It just doesn't happen

originally posted by: Xtrozero


Is it magic because within our limited understanding we think it is magic? As I said, with the rising of the sun everyday is that magic, or a God? Seems as we learn more and more...less and less Gods are needed

Personally, the more I learn, the more I re-evaluate what God is. When I was an atheist for a large portion of my life I perceived God as unnecessary because science was beginning to calculate many things in this world. How could I have missed the fact that these forces that keep everything in equilibrium were essentially a sort of code or programming that allows life to persist?? These laws are precise, and the life they sustain is intelligent. To suppose these ordered systems came to be through random chance or an accident is no longer a possibility in my mind.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Xtrozero


Is it magic because within our limited understanding we think it is magic? As I said, with the rising of the sun everyday is that magic, or a God? Seems as we learn more and more...less and less Gods are needed

Personally, the more I learn, the more I re-evaluate what God is. When I was an atheist for a large portion of my life I perceived God as unnecessary because science was beginning to calculate many things in this world. How could I have missed the fact that these forces that keep everything in equilibrium were essentially a sort of code or programming that allows life to persist?? These laws are precise, and the life they sustain is intelligent. To suppose these ordered systems came to be through random chance or an accident is no longer a possibility in my mind.

More lies and misrepresentations. Fraud, deceit never seems to end with you.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Is it magic because within our limited understanding we think it is magic? As I said, with the rising of the sun everyday is that magic, or a God? Seems as we learn more and more...less and less Gods are needed until we get to the point of talking about what is outside of our universe and we fall back to God once again. Can you see a pattern here?

But don't you see you're the one who's assuming it's magic if it has
to do with God. That's not me. I'm using the magic show and magic as
a metaphor. If we someday find out the key to the whole universe
is vibration. Then it seems to me that sound could very easily be the
mechanism that caused the right vibration to form matter. It's not
a big leap from there to what it says basically in Genesis. God spoke
and it was so. I mean that is the definition of the word God.

Also I can't help thinking that atheism just jumps on the band wagon
of science. And writes a supreme being off just a little to fast. But I
don't think I need to say anything about where that always gets
people. Why wouldn't God have used certain sounds that formed
everything with the right vibration? Certain words. Start think'n
about that and then you realize why witches often use a chant. Or
say an incantation to bring power to a spell. The vibration of their
voice on the right words?

Words have power right? Then you start to see why so many
words in our language seem to feel like the word that describes
what were talking about. If you've ever pondered that? Like the
word cold or winter those words sound exactly like what there
used for. Summer not all words but many. People can definitely
shatter a wine glass with their voice. So we don't have to prove
that a voice can effect matter.

All that to say what God is described as doing in the Bible. Doesn't
have to be magic anymore than the sun coming up in the east.
But you're the one who refuses to research the trick to know
how it was done? Take God at of the equation and pretty soon
you have an avalanche of other things you have to eliminate from
existence. Had a member tell me once. Okay than love doesn't
exist either.

Oh anything but God!

What is so scary about God? I think it's silly. So I think the evidence is
everywhere and a lot of people are to smart for their own damn good.
To say there is no evidence rates no more than an opinion. And a poor
one at that.

a reply to: Phantom423

More lies and misrepresentations. Fraud, deceit never seems to end with you.

Is this like your immature little stand bye when you have no argument?

Just drop everything and lash out like a child coming down off a sugar
high? It's really funny and not cool but kind of awesome to watch.

originally posted by: Phantom423

More lies and misrepresentations. Fraud, deceit never seems to end with you.

You've cried wolf so many times I think you're just on autopilot now. This is your fail-safe when youre losing a cordial debate.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Hawthorn fly (is an example of evolution)

Hawthorn flies "evolving" into an apple fly is one of your example of evolution^? It's the same exact fly. They didn't even change it's species name. Just because it eats something different doesn't mean it evolved. The rest of your examples are also an organism staying as the same organism:

Tennessee cave salamanders

They're still salamanders...

Greenish Warbler

Warblers becoming warblers. That's not evolution.

Larus gulls

They're still gulls.

