When Will the U.S.A. Formally Split?

a reply to: TheRedneck

Sounds to me like he's suggesting people who place their beliefs in the philosophical, social, political, or the economic ideology of communism should not be allowed to vote.

People who share different opinions are not traitors, democracy can't function under such a premise I'm afraid.

a reply to: andy06shake

Sounds to me like he's suggesting people who place their beliefs in the philosophical, social, political, or the economic ideology of communism should not be allowed to vote.

Communism is antithetical to the US Constitution. Communism requires, as a basic tenet, the equal distribution of goods and services to all and someone has to make the decisions who gets what in an economy that is bounded by finite resources. To do so, the individual desires of the individual are removed from the equation. That would lead directly to violations of the Bill of Rights, thus, any attempt to overthrow the US government in favor of communism would indeed be traitorous.

That does not prohibit voluntary social programs as we have now, nor their expansion. Communism, however, is illegal under the United States Constitution. The only way to make it legal would be to amend the Constitution to not apply to the government, which would end the USA as we know it now.

People who share different opinions are not traitors, democracy can't function under such a premise I'm afraid.

The United States is not now, nor has it ever been, a Democracy. We use democratic principles to elect our leaders, but the government we elect them to is a Constitutional Republic. The difference is that under our system of government, the people cannot decide to arbitrarily remove rights from others. In a true Democracy, for instance, a majority of the people could decide that no one is allowed to possess firearms. In the United States, the government is prohibited from banning forearms. In a true Democracy, a majority of the people could vote to restrict free speech, deny the right to worship, outlaw protests, and all manner of similar things. In the United States they cannot.

If you are looking for a country that practices Democracy, you should look elsewhere. It ain't us, thankfully. True Democracy has been likened to two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. I consider that an apt comparison.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

You actually won't get any argument from me there.

But there goes your illusory notion of what constitutes freedom also.

All forms of government yet devised are about control TheRedneck, with democracy simply being a prison where one cannot see the bars.

That being said its the best system yet we have come up with.

My nations not that different, as we are a constitutional monarchy.

End of the day it's the bankers who have them all by the short and curlies.

a reply to: andy06shake

Democracy is also a joke. Too many uninformed and unintelligent people who vote. The fact someone who knows nothing about the issues gets an equal say to someone who is well informed, objective, etc is a huge downfall.

This is why Constitutional Republicanism works so well. Better yet is when the government/legislature is restrained and unable to pass all but the most rudimentary laws involves property, contracts, etc.

a reply to: JBurns

If its a joke then it's on us through.

With people fighting and bickering at one another over conflicting sets of political and social ideologies, none of which turn out to be the case.

So not the funny ha'ha sort of joke.

Depending on where one is standing i suppose.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: mtnshredder

Isn't that the truth

So much for foreign interference with our elections

Hahahaha
Ahahahaha hahahaha
Aaaahahahahahaha

a reply to: andy06shake

All forms of government yet devised are about control TheRedneck, with democracy simply being a prison where one cannot see the bars.

While that is true enough, neither can there be freedom without some sort of government.

One purpose of government is to promote justice and equality. That right there takes care of most of the conflict. If you and I both have the freedom of speech, neither of us can stifle the other's freedom of speech. My right to