God Doesnt Exist

Well Anarchist, considering I know a great deal more of history than you I can easily say I just don't see your arguement...

For one though, quantum conciousness? Doesn't sound like anything real.

I was talking about Quantum Mechanics but maybe you were referring to something someone else mentioned.

My point anarchist is you speak of "logic" yet you know very little of how the natural world works.

You haven't really analyzed much about logic as far as I can tell.

Just please do tell the "logic" behind a flower...or a leaf.

The logic of a sun or matter...or mass....the logic of waves, or of why water will become less dense as it solidifies.

Especially the last.

WHAT IS THE LOGIC IN WATER BECOMMING LESS DENSE AS IT SOLIDIFIES?

I urge you to stop bantering against religions, and realize you can't refute the existance of a God, only of a religion's belief.

This world is far too illogical for it not to have a purpose.

And purpose...is divine.

God cannot be proven not to exist, so in turn he must exist -Basics of Science.

By the way, when it comes to religion, your bound to find infanite argueing.

Originally posted by Anarchist...
There is no speed of time, some things are fast, others are slow, that doesnt mean time changes speed, depends on how fast anything within nature/reality travels. No, not really Bandit.

Oh and you can't say time doesn't speed up or slow down.

Hell we already proved that it does...the faster you travel the slower time passes.

Time is a dimension and is proportional to speed.

In fact, it can be argued (as I am currently working on), that speed and time are really just the same things, and only seperate themselves in our 3rd dimension.

Because without speed or "velocity" or any form of change from one place to another, there really is no passage of time...and if time = 0 then there is no distance covered.

Time may very well be the 3rd dimension's passage through the 4th and therefore since the speed of light is slowing down it is possible so is time...

again you will not beable to disprove god...ever...because Science shows that there has to be something that humans would call "god".

...again, WHO CREATED the matter, the human race and the dimensions (11?) that we speak of?

Did all of this result from chance, uncoordinated and random selection?

In the human mind there is a space, and in this space there is either a vacuum or God.

No it's not chance, design never has room for chance.

While things like the Human race are left to chance, the universe itself spawned from a single state...I love the saying.

See my new signature.

Originally posted by Maddas
This disscussion is turely like smacking your head into a concreate wall, in an attempt to bust it down.

You would think that antichristsuperstar would, in all his informed, logical opinion, would relise that logically there is no where for this argument to go, other than flaming, which I do not doubt will happen by the 3 page.

One can liken these sorts of people to the door knocking Jehova Witnesses, canvasing for more adherents.

What do you hope to prove to all of us.
Logic 101 - I think, therefore I am.

I believe that god exists, therefore he does.

Amusing it is that you'all saw the trap, but choose to take the bait. Was this because of pride, or more ignorant reasons.

This thread could off been simple to ignore. But no, out come the self-rightous. Tut-tut-tut.

How many pages will be enough?

Originally posted by AnarchistSuperstar

There is no speed of time, some things are fast, others are slow, that doesnt mean time changes speed, depends on how fast anything within nature/reality travels. No, not really Bandit.

We weren't discussing time. That's between you and billybob. We were discussing whether reality exists or not. I opened a discussion on your "reality exist" quote, not the sentence before that.

Originally posted by AnarchistSuperstar
I read about quantum consciousness, and the advice given to me by my friends (Professor of biology and a professor of physics) www.grahamkendall.net States that quantum consciousness is bunk.

Your words: having a degree doesnt mean you're always right...

That people attached the word "quantum" to their ravings to make it seem more intellectual, but that it really holds no water.

Did your professor friend say this, or you?

Need I say any more? Sure, it has some truth to it, but overall it is just peices of information which have been haphazardly thrown together to serve some personal agenda.

Once again, your professor or you? Anyway, you posted that claim here, so you must be able to back it up. If not it will just remain an unbased claim, and opinion. Which has no more value than a zealot who says "god told me to save you".

Anyways, this has been a somewhat interesting discussion thanks to some people, but others whom cant seem to grasp the concept of agreeing to disagree and yet persist to dismiss the other person through using "waffle" and "evasion" techniques to discredit their claims.

There's a Dutch saying: Wat je zegt ben je zelf"; which means: You are what you're saying.

You haven't answered this question:

If NDE's and OBE's are purely mental? Then why can people see things they couldn't have possibly seen , because they were unconscious and/or had no brainwave activity and were physically away from the object or things that they have seen?