Drosophila

Which remained Drosophila (fruit fly)

Finches

Which remained finches.


There are no examples of organisms evolving into another distinctly different organisms. Fruit flies remain fruit flies, gulls remain gulls, salamanders remain salamanders. Unless you can find an actual example of a population of organisms changing into something else, then you cannot attribute the diversity of species to evolutionary theory. Seriously man, it's one of the biggest lie we have been told growing up and there's no substantial evidence to show it is remotely possible.

You obviously still don't understand how evolution works.

Nineteenth-century English social scientist Herbert Spencer made this prescient observation: "Those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution, as not adequately supported by facts, seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all." Well over a century later nothing has changed. When I debate creationists, they present not one fact in favor of creation and instead demand "just one transitional fossil" that proves evolution. When I do offer evidence (for example, Ambulocetus natans, a transitional fossil between ancient land mammals and modern whales), they respond that there are now two gaps in the fossil record.

This is a clever debate retort, but it reveals a profound error that I call the Fossil Fallacy: the belief that a "single fossil"--one bit of data--constitutes proof of a multifarious process or historical sequence. In fact, proof is derived through a convergence of evidence from numerous lines of inquiry--multiple, independent inductions, all of which point to an unmistakable conclusion.

We know evolution happened not because of transitional fossils such as A. natans but because of the convergence of evidence from such diverse fields as geology, paleontology, biogeography, comparative anatomy and physiology, molecular biology, genetics, and many more. No single discovery from any of these fields denotes proof of evolution, but together they reveal that life evolved in a certain sequence by a particular process.

www.scientificamerican.com...

Bumping because relevance. Disproving evolution (even if you could) is not evidence of creationism. It's simply an attempt to discredit the competition so you don't have to improve your own work. Very lazy and frankly dishonest. So far, there's no viable theory of creationism and the only document available (the testament) is not only a thousand years out of date but fails to account for any of the data mentioned in the article linked above. Its literally propaganda written for the 8th century before the church started losing the battle against freedom of information. And now you resent that freedom, not because of what you believe but because you have doubts. You can admit it.

originally posted by: cooperton

...
Personally, the more I learn, the more I re-evaluate what God is...

And that first sentence is exactly the problem. In a way science, maths, coding... brings you a lot closer to God than just reading any ancient text, doesn't it?
One could say that every religion that gets in the way of people doubting, thinking, going through the "evidences" (I come back to that) is actively hindering humanity on its pursuit to understand & for the first time coming up with a definition of God that isn't complete hogwash.

Is the Big Bang Inflation Theory bs? Yes sure it absolutely is, every half way sane person can tell that, when you look at lambda and the absurd notion that there's a total of 95% "dark stuff" you need to believe to be remotely in a position to swallow it.

On the other hand it's equally absurde to believe that the entire universe could be anthropic. We are microbes in the face of a dynamic gigantic body we have to assume is endless/infinite that's how #ing small and insignificant we are.

The logical conclusion can only be that the universe as a system "has a plan" and it's entirely possible we die out and be gone and will never learn that we were only one minor step in the big plan of the universe becoming God.
Because this universe is not made for us, hell even this planet is not made for us.
And the fine-tuned-ness and all of that what we think are "universal laws" are absolutely changeable. They haven't always been the same, they will not always be the same.

So the only service to God, imho is gathering information, knowledge, enable computers to store data more effectively and become energy independent because we're a fairly inefficent outdated model in a universe where the only thing that matters is information.
While the true "dark matter & energy" are the 95% ignorant dumb #s who think God would actually give a #.

And the "evidence" in a nice twist of events can never be purely mathmatical. Because everything can be proven in a function or equation and you fiddle the numbers a bit adjust to get to the result you want, invent #ing lambda and whatnot and that's just not evidence of anything.

The truth, the reality happens in the brain, the great flawed perception device we were given and only if we could get to a point where healthy informed smart people live free peaceful lives and can think # true will we ever make progress in both religion and science, as they're both the #ing same thing and both get used so very wrong always just for control and never for liberation.

And I'm sure whatever or whoever God may be he would sign that

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Phantom423

More lies and misrepresentations. Fraud, deceit never seems to end with you.

