Why Historically Known cultures hid information about the Ice Age

a reply to: LABTECH767

Well to put things in context, humans lived in the stone age for 3.3-3.4 million years and we've been in the metallurgical ages (copper age, bronze age, iron age, todays age) for the last 5 thousand years or so. I'm willing to bet the the people of the stone age understood the art of stone technologies way better than we ever will. Sadly the information has been mostly lost due to the Stone age dark ages, and compounded by the Bronze age collapse. Hell, people during the Italian Renaissance had to steal ideas from the Romans to build the great city works of their day. Now just imagine the stuff that was lost during the Library of Alexandria, then reflect on the 3 million years of the stone age worth of passed down information that became lost to time. We marvel at some of the stone megalith structures that remain, but to them those were probably crap structures.

a reply to: Guyfriday

It wasn't just stone technology, wood technology would have been way advanced. you can have certain types of wood for bearings and if they are lubricated last for years, not to mention windmills and water wheels. I mean they were using lignum vitie as the shaft bearing in submarines well into the fifties, and the original pistons of seagull outboard motors were made from it along with a flash cover on top of the original two stroke engine. A steady stream and a water wheel would be low tech and you have a factory.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: JON666

Yes im aware of the firmament.

Bible says a lot of things.

Ever herd of a thunderbird?

Those have been reported throughout history, as have alleged pterodactyl sightings.

How the hell you can determine the flight characteristics of winged prehistoric creatures is beyond me.

Unless you have a spare Tardis handy.

The thunder bird has been sighted in recent times when was the last time a Pterodactyl was seen in recent history?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Many well known groups and or nation's actively destroyed the history of humanity, bastardizing it to what it is today.

It's done in modern times as well, terrorists destroying ancient art recently as an example

a reply to: anonentity

This is a good point, there must have been a wooden age so to speak. Maybe we should be looking at a "Naturalist Age" that encompasses "Foraging Ages" Wood Age" and "Stone Age", and a "Metallurgical Age" which encompasses "Copper Age" "Bronze Age" "Iron Age" and the "Steel Age".

Oh back to the topic of this thread;

For the most part people need to look at the generalized stories of myths and legends in order to pick true history from. When you look at these stories you get to find all kinds of interesting facts that can be collaborated on by other sources.

a reply to: Guyfriday

All those ages require smelting the metals from the ore for precision parts, if you knew your stone as they did, and taking into account some of the impossible carvings on Indian temples why bother smelting ? some stones can take the heat of combustion, a stone diesel engine sounds stupid , but polygonal walls are impossible as well ,and they are all over the world.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: JON666

The Babylonian records and clay tablets/seals also record their earliest kings living in excess of a 1000 years and being rather tall.

Hyperbole being as thing back then also may be the case.

Ile entertain the notion humans lived longer under different atmospheric conditions 10s of thousands of years ago, but not a thousand years.

And some actual evidence might be nice.

I wonder if maybe what happened here, is just that people back then truly believed in reincarnation. Perhaps after the ruler died, then they would examine the children that got born in the next few years, and decide somehow that one of them was the same person reincarnated. Then begin an education program to "help them remember".

The Dalai Lama is believed to be such a person even today.


However, after the rise of agriculture caused people to start having large families, with continuous population growth, it became harder and harder to believe that each new generation was really just the previous one being reborn.

The belief system changed, and death became permanent. (By which I mean it was now believed to be permanent, whereas before it was believed to be temporary until you reincarnate.)


Essentially, Adam and Eve eating the apple, actually did cause them to become mortal.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

I don't know if larger families was really an issue. Hunter-gatherer groups were essentially one large family. But agriculture did make it possible (and required) for much larger groups of people to exist in one particular location.

This required new rules but enforcement of those rules was problematic. So the idea that your actions now will have consequences later (even if you get away with it now) became the paradigm. The only real difference between reincarnation and "the kingdom" is that with the former you just keep trying until you get it right, with the latter you only get one shot. Either way, "you better watch out, you better not shout."