You jumped to: Thats just... retarded.. I'm sorry I've wasted my time on you, you cant reason with the unreasonable.

And you replied with: There is no speed of time, some things are fast, others are slow, that doesnt mean time changes speed, depends on how fast anything within nature/reality travels. No, not really Bandit.


Without discussing any claims I made, or articles I posted a link to directly.

[Edited on 14-7-2003 by TheBandit795]

Although the original argument looks good on pen and paper in the scientific community, the existance of god and the like is a matter of faith which can not be measured or proven by any equation or theory.

It's still doesn't look good, because it's based on Newtonian physics. Which is pretty outdated and doesn't apply at all to such things as quantum physics.

You can find a simple explanation of that here and the following pages

[Edited on 14-7-2003 by TheBandit795]

anarchistsuperstar.
big handle.
all deities have not been disproven.
it is impossible to disprove something which is outside of your perception.
constant repetition does not make an argument stronger.
god is not real. there, i just proved it. it is written by me, therefore it is true.
this is not an argument.
science cannot disprove god, because there is no experiment, or empirical data which disproves a deity. once again, repetition of your atheist dogma doesn't make it so.
where are these studies, papers and experiments that prove the non-existance of god?

and as posted above, time is relative to velocity and space. for a guy who knows ALL science(may i shake your hand, you are clearly the most brilliant informed person on earth), therefore the speed of time is dependent on your point of view, or "relativity". all things are only what you percieve. i live inside a pink unicorn. you cannot disprove this.
you are in self contradiction, you quote "science", as the ultimate authority of truth, yet, state that you put no merit on school degrees.
there is a difference between invisible, and real(sigh). kirlian photography cleary shows the human energy field(or "aura"), yet few people are able to see it with there eyes. people who do see it, can distinguish different colours. the colours change with the level of mental and emotional activity in the subject.
you have much to learn about "proof".
i suggest you keep hanging around this website.

Are you referring to what essentially are the works of Dr. Stuart Hammerhoff and Sir Roger Penrose??

For the record Dr. Jack Sarfatti is well know to the Internet a simple search does produce of means of communicating and discussing.


For the record AS any conclusion with respect to what happens after death is best made by those who are actually dead.


Main Entry: de�lu�sion
Pronunciation: di-'l�-zh&n, dE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin delusion-, delusio, from deludere
Date: 15th century
1 a : the act of deluding : the state of being deluded b : an abnormal mental state characterized by the occurrence of psychotic delusions
2 a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self
- de�lu�sion�al /-'l�zh-n&l, -'l�-zh&-n&l/ adjective
- de�lu�sion�ary /-zh&-"ner-E/ adjective

Pronunciation Key

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My point being to assume one knows beyond any shadow of doubt what happens after death is actually what is delusional.

Faith is a belief whose basis is often personal, causative factors abound but to be very specific one cannot in any way term the behavior as psychotic. Rather than include that definition or for that matter turn this response into a lecture my advise is that you review the terms you are applying.

Fixx yes I do



[Edited on 15-7-2003 by Toltec]

Bismillah

look all around u u can see the signs of god.
pick up a koran and read some.

God allows evil because His choise is to give priority to freedom.

He gives priority to freedom so that we can be independent from Him.

This implies that creation exsist.

With no free will there would be no creation.

So..... anarchistSuperstar, you better thank God - our Father, that evil exists...

First u must ask the question what is God?
The word is just a symbol for something we can't completely grasp so we gave the unreachable a name.
God is not a being so it is wrong to personify God(God doesn't have eyes, hands, or breath) Yet religions religions constantly give God human like characteristics(Personification).
God is like an equation. The Equation for how every thing in the entire universe, multiverse, whatever operates and maintains. Just like how Pi cant be fully calculated so we give it a symbol so is God.

Equation for Everything*=X

X=God

*not refering to the work of Stephan Hawking

You have an opinion that other people who worship different dieties worship your deity in disguise, this is simply not true and its your opinion, seeing as how there are people who worship deities totally unlike yours. However, if you want to believe that, thats fine. So how do you know this deity exist, and how do you know "he" loves me?

What you're talking about is your delusions in some fatherfigure who cares about you.