You've cried wolf so many times I think you're just on autopilot now. This is your fail-safe when youre losing a cordial debate.

You lost a long time ago when you joined that evil cult.

a reply to: Peeple

That was a very interesting summation of how you see God and our relation to it, but I do have question. What is the purpose of information? Why would information be critical as part of the non biological evolution process?

a reply to: TzarChasm

That's an excellent question and I'm glad you're asking me... since I don't really have a solution maybe a few wild speculations...
I guess we'd have to start with exploring what information is.
As I see it that's at least two things, at the very root something binary and fundamental as there/not-there, or on/off if you prefer, which is also not as straight forward as one might think with loads of philosophical implications, like is it on/there if it's interacting? But that can't be, because the neutrino is there but not interacting as far as we know, or very rarely.
And if it's not-there/off surely the potential of it still is "existing".
.... and after we #ed our brain with that we could enjoy even messier things like how as soon as interactions start "stuff" seems to have a tendency to produce more and more complex systems that interact with its environment in new ways, building up even more complex systems etc.


Information is the purpose of everything.
It is the Alpha and Omega of existence. If you're not information you are only a possibility in a cloud and the one spike that makes it through the cloud is existence. Stuff wants to exist. Or at least there's a high probability some of it will.

And besides that you'll have to ask the universe why it wants to be seen and measured and counted...
Lol jk
I'm still working on the details
That was probably the longest "I don't know" in the history of ATS

originally posted by: cooperton

Personally, the more I learn, the more I re-evaluate what God is. When I was an atheist for a large portion of my life I perceived God as unnecessary because science was beginning to calculate many things in this world. How could I have missed the fact that these forces that keep everything in equilibrium were essentially a sort of code or programming that allows life to persist?? These laws are precise, and the life they sustain is intelligent. To suppose these ordered systems came to be through random chance or an accident is no longer a possibility in my mind.

I understand and respect your beliefs, but for me I see it as it would need to be something and there could be infinite somethings out there all different. There is no perfection in the universe, there is only what we have, and we suggest it is perfection since there is nothing to compare it to...Gravity is perfect it is said as an example..not too much or too little, but once again gravity would be perfect in any universe since that would be what the universe has even when it may be different in each one. Earth is perfect for life because life is here not that the earth was first created for life...see the difference.

This universe is very favorable to life in general it seems, so guess what? There is life...lol

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: TzarChasm

That's an excellent question and I'm glad you're asking me... since I don't really have a solution maybe a few wild speculations...
I guess we'd have to start with exploring what information is.
As I see it that's at least two things, at the very root something binary and fundamental as there/not-there, or on/off if you prefer, which is also not as straight forward as one might think with loads of philosophical implications, like is it on/there if it's interacting? But that can't be, because the neutrino is there but not interacting as far as we know, or very rarely.
And if it's not-there/off surely the potential of it still is "existing".
.... and after we #ed our brain with that we could enjoy even messier things like how as soon as interactions start "stuff" seems to have a tendency to produce more and more complex systems that interact with its environment in new ways, building up even more complex systems etc.


Information is the purpose of everything.
It is the Alpha and Omega of existence. If you're not information you are only a possibility in a cloud and the one spike that makes it through the cloud is existence. Stuff wants to exist. Or at least there's a high probability some of it will.

And besides that you'll have to ask the universe why it wants to be seen and measured and counted...
Lol jk
I'm still working on the details
That was probably the longest "I don't know" in the history of ATS

Not the longest, but more honest than most. And you did a great job of explaining how complicated information is when you try to throw a galaxy at a bullseye. This makes it particularly difficult to say with any certainty what information is and isn't supposed to do, not to mention how that information was derived or whether it was engineered.

originally posted by: carsforkids

But don't you see you're the one who's assuming it's magic if it has
to do with God. That's not me. I'm using the magic show and magic as
a metaphor.

Me too as in God is a metaphor for magic and magic is a metaphor for anything we do not understand yet.

