, where we're supposed to get all we want while we're still alive on earth without regard for forever. So we suffer some "great" loss here and give up on infinity?

Originally posted by spamandham
It isn't that faith makes loss better, the point is that it makes loss worse!

So people who never had faith are better off than those who have it and lost it? Or those who still hold it? Maybe an example will help, I don't understand what you mean here.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
Christians grieve for their loss, not the person who died.

Sorry, but my BS meter just went off the scale.

Then since I can't use the names of others, I'll just represent myself with this statement. That is how I feel.

Originally posted by spamandham
Suppose someone you really loved had a special skill of some kind, and was needed in a far away land for some noble reason. When they left, you knew you would not get to see them again, or hear from them again for say, the next 50 years, but after that you would be with them forever. You could still write to them and know they would get your messages, but because the land is so far away and so backwards, there was no way they could contact you back or return for a visit, and there's no way for you to visit them either.

You would be sad. You would grieve. And from time to time you would miss them and write them a letter reminding them you still care and can't wait to see them. That's what death should be like for a true believer.

But it isn't. Believers lose it and go nuts just like everyone else, because their faith is called into question at times of great suffering.

For a lot of us, everything is called into question during great suffering. That's why it's called "great suffering". By using faith, you can get through it. By abandoning faith or not having it, you get depression, worry, fear, angst, frustration, anger, etc. which are all things that will not get you through it.

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm sorry to hear about your period of depression, and I certainly wouldn't want you to relapse.

Not gonna happen. I was depressed because I did not have the knowledge. Now I do so I cannot erase that. I appreciate your concern though, most people tend not to care for a believer since, they're already taken care of, right? Believers are people too.

Originally posted by spamandham
Call it faith if you want, but I know that if I jump off a springboard I will fall back to earth due to gravity. I don't need any faith in gravity to conclude that, because I have sufficient evidence of it already. I really don't see how there's any room for faith if you already have proof, unless your proof is not as convincing as you've alluded.

I have proof that chairs support people. I have faith that it will support me next time I sit down. I don't have proof until I act on my faith. That's the best analogy I can use without detailing pages of specifics.

I'm not here to prove my experience to anyone, just help others find their own proofs. I cannot make anyone believe anything, nor would I want to.

Originally posted by spamandham
IMHO, you should not abandon your faith, but can you see why it doesn't make for a convincing argument to someone else?

I'm not here to argue and I know that my words alone will not convince anyone. I did come here to lead a mass of people, I came to serve as a guide for any who are willing to have me along.

Originally posted by spamandham
Oh yes. I begged and pleaded to god to give me the one thing the Bible claims he absolutely will give to all who ask - I prayed for faith. But I didn't receive it. I made the mistake a lot of ex-christians made. After he failed to deliver on his promise, I went searching for proof by studying the Bible intensely, and reading every book in support of my desired beliefs I could find.

Failed to deliver? When did He say you'd receive the package? How much time did you give Him? Did you trust in Him to give you what you needed? The phrase here that sticks out as a problem is "reading every book in support of my desired belief" because it's not about you and your desired belief. The Bible isn't a pillow to make a person sleep better at night. It's instruction on how you do work for Him and in that you receive gifts according to His grace. Sounds like having a significant other and leaving because s/he didn't give you what you want. I don't see how that's the right approach for any relationship.

Originally posted by spamandham
The thing is, the more I read and learned, the more I began to notice the obvious contradictions and errors, and the totally unconvincing nature of the nonexistent evidence. You simply can't achieve faith through evidence. It's a shame people like Kent Hovind haven't figured that out.

If there is a personal god of some kind, it's 100% up to him who believes and who doesn't. Thus far, I'm apparently on the naughty list.

Hehe, I'm sure I get on the 'naughty list' a few times myself but He forgives those who are truly sorry, wish to change their ways, and trust in Him. As He said, nothing is impossible with Him.

If anything sounds redundant or out of place, it's probably because I took an hour to write the first response, then somehow it all got erased by a 'back-paging' before I could hit post. I even tried to be slick and copy all of it before the page changed, but only got part of a line. In doing it again, I realized in one part, it was better said this time around.

I'm interested in hearing specifics on the incident that caused you to lose faith. Even more about the pre, during, and post Christian years.