It would have been cool to live during the last glacial period. In the tropics.

originally posted by: ElGoobero
I remember reading about this a few years ago

the author suggested that man's earliest memories should have been nightmarish--wandering, forever one step from starving, competing with saber-tooth tigers, dire wolves, etc.

instead, cultures seem to have Eden myths, in which people were once much happier and had easier lives before (fill in blank) happened and ruined everything.

Christians / Jews of course blame the exile from Eden and the later flood.

someone suggested the transition from hunter-gatherer (a fun easy life, in his opinion) to settled farms, near-slavery, drudge work, limited diet.

imagine how Native Americans lived before the Europeans. less efficient, fewer numbers, but much more freedom and healthier lifestyle.

other than some Norse myths I'm not aware of any ice disaster stories. one would think that the ice would have been recent enough to have inspired some memory.

This here contains what I think is the difference. When we think of hunter-gatherer societies now (meaning our thinking now, not H-G societies existing now), we generally think of a hard life: threats from human competition, wildlife, nature, seasonal hardships (cold/heat, depending on locale), in some cases, times of food scarcity, etc.

But amidst the hardships, we find an idyllic life. Freedom, living ones own life, beholden to only one's family or tribe.

I know several people who gave up the city/corporate life to become farmers/ranchers (my dream, even if it takes until retirement / early retirement to fulfill.

They all say more or less the same thing. The work is harder, the hours are longer, but its fulfilling and enjoyable.

If I break the handle on a $20 shovel, I buy a new shovel. "It's not worth my time to fix." is the common refrain. Why use an hour of my time when I can make a few more calls / send a few more emails in that time and make an extra $100-300? If they break a shovel, it's just part of what you do. Shave down a piece of lumber, saw & chisel the old handle out, stick the new one in, set it with a pin, and the trusty shovel is back in action.

With your time, you do the work that needs doing on your land / house. There's no need to keep a running calculus on whether it makes sense to do so. Do the work that needs doing, then sit back on your porch, drink a home-brewed beer while cooking up a slab of ol' Bessie on the grill. There's a satisfaction to doing the work, and it never feels like work - it's just living.

I imagine that's how the H-G's felt in comparison!

a reply to: JON666
That's because they counted their age by lunar cycles and not solar cycles, this is a very interesting topic and I think I would use occums razor with it. The ice ages where the opposite to your postulation, very few survived out the other side to tell the story and after several generations of subsistence living things like written history never made it though and only oral passed the test of time.

With oral history things would get simplified and details would be missed not unlike Chinese whispers, eventually only the most basic message would survive and that's the story of the Great Flood.

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Culturally, primitive people tend to worship angry/vengeful gods and spirits that require appeasement at every turn. With less control over their food supply and the dangers of primitive living, I'd suspect they were in constant fear of their deities along with everything else.

I have to respectfully push back on the above, it is civilized people who tended to be the most murderous, priest/ kings who sacrificed virgins to appease the Gods/ Goddess, to have rainfall to replenish the earth or the sun God sky daddy to play his part, typically a "primitive " Hg , would pray for good hunting or thank the animal who gave it's life for the benefit of the tribe, yes in lean yrs there maybe competition for hunting grounds, but sud busters and herders hate each other up to the present, e.g. Cowboys vs farmers in the American West back in the day, Fulani herds men vs Dogan farmers today.

Matter of fact the more "civilized" the more murderous , everything is ratchet up to a massive scale, right now we are at our most advanced and "civilized" yet we can end us at any moment, with or without nukes.

I see your point. The more primitive the society, the less you see evidence of violence and fear in their religious ideas. With less time on their hands to have complex rituals, I can believe that. Still, it is fear of a spirit or a god's revenge for not giving it the respect necessary through prayer and offerings.

In my study of early North American Native religions, there is a pattern of having gods and spirits jealously guarding sacred places, like bodies of water, mountains, certain regions, etc. along with the spirits of wild animals, plants and things like "medicinal" herbs that need appeasement when utilized.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: Harte

Strangely I have to ask your opinion about this article:

From: ancient.eu

Writing is the physical manifestation of a spoken language. It is thought that human beings developed language c. 35,000 BCE as evidenced by cave paintings from the period of the Cro-Magnon Man (c. 50,000-30,000 BCE) which appear to express concepts concerning daily life. These images suggest a language because, in some instances, they seem to tell a story (say, of a hunting expedition in which specific events occurred) rather than being simply pictures of animals and people.