If we someday find out the key to the whole universe
is vibration. Then it seems to me that sound could very easily be the
mechanism that caused the right vibration to form matter. It's not
a big leap from there to what it says basically in Genesis. God spoke
and it was so. I mean that is the definition of the word God.

Is that vibration intelligent or just vibrating... To be honest God wouldn't even be intelligent as we perceive. It would be something so far removed from that term that it would be better to say God is infinite energy. The question is why do we insist in using the word intelligent in the first place.

The reason is because at the base level of belief is that God made man for a purpose. Man didn't just happen chance to come along in a universe created by God using his rules and laws. We are special in some way over all other life.

So in the end did God make man directly or did man just happen to come about through the random acts on planet earth as life evolved? Are we special Gods little children or a life form in a universe of uncountable lifeforms?

Sucks not to be special...

a reply to: Xtrozero

Me too as in God is a metaphor for magic and magic is a metaphor for anything we do not understand yet.

Okay very good then.

Is that vibration intelligent or just vibrating... To be honest God wouldn't even be intelligent as we perceive. It would be something so far removed from that term that it would be better to say God is infinite energy. The question is why do we insist in using the word intelligent in the first place.

Look my man, A being that powerful is fully capable in my mind .
Of seeing to it that we have a way of knowing about him thru any
means he chooses. If he appoints the hand of certain men to write
scripture thru a certain age? Well he's God. He does what he wants in
his time. The best qualifying candidate on this whole planet where
we can indeed find that description? For those of us who seek him?

There is no other book worth the attention or that makes such perfect
sense as the THE HOLY BIBLE period. When you speak of God it is impossible
to separate him from his word. Because his word is what put you and
i here at this moment using words to discuss his topic.

Why do I insist on using the word intelligent?

Because obviously that's the best most reliable information about him
I have seen.

No it doesn't suck not to be special. What would absolutely suck is
to be here only as a space between to nothings. We are greater
than that because God is special. Not you or me or any of us.

And I'm not even a Bible thump'n Holy roller. But I am so far
beyond belief I'd rather just say I know. You likely put the
Creator out of your mind a long time ago. I didn't I chose to
understand and he has shown me in incremental messages
over sometimes many years. That when they arrive they're
like nothing I can describe.

It's shock it's joy it's immense beyond words and once you
receive the tiniest taste of him communicating with you,
You can never ever get enough, you're an instant junkie. If
you do not seek you will not find. It's bloody wholesale true
and it doesn't stop there. It isn't called the living Bible for
nothing. But that's for another time.

originally posted by: Peeple

originally posted by: cooperton

...
Personally, the more I learn, the more I re-evaluate what God is...

And that first sentence is exactly the problem. In a way science, maths, coding... brings you a lot closer to God than just reading any ancient text, doesn't it?
One could say that every religion that gets in the way of people doubting, thinking, going through the "evidences" (I come back to that) is actively hindering humanity on its pursuit to understand & for the first time coming up with a definition of God that isn't complete hogwash.

Is the Big Bang Inflation Theory bs? Yes sure it absolutely is, every half way sane person can tell that, when you look at lambda and the absurd notion that there's a total of 95% "dark stuff" you need to believe to be remotely in a position to swallow it.

On the other hand it's equally absurde to believe that the entire universe could be anthropic. We are microbes in the face of a dynamic gigantic body we have to assume is endless/infinite that's how #ing small and insignificant we are.

The logical conclusion can only be that the universe as a system "has a plan" and it's entirely possible we die out and be gone and will never learn that we were only one minor step in the big plan of the universe becoming God.
Because this universe is not made for us, hell even this planet is not made for us.
And the fine-tuned-ness and all of that what we think are "universal laws" are absolutely changeable. They haven't always been the same, they will not always be the same.

So the only service to God, imho is gathering information, knowledge, enable computers to store data more effectively and become energy independent because we're a fairly inefficent outdated model in a universe where the only thing that matters is information.
While the true "dark matter & energy" are the 95% ignorant dumb #s who think God would actually give a #.

And the "evidence" in a nice twist of events can never be purely mathmatical. Because everything can be proven in a function or equation and you fiddle the numbers a bit adjust to get to the result you want, invent #ing lambda and whatnot and that's just not evidence of anything.