[edit on 15-6-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by AnarchistSuperstar
Nature and reality are congruent words, nature is reality, reality is nature. All that exists is real, and all that is real exists.
...
Wake up people, Gods dont exist!

I possibly agree.
Reason. My favorite writer have described this in the following lines, wich also deal with false faith.

The first law of reason is that what exists, exists, what is, is, and from this irreducible, bedrock principle, all knowledge is built. That is the fundation from wich life is embraced.
Thinking is a choise, wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discover them.
Reason is our only way of grasping reality, it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see.
Misery, iniguity and utter destruction lurk in the shadows outside its full light (the light of reason), where half-truths snare the faitful disciples, the deeply feeling belivers, the selfless followers.
Faith and feelings are the warm marrow of evil. Unlike reason, faith and feelings provide no boundary to limit any delusion, any whim. They are a virulent poison, giving the numbing illusion of moral sanction to every depravity ever hatched.
Faith and feelings are the darkness to reason's light.
Reason is the very substance of truth itself.
The glory that is life is wholly embraced through reason, through this rule.
In rejecting reason, one embraces death.


The rule mentioned above is this;
The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason.

This is my weapon against faith-based religions and politics.

The first 3 rules is warnings; don't fall for lies, don't let your good intentions do harm, don't fall for feelings.
It does not mean you should not feel. Only that you should not let passion and other feelings guide what you do.
The rest of the rules is;

1. People can be made to belive any lie,
.. either because they want to belive it's true,
.. or because they are afraid it's true.

2. The greatest harm can result from the best intentions.

3. Passion Rules Reason.

4. In forgiveness you grant, and more so in the forgiveness you receive.

5. Mind what people do,
.. not only what they say,
.. for deeds will betray a lie.

6. The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason.

7. Life is the future, not the past.

8. Deserve victory.

I often find rule 5 useful against politicans. We hear what they say. Then observe what they do.

Originally posted by suremapper
When you die you will meet God
He will ask you "Do you believe in me"
You will say proudly "No I am an atheist"
Then God will say "You reject me so I will reject you"
You will cease to exist

Today we know some things about the Afterlife.

Yes, afterlife is part of our existence and had nothing to do with Jesus. Wich means people at all times have had it. Also it means all people will come there no matter what their religion is and even if they reject religion. We have two sourches for knowledge of the afterlife; those that die and are rewieved, and some who use some special meditation techniques. By those informations it seems the afterlife is like this;
Those who die somehow creates the place they want to be in. The afterlife seems to be made by needs and feelings. There are churches and there are 'god's breath' for religious people. There are schools and academies for the learned minds, there are those who create their home and family in life and continue living their afterlife as if they still lived. It's all an illusion. One can seemingly create what one need or want or belive. So a christian may apear at a church he wish (or need) to be there where he and others of like mind is, and as a confirmation of their belive they might look at people in hell, suffering. Then they are all happy; they see the unhappy down there, proving they lived their lives right. But that hell and the suffering people is an illusion, aparently created by the afterliving people needing the illusion. Some of those who have died and been ressurected have told of them apearing in a dark place with screams of suffering below. Illusion.
Obviously the afterlife is a strange place with strange rules where what one need, want, wish or something like that, apear and it seems real for the afterlivers. The only real in afterlife is the people themselves.
The afterlife is a life and it has a lifespan. We here live up to 120 years. The afterlivers seems to live (or exist) up to 2000 years, perhaps a bit longer. But most seems to be there no longer than 1000 years. After that some are reborn while others just disapear, possibly into a highter reality. Noone have ever come back from that place, wherever or however it is.
All this is of course based on what people have told of their experiences. We can maybe never have scientific proof of how the afterlife is or wheter it is only a fantasy in our heads. So the only sure thing about the afterlife is that we hope it exists. I guess this is the only true belive worth having.

Originally posted by saint4God
I believe God gives us the power to choose to accept Him or not.

This makes no sense at all. You can not make a conscious choice to accept something unless you first believe it's a real option. I can't choose to accept invisible unicorns, because the idea is rediculous, not because I'm a sinner who rejects the will of the almightly invisible pink unicorn. The same is true of god. To reject god, requires that you first believe he exists. To accept him requires that you first believe he exists. Belief preceeds allegience.