Can't you see I feel your pain?
I've got Jesus running through my veins
In this hopeless life that's turned on you
Give yourself to me, I'll help you through
I feed off your unanswered fear
When visions of life's end appear
Hand over your will and then you'll see
Now get on your knees and worship me
In this world when at it's best
Of never ending hate and death
Abandon all and trust in me
Escaping from reality
My world it has no space or time
The crippled walk and the sick feel fine
Hand over your will and then you'll see
Now get on your knees and worship me
Beyond this wall of life unknown
I'll lead you where you need to go
Void of worry, stress and pain
Left with nothing but your name
We've washed your brain and cleansed your soul
Till' nothing's all you need to know
Hand over your will and then you'll see
Now get on your knees and worship me

Uhm no, someone was talking about quantum consciousness which is bogus. Quantum Mechanics is valid, and yes I know how the natural world works. You want to know about flowers? I can give you the email address of a biology professor and botanist.

Okay, you ask me questions as if.. I dont know.. thats somehow relevent? Thats strange. Anyways, everything is logical, no inconsistencies exist within nature.

The purpose is not divine, there is no purpose. Deities have been refuted already.

Deities have never been proven to be existant so they are non-existant by default, besides they have been disproven anyways..

The slower time passes? No, the faster you're going. Time is a human construct. The speed of light isnt slowing, the universe is expanding.

You can call a rock "god," that doesnt mean the rock has the characteristics attributed to the definition of "god," however none of those characteristics are logically possible therefore deities arent.

Tyriffic, Who created each beautiful and precious and unique snowflake? No one, nature did. No one created everything, who do you expect, some guy named Bob living down the street?

Random? No. Chaotic to be more precise.

Space in the mind, with a vacuum or god.. huh?
nevermind.

What trap are you talking about, this is a public discussion forum and we're having a discussion, if you think that something is a trap then dont participate in it, it is public.

Reality exists, if reality didnt exist, nothing would exist, things exist, therefore reality exists. ...Any questions? There is a chance that we might perceive it incorrectly, but theres lots to suggest that we perceive it perfectly, if someone sees the color purple, and someone else sees the color purple, some people who watched the movie matrix too long and have constructed their own little world which to escape to think that the colors those two see are different, you know... Its very likely that we actually see the same colors. You can perform a test, show people two colors, and then hold a bunch of cards with each color there is in front of them, ask them to point to what they just saw, they will both point to purple.

I paraphrased him, I dont take anyone who disregaurds numerals and Pi seriously, especially by attaching quantum to some formula to make it sound more impressive. People have hijacked the word.

Theres an English saying: You are who you are
Please demonstrate objective tests which have conclusively proven people have seen things they couldnt have possible seen, (if they seen them, how couldnt they have possible seen them?) because they were unconscious and/or had no brainwave activity and were physically away from the object or things that they have seen?

As I have said, NDE and OBE's exist, and they have been attributed to specific stimulation of the brain. I can get you the url if you want it.

You're right, faith proves all claims equally.

Outside my perception? Invisible pink unicorns are outside my perception and they have been disproven.

Your meak attempts to dismiss me are futile, sorry, you shouldnt hvae wasted your effort.

There is no evidence to support any deities therefore deities become non-existant by default until they are proven, which they havent been, they have been disproven.

Dogma is a religious doctrine, I'm not religious, my karma ran over your dogma, 'kay?

These papers and experiments are floating around everywhere if you look for them. I never claimed to know all there is to know, all things are what you perceive, that means what you perceive are things that are. Yes, I can disprove it. If its pink it cannot be invisible, it doesnt exist. Inconsistent means non-existant.

How is disregaurd for degrees disregaurd for knowledge? I could learn more from a college in a library for free. No need for a paper degree.

Toltec, nonsense. We know about death because people die. I'm using a different dictionary than you.

There is no invalidating evidence to suggest I'm delusional for professing the fact that cognitive function ends when you die, because you are in fact dead.

I've read the bible, tonach, qu'ran, bhaga-vagita, torah, they are all books written by man which are fallible.

Mohammed was a pedophile.

God allows evil because his choice is to give priority to freedom.

Prove "God' exists, prove there is an objective right/wrong, and then prove this deity cares about freedom. Prove that he wants us to have the option to be free from him, prove he's a him while you're at it, how does that imply creationism? Creationism is psuedo-science, or as I like to call it unintelligent design.

Thank "god" for evil, eh? "Thank you God, for my dead child stabbed repreatedly by a priest.." Sorry, Im never going to say something like that.