The truth, the reality happens in the brain, the great flawed perception device we were given and only if we could get to a point where healthy informed smart people live free peaceful lives and can think # true will we ever make progress in both religion and science, as they're both the #ing same thing and both get used so very wrong always just for control and never for liberation.

And I'm sure whatever or whoever God may be he would sign that

For what it's worth I applaud your efforts here. I appreciate this kind of
participation in my threads. I know the OP was abrasive and if you were offended
I apologize. It only served the purpose of getting the ball rolling in the preferred
direction.

a reply to: Peeple
a reply to: Xtrozero

Physical laws have not changed in the past known history. Before we go fiddling with the idea of other dimensions, let's analyze our own. The earth we inhabit has many cycles that re-direct energy in a homeostatic manner... Consider plants and animals... the plants take in CO2 and emit O2, while animals take in O2 and emit CO2. Animals eat plant matter, and poop out matter that fertilizes plants. These sorts of co-dependent systems indicate biology is a designed system... Especially since step-by-step evolutionary mechanisms cannot make both at the same time (let alone even one novel function).

We are at the perfect zone where water hovers over our most immediate atmosphere in the form of a cloud, and then rains down sustenance on the earth, only to be drawn back up again to repeat the process to allow continual sustenance. These systems are precisely calibrated. The sun has remained in a perfect position not to scorch or deprive us of heat. Sure, someone could try to attribute all these, and many more attributes of our homeostatic universe, to random chance. But, it is highly more probable it is a designed system.

If we are a designed system, then we are left to analyze our relation to the Designer. We our selves are upright supercomputers capable of logic, emotions, self-repair, sexual reproduction, and imagination along with dynamic limbs that allow us movement through this 3D material matrix. In other words, we are the perfect creating vessel - epitomized by our hands and opposable thumbs which are seamlessly linked to the most encephalized cerebral cortex on earth. Also considering that we are the only animals that can tame other animals, I dare humbly to say that we ourselves, human beings, are the material manifestation of a Creator Spirit.. made in the very semblance of the Creator of the Universe.

Do not get ungrounded pondering about what's out there deep in space... We know most about what's here on earth... and we humans are the protagonists of the story.

originally posted by: cooperton
a reply to: Peeple
a reply to: Xtrozero

Physical laws have not changed in the past known history. Before we go fiddling with the idea of other dimensions, let's analyze our own. The earth we inhabit has many cycles that re-direct energy in a homeostatic manner... Consider plants and animals... the plants take in CO2 and emit O2, while animals take in O2 and emit CO2. Animals eat plant matter, and poop out matter that fertilizes plants. These sorts of co-dependent systems indicate biology is a designed system... Especially since step-by-step evolutionary mechanisms cannot make both at the same time (let alone even one novel function).

We are at the perfect zone where water hovers over our most immediate atmosphere in the form of a cloud, and then rains down sustenance on the earth, only to be drawn back up again to repeat the process to allow continual sustenance. These systems are precisely calibrated. The sun has remained in a perfect position not to scorch or deprive us of heat. Sure, someone could try to attribute all these, and many more attributes of our homeostatic universe, to random chance. But, it is highly more probable it is a designed system.

If we are a designed system, then we are left to analyze our relation to the Designer. We our selves are upright supercomputers capable of logic, emotions, self-repair, sexual reproduction, and imagination along with dynamic limbs that allow us movement through this 3D material matrix. In other words, we are the perfect creating vessel - epitomized by our hands and opposable thumbs which are seamlessly linked to the most encephalized cerebral cortex on earth. Also considering that we are the only animals that can tame other animals, I dare humbly to say that we ourselves, human beings, are the material manifestation of a Creator Spirit.. made in the very semblance of the Creator of the Universe.

Do not get ungrounded pondering about what's out there deep in space... We know most about what's here on earth... and we humans are the protagonists of the story.

More bs. Physical laws HAVE changed. If there was a "designer", those laws would be perfect from the start. And they're not. The numbers change, even some of the concepts have changed. This is due to better instrumentation and more thorough mathematical analysis.