Originally posted by saint4God
If everyone is already selected since birth, then what's the point of having me and others do this?

There is no point to it. The Bible tells you to proselytize, yet it also tells you that the names of the the chosen were written in the book of life even before the creation. The only conclusion is that proselytizing is an act that demonstrates and furthers obedience, rather than an act that accomplishes anything, sort of like when guys in boot camp are ordered to dig holes and then fill them back in.

Originally posted by saint4God
Why did he send His Son to teach us? Why did His Son die to give us the ability to accept Him? The day I planned suicide, would He have stopped me had I decided to go through with it?

These are dilemmas for you, not me. From my perspective, this is all just mythology, so it doesn't have to make any sense.

Originally posted by saint4God
My proposition is not to believe in me, but to go straight to the source.

That didn't work. I eventually gave up asking. If there is a personal god who wants a relationship with me, he's going to have to hold up his end of the deal. He's the omni-this-and-that one, not me. He has the ability to make me believe. I don't. I can't force myself to believe something thats logically inconsistent and that I find ludicrous at face value.

From my perspective, the story of god(s) is nothing more than ancient man trying to make sense out of the world around him. Some clever fellows long ago figured out that they could control an entire population by pandering to this inclination, and set up a self purpetuating belief system.

Originally posted by saint4God
There are some, believe it or not, who will receive proof and still deny.

I find that extremely difficult to believe. Christians wash their hands of the obvious injustice god has planned for nonbelievers by convincing themselves that these nonbelievers are simply beligerantly refusing to accept the obvious evidence "because they love sin". Never mind that this is in total contrast to the idea of faith in the first place, and never mind that the concept of sin makes no sense unless you're already a believer.

The reality is, nonbelievers are no more pathological than believers. Given proof, only a tiny fraction would deny. The problem is that the arguments believers use are crappy, filled with logical fallacies, and rest entirely on anonymous ancient hearsay - the equivalent of urban legends from long ago.

Originally posted by saint4God
Why would God give us individuality, self-worth, and free will just to take it away again?

That's another dilemma your faith creates. You must somehow harmonize how there can be free will in heaven, and yet also be no sin, even though your theology claims that Satan sinned while in heaven. My perspective does not suffer from this problem.

Originally posted by saint4God
How do you know?

I can't know, but neither can you. What I can know, is that I have no memory of my existence prior to about age 2. I can also know that my consciousness is not perpetual even while I'm alive. If my consciousness is distinct from my brain, then where does it go while I'm sleeping? Or if I'm paralyzed for surgery? If you wish to claim things are not as they seem, it's up to you to explain it.

I can also know that people who suffer brain injury do not have the same consciousness as the rest of us. How can I know? Not only do they obviously perceive things in a different and impaired way, but some of them eventually recover and tell us what it was like!

All indications are that the brain is the seat of consciousness. The evidence of that is overwhelming. Based on that, when the brain ceases to operate, consciousness is no more. Yet you would dismiss the plain and obvious in preference of a position that has no credibility simply because it's the result you want. You have to resort to an argument that amounts to "it's magic" to explain how consciouness and the brain are somehow distinct.

Originally posted by saint4God
If it breaks down then it's broken/lost faith.

Any doubt whatsoever is proof that you don't really have faith. There can be degrees of belief, since belief is really just an assessment of probabilities, but there can not be degrees of faith. Why not? Because faith is not based on evidence, it's based on hope. It is that desire, regardless of degree of intensity, that is the basis of faith.

Originally posted by saint4God
The problem is, we think our short little 80 +- life here on earth is eternity, where we're supposed to get all we want while we're still alive on earth without regard for forever. So we suffer some "great" loss here and give up on infinity?

On the other hand, what if this 80 +- years really is all you have? Wouldn't it be a tradgedy to allow your life to be run by ignorant ancient goat herders if that's the case? There is amazing freedom that accompanies the shedding of faith, if you can come to grips with mortality.

Originally posted by saint4God
So people who never had faith are better off than those who have it and lost it? Or those who still hold it? Maybe an example will help, I don't understand what you mean here.