Although they do admit that a structured written language doesn't emerge until much later, they do bring this point up;

The earliest form of writing was pictographs – symbols which represented objects – and served to aid in remembering such things as which parcels of grain had gone to which destination or how many sheep were needed for events like sacrifices in the temples. These pictographs were impressed onto wet clay which was then dried, and these became official records of commerce. As beer was a very popular beverage in ancient Mesopotamia, many of the earliest records extant have to do with the sale of beer. With pictographs, one could tell how many jars or vats of beer were involved in a transaction but not necessarily what that transaction meant. As the historian Kriwaczek notes,

"All that had been devised thus far was a technique for noting down things, items and objects, not a writing system. A record of `Two Sheep Temple God Inanna’ tells us nothing about whether the sheep are being delivered to, or received from, the temple, whether they are carcasses, beasts on the hoof, or anything else about them."

So what limits the thoughts that the Lascaux caves (I hope I spelt that correctly) aren't descriptive writings in an early yet lost language? Why waste time painting it if it wasn't important for some reason?

Did you know those were painted over other paintings?
Strongly suggests it was ritualistic or shamanistic.
But it's a record of the past - at least a visual one - and it wasn't "hidden," was it?

One red flag - you mention "Cro Magnon Man" as if that was a type of human.
It's us.

Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: LABTECH767

Well we know from sites such as Gobekli Tepe that symbolic writings were being used for communication as far back as 9100 bce.

Can you explain why it is that you believe that?

Harte

a reply to: JON666

Here you go, and those are just a few Pterodactyl sightings and reports, hope there are recent enough for you.

www.dailymail.co.uk... -Ohio.html

www.charlottestories.com...

www.wfmj.com...

Keep in mind i did say "alleged".

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: LABTECH767

Well we know from sites such as Gobekli Tepe that symbolic writings were being used for communication as far back as 9100 bce.

Can you explain why it is that you believe that?

Harte

Each pillar had different symbols on them, and it would appear that the site was in a possible trading area. If these are proven to be correct, then it would be had to say that the symbols used on the pillars were not used as a crude (at least to us) form of symbolic language.

Oh I didn't say "Cro Magnon Man", that was a quote from the linked article.

originally posted by: Guyfriday

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: LABTECH767

Well we know from sites such as Gobekli Tepe that symbolic writings were being used for communication as far back as 9100 bce.

Can you explain why it is that you believe that?

Harte

Each pillar had different symbols on them, and it would appear that the site was in a possible trading area. If these are proven to be correct, then it would be had to say that the symbols used on the pillars were not used as a crude (at least to us) form of symbolic language.

Oh I didn't say "Cro Magnon Man", that was a quote from the linked article.

It's been established that people came to Gobekli Tepe from a wide area, based on the lithics found there. It's likely that when a number of diverse groups meet, trade happens. However, there's nothing to indicate that the carvings there are anything but simple motifs. They may have some kind of religious or ritual application, or they might have been clan totems or something like that, but it's way too much of a stretch to consider them to be some form of symbolic language.

Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: LABTECH767

Well we know from sites such as Gobekli Tepe that symbolic writings were being used for communication as far back as 9100 bce.

Can you explain why it is that you believe that?

Harte

Each pillar had different symbols on them, and it would appear that the site was in a possible trading area. If these are proven to be correct, then it would be had to say that the symbols used on the pillars were not used as a crude (at least to us) form of symbolic language.

Oh I didn't say "Cro Magnon Man", that was a quote from the linked article.

I've always suspected that trade is the true origin of writing. A trader would want to keep records of their inventory so they don't have to just remember it all. A "#" might be his symbol for carrots. A "&" could be his symbol for potatoes.