You know nothing about "physical laws". You're an idiot trying to sell a fraud and a sick cult.

originally posted by: Phantom423
Physical laws HAVE changed.

Which physical laws have changed? Experimentation shows otherwise

"Using our results together with the previous best estimates of β, we impose strict limits on the variation of fundamental constants, resulting in a test of general relativity with an unprecedented level of precision."
source

article explained further

You lost

No phantom, the only one who loses in a conversation is the person who's bigotry and chauvinism prevent them from communicating in a cordial manner. The fact that you are left with nothing but insults shows who is actually the lost one here.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Phantom423
Physical laws HAVE changed.

Which physical laws have changed? Experimentation shows otherwise

"Using our results together with the previous best estimates of β, we impose strict limits on the variation of fundamental constants, resulting in a test of general relativity with an unprecedented level of precision."
source

article explained further

You lost

No phantom, the only one who loses in a conversation is the person who's bigotry and chauvinism prevent them from communicating in a cordial manner. The fact that you are left with nothing but insults shows who is actually the lost one here.

Creationism, Ken Ham, Hovid and you comprise a sick cult. That's a fact. There isn't a single Judeo/Christian religion that endorses you. That's also a fact.
Sick, corrupt and evil.

originally posted by: carsforkids

Look my man, A being that powerful is fully capable in my mind .
Of seeing to it that we have a way of knowing about him thru any
means he chooses. If he appoints the hand of certain men to write
scripture thru a certain age? Well he's God. He does what he wants in
his time. The best qualifying candidate on this whole planet where
we can indeed find that description? For those of us who seek him?

There is no other book worth the attention or that makes such perfect
sense as the THE HOLY BIBLE period. When you speak of God it is impossible
to separate him from his word. Because his word is what put you and
i here at this moment using words to discuss his topic.

Why do I insist on using the word intelligent?

Because obviously that's the best most reliable information about him
I have seen.

No it doesn't suck not to be special. What would absolutely suck is
to be here only as a space between to nothings. We are greater
than that because God is special. Not you or me or any of us.

And I'm not even a Bible thump'n Holy roller. But I am so far
beyond belief I'd rather just say I know. You likely put the
Creator out of your mind a long time ago. I didn't I chose to
understand and he has shown me in incremental messages
over sometimes many years. That when they arrive they're
like nothing I can describe.

It's shock it's joy it's immense beyond words and once you
receive the tiniest taste of him communicating with you,
You can never ever get enough, you're an instant junkie. If
you do not seek you will not find. It's bloody wholesale true
and it doesn't stop there. It isn't called the living Bible for
nothing. But that's for another time.

Doesn't something like a bible and a creator of universes that would be an unlimited force outside of all we know not really match up?

So to change this up some...20,000 year ago humans were basically really smart bears in being hunter and gathers and then we started to grow things and that turned into domesticating some animals. We worked on that for over 10,000 years were we started to develop language, and about 6000 years ago the first true language was used. Then civilization took off at a pace never seen before, but we are still talking 1000s of years for improvements.

As we moved into about 1000 years ago that 1000s of years to like double our knowledge was now 100s of year, and then about 1700 that was down to 100 years, 1900 hit and we are talking horse and buggy to on the moon in 70 years. Today it is suggested it is down to 10 years now as to huge gains.

Before Hawking died he said man has taken over his own evolution. Musk wants to create neural implants because he sees AI evolve much faster than man can and feels we need to emerge with AI to stay at the same pace. In 50 years man will be much different and in 5000 years just think of what man might be? In 10,000 years we might be terraforming another plant and planting life there in our image...

That is just 10,000 year or so, how about a billion?

To be honest I'm not sure if higher intelligence is a good trait. Evolution seems to create many traits with good ones moving on through reproduction and bad ones dying off. So far intelligence doesn't look all that good once it passes a certain point. We can destroy life on the earth 1000 times over as example, but if we live through that period there is a good chance we will become something that isn't really life as the universe creates.

I wonder how that all fits into God's plan since he plans everything it seems, so whatever we do even if we destroy the earth it is actually God's plan. ANYTHING that happens within his universe would be God's plan.