I already explained it a couple of times. It doesn't seem that complicated. You will have an emotional cost caused by faith piled on top of your grief when a loved one dies. At that moment, you will have great doubts and fears will flow through you that you've been suppressing with faith. This will be piled on top of your grief at the very moment you thought faith would bring comfort.

I don't put much stock in a single person's testimony, but for what it's worth I'll share mine. I have lost loved ones as a believer and as a nonbeliever, and it's much less painfull as a nonbeliever. Granted, I have gone through the process of coming to grips with mortality, and most nonbelievers probably haven't, but knowing that my pain is temporary brings relief. There is a change of perspective that follows the realization that death is final. I also don't feel any sense of abandonment by god, nor anger at god, nor do I worry that my loved one might be in hell instead of heaven.

Have you ever been to a funeral where they didn't say something to the effect of "he's in a much better place now"? Yet, supposedly the vast majority are going to hell. Where are all the funerals where they say, "Well sorry to tell you this, but he's probably in hell." No-one does that, because the purpose of faith is a security blanket not reality.

Originally posted by saint4God
By abandoning faith or not having it, you get depression, worry, fear, angst, frustration, anger, etc. which are all things that will not get you through it.

Just as you said you know first hand that faith is a comfort, I know first hand that it is not. I also know first hand that lack of it does not bring about this list. So, faith is great for you and it's a burdon for me. Do you suppose it's coincidence that you have it and I don't?

Originally posted by saint4God
I have proof that chairs support people. I have faith that it will support me next time I sit down. I don't have proof until I act on my faith. That's the best analogy I can use without detailing pages of specifics.

That isn't usually what people mean when they talk about faith. Faith is belief without compelling evidence, it is not simply belief in general.

I believe that when I sit down on a chair, it will most likely support me, but I have an observational basis for that belief, and if I stop to think about it, I know there is a chance the chair will fail as I sit on it.

A better analogy for faith would be someone who walks up to a decrepit looking bridge, but since they hope the bridge will support them, they believe that it will.

Originally posted by saint4God
Failed to deliver? When did He say you'd receive the package? How much time did you give Him?

He can deliver anytime he wants, I did my part simply by asking. He has not yet delivered, so I don't yet believe. If he fulfills his purported promise, how could I then refuse to believe? It's all pretty silly. I can not deny that which I have proof of even if I don't like it. Nor can I accept that which makes no sense, just because I do like it.

I can't force myself to reject gravity any more than I can force myself to believe Paris Hilton wants me.

Originally posted by saint4God
Sounds like having a significant other and leaving because s/he didn't give you what you want. I don't see how that's the right approach for any relationship.

It isn't a relationship when all the effort is expended by a single party. That's stalking. But you missed the first part apparently about praying for faith. You got the proof you needed. I haven't. All the discussions in the world won't change that.

Belief is not within my power if no proof is presented, nor is it within my power to reject belief should proof be presented.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm interested in hearing specifics on the incident that caused you to lose faith. Even more about the pre, during, and post Christian years.

Basically, I really started studying the Bible - the whole thing not just the nice parts. Studying the Bible in depth led to my doubts. I attempted to bolster my belief by proselytizing (though I didn't realize that's what I was doing until after the fact). Proselytizing is a double edged sword. When you tell others 'the good news', they don't feel any obligation to hold back on 'the debunk news'. You will start to be exposed to competing arguments, especially if you start trying to prove Biblical claims rather than just sticking with "have faith and you'll live forever".

But once you start to have serious doubts, you will not merely hear those arguments, you will investigate them to see if they have merit.

They do.

Originally posted by Ghaele
So the only sure thing about the afterlife is that we hope it exists. I guess this is the only true belive worth having.

Why is it worth having? It seems to conflict with your previous post in support of reason. There are natural explanations for near death experiences, NDE (which is what I assume you're referring to). Such experiences can even be induced.

I thought up an experiment which I've posed to several proponents of NDE, but no-one seems interested in carrying it out. All you would have to do is set up symbols at random that face up (above where anyone can see them) in emergency rooms. Then poll people after the fact to see if they had a NDE. If they did, ask them what the symbol was. Invariably, in NDEs people are looking down on themsleves from the top of the room at some point during the experiment. If they are really up there, they would be able to see the symbol.