Then maybe he has two stores, and he starts wanting the other store to send him a list of its inventory so he can share inventories between stores, and he's sending them a list back, and one day he realizes he could also encode an instruction into the message for his apprentice at the other store.

And one problem with the ice age is, it was really dangerous to travel far from your home. Too many very large animals out there. (Which is another reason I doubt these were migratory hunter/gatherers.) The sea being a lone exception. You could sail the ocean without getting ambushed by short faced bears. But you'd have to live near its edge.......

originally posted by: mazzroth
a reply to: JON666
That's because they counted their age by lunar cycles and not solar cycles, this is a very interesting topic and I think I would use occums razor with it. The ice ages where the opposite to your postulation, very few survived out the other side to tell the story and after several generations of subsistence living things like written history never made it though and only oral passed the test of time.

With oral history things would get simplified and details would be missed not unlike Chinese whispers, eventually only the most basic message would survive and that's the story of the Great Flood.

That would tend to indicate they didn't practice agriculture, then. Agri is what made people start to take better notice of the 4 seasons.

Or maybe they lived so close the the equator that there really weren't 4 seasons.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: LABTECH767

Well we know from sites such as Gobekli Tepe that symbolic writings were being used for communication as far back as 9100 bce.

Can you explain why it is that you believe that?

Harte

You may not like Schoch and co but they have made some interesting claim's.
robertschoch.com...
www.researchgate.net...'s_First_Known_Written_Word_at_Gobekli_Tepe_on_T-Shaped_Pillar_18_Means_God

I would argue that there are possibly older example of if not Writing them certainly pictorial symbolism such as troglodyte artefacts such as bones that have mysterious carvings on them, even Denisovan peoples may have had the ability to think abstract thought and while we may not see it as writing they were carving bones over 125000 years ago with patterns that have been thought of as Art but could equally have had symbolic meaning to them.

And then we have the whole argumentative subject of Ooparts of which there are many anecdotal tales but often very little surviving evidence such as the story of French Quarrymen a couple of century's ago working a seam of marble only to dig below a certain point and find the marble below that point over 20 feet under were they had been working and buried had already been worked by someone, they dug down and found already worked pillars and while this may indeed have been Roman period they found a quarryman's board lower down that was petrified and turned to stone broken into two pieces (you know the story the one in which they found a couple of letters carved into the stone that may have been letters resembling and an inverted I and U or a lower case n and a I together like this IU).

You know Harte little inconvenient thing's like that and lump's of coal with gold chain's in them and nail's and other oddities that should not exist.

All we know is what we KNOW and what we do not is pure speculation and that includes your views, welcome as your constructive and often enlightened critique most certainly is.

originally posted by: [post=25374315]bloodymarvelous

I've always suspected that trade is the true origin of writing. A trader would want to keep records of their inventory so they don't have to just remember it all. A "#" might be his symbol for carrots. A "&" could be his symbol for potatoes.

Then maybe he has two stores, and he starts wanting the other store to send him a list of its inventory so he can share inventories between stores, and he's sending them a list back, and one day he realizes he could also encode an instruction into the message for his apprentice at the other store.

that is an awesome theory.
I've noticed that an awful lot of recovered tablet fragments seem to be mercantile in nature.
easy to imagine a symbol for 'wheat grains' and some sort of slash marks for quantity and on from there.

a big problem for archaeologists &tc is the media; papyrus and such are not meant for long-term storage.

From what I can see many advanced civilisations came before us.
I dont know how long they live'd.
the grate empire of Rome all most conquered the world.
but political corruption and the like made them fall.
some thing like the USA now.

you can find stuff on youtube one thing found in mines over 50,000
to 4,000,000 years old that need advanced techniques to make.
how so of the pyramid have been cut we still can not do.
some of the stones polishing and cuting would need dimond!

the church made a big effort to keep the dinosaurs
a secret and the age of them.
they need you to belive the world is only 6500 years old!
the catholic church in 1950 finaly agree the world is not flat!

it would not be good for the mental health of the world if they
know that about ever 50,000 +/- we destroy civilisation and start over.
so the government and church hides it.
thoe some times its meteors, the sun or nature.
mostly US!