Baal, how do you know this, why do people say differently than you!? *rips hair out*

www.lenaadams.com...

3. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)

(1) I define God to be X.
(2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

haha

30. ARGUMENT FROM FALLIBILITY

(1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed.
(2) Therefore, there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
(3) I propose that God exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

*rolls eyes*

"hm no, someone was talking about quantum consciousness which is bogus."

You say it's bogus because your professor friend says it's bogus. Word of mouth... No value. You yourself said that if you have a degree it doesn't mean your right.
Can you prove that it's just bits & pieces put together to support some personal agenda??

Back up your claims son.


Quantum Mechanics is valid, and yes I know how the natural world works.

Are you sure???

Thats strange. Anyways, everything is logical, no inconsistencies exist within nature.


Well, you've just contradicted yourself here, bacause quantum physics has been found to be highly illogical till now.
Scientist still can't explain why an subatomic particle can appear (seemingly out of nothing) when there's an observer and why two sub a particles change spin at the same time, while moving away from each other at the speed of light.
But, maybe you're right, it might end up being logical some time, or maybe not...


You can perform a test, show people two colors, and then hold a bunch of cards with each color there is in front of them, ask them to point to what they just saw, they will both point to purple.


Put a group of people in front of a tree and see how many will describe the same thing. Or better yet, let multiple witnesses of a car accident explain to you what happened. Seldom will the stories be close to identical. These test won't be objective, just as the example you gave won't be objective either... Scientist are even speculating if objective tests are possible.


I paraphrased him, I dont take anyone who disregaurds numerals and Pi seriously, especially by attaching quantum to some formula to make it sound more impressive. People have hijacked the word.

All these people who made papers on the subject (which have been published in scientific journals) have hijacked the word then...

www.u.arizona.edu...

Theres an English saying: You are who you are
Please demonstrate objective tests which have conclusively proven people have seen things they couldnt have possible seen, (if they seen them, how couldnt they have possible seen them?) because they were unconscious and/or had no brainwave activity and were physically away from the object or things that they have seen?

That is not so easy, because you can't predict when such things will occur, because not all people who's brainwave activity seize, have NDE's. You can see that in this paper

www.iands.org...

(The journal)
www.thelancet.com...

They can investigate the claim, after it has already happened. There is no way to predict it, as I have already said. Once again this page:

Real events are witnessed far away from their body


As I have said, NDE and OBE's exist, and they have been attributed to specific stimulation of the brain. I can get you the url if you want it.

Nothing new, I know that. BUt why are people able to see and hear things that they shouldn't be able to experience physically because they were brain dead and/or unconscious. Like the woman who saw the red shoe on the roof of the hospital while she was clinically dead.

Dogma is a religious doctrine, I'm not religious, my karma ran over your dogma, 'kay?

Ever heard of scientific dogma???


There is no invalidating evidence to suggest I'm delusional for professing the fact that cognitive function ends when you die, because you are in fact dead.

Oh really??? Why don't you take a look at this book. Maybe you would see that there could by a little chance that there is evidence of such things.

A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife
Irrefutable Objective Evidence

(zip file or .doc file 3.39mb)

Anyway, this is also a very good page for you to see...


Debunking Common Skeptical Arguments Against Paranormal and Psychic Phenomena


[Edited on 15-7-2003 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by Maddas

Originally posted by Maddas
This disscussion is turely like smacking your head into a concreate wall, in an attempt to bust it down.

You would think that antichristsuperstar would, in all his informed, logical opinion, would relise that logically there is no where for this argument to go, other than flaming, which I do not doubt will happen by the 3 page.

One can liken these sorts of people to the door knocking Jehova Witnesses, canvasing for more adherents.

What do you hope to prove to all of us.
Logic 101 - I think, therefore I am.

I believe that god exists, therefore he does.

Amusing it is that you'all saw the trap, but choose to take the bait. Was this because of pride, or more ignorant reasons.

This thread could off been simple to ignore. But no, out come the self-rightous. Tut-tut-tut.

How many pages will be enough?

Uh, the name of the thread concerns God's existence....hello.

I would call all the God haters self-righteous in their zeal to hate and deny believers faith. Hmmmm...the pages will continue forever I'm sorry to say for you sir.

If anyone's ever read Relativity that pretty much proves there's a God, the sheer exactitude and order to the universe, and our inability to understand through experience the higher dimensions.

Amazing.

Einstein also believe very much in God.