I can't see how this experiment would be the least bit unethical, but it has the potential to falsify the NDE claims.

spamandham,

I could go through point-by-point with what you said, but again, I'm not here to argue. What I hear between the words is that you're hurt by what you see as a promise unfulfilled. Until that's let go, without putting undue blame on God (whom you say does not exist), I don't see a way of moving forward. I'll help however I can if you want, just let me know.

May love, faith, and hope be with you always,
God bless.

[edit on 15-6-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
What I hear between the words is that you're hurt by what you see as a promise unfulfilled.

Not exactly. You see, to feel hurt by the failure of the promise to materialze, I would first have to believe the promise was real. But to realize that it was real would first require that I already believe. It's all circular. If you already believe, then you don't need the promise. If you don't believe, then you also don't believe the promise is real. You might hope that it is, but you don't believe that it is. However, asking for faith still fulfills your end of the deal even if you don't believe anyone other than yourself is listening.

But in my case, I'm long past all that. If the promise is real, god has not yet fulfilled it. That makes me a free man until then. Like I said before, it's truly liberating. It's changed my entire outlook on life - for the better IMHO - and forced me to mature emotionally.

Originally posted by spamandham
However, asking for faith still fulfills your end of the deal even if you don't believe anyone other than yourself is listening.

...

It's changed my entire outlook on life - for the better IMHO - and forced me to mature emotionally.

After an hour of searching, I can’t seem to find where in the bible where it says that faith can be granted through prayer. Regardless, one does not need to have neither faith nor belief for prayers to be answered.

Like you, I had received “the answer of a non-existent God” years ago. When I “found” God, I didn’t believe in Him. I didn’t want to believe in Him. I said a prayer with no expectation that it would be answered. But it was answered. That answer was like a slap in the face, and it left me dazed and confused.

The day before, I would have placed any amount of money that any prayer would not have been answered, without a logical explanation that excluded God. The day after, and quite sometime after that, I was looking for logical explanations that excluded the existance of God. It was not until after I allowed for the existance of God, that things began to make sense.


There is a funny thing about prayers. God provides what we need not necessarily what we want. You learned this lesson and you drew your own conclusions as to its meaning. You came to believe that God’s lack of visible action was proof of his non-existence. Sometimes seeing what is needed is difficult.

The only advice I can give you is to remember that lack of evidence does not automatically mean lack of existence.


Here is an inspirational story if you choose to read about the lesson of a butterfly.

Take Care.

Originally posted by spamandham
Why is it worth having? It seems to conflict with your previous post in support of reason.

Invariably, in NDEs people are looking down on themsleves from the top of the room at some point during the experiment. If they are really up there, they would be able to see the symbol. I can't see how this experiment would be the least bit unethical, but it has the potential to falsify the NDE claims.

Afterlife is in conflict with reason? Whitnesses tell of their experiences and their descriptions have been confirmed by an indepent group. So it seems to be more of a fact than a belive...

As for the test of yours; too late! People who have been near death and seen themself and the doctors working have afterwards volunteered information to the doc's what they did and said under the surgeon. This, of corse, is even better than your test.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
The only advice I can give you is to remember that lack of evidence does not automatically mean lack of existence.

Lack of evidence is evidence of absence when there is a reasonable expectation that evidence should be present. It isn't proof, but it is compelling circumstantial evidence, which is the best we can hope for.

For example, if you run an up to date virus scan on your computer, and it comes up empty, it's reasonable to conclude you don't have a virus. Is this absolute proof? No, but there's no such thing as absolute proof outside of pure mathematics (to include logic).

Now, there's a book in which an absolute promise is made that "anything you ask in my name will be granted". This promise is well understood to mean "anything congruent to the will of god". Other parts of this book say that it is god's will that we all have faith. So, asking for faith in his name, fulfills the requirements of the promise.

So, as long as the promise remains unfulfilled, it is reasonable to conclude there isn't really such a promise.

Well, regardless of all the debate, I believe God does exist. You can jump all over me and ask me to prove it but guess what.........I don't have to prove something I know and feel in my heart and soul. Not everything in this universe can be touched, smelled, tasted or seen. Sometimes it is only the heart that has that ability and not the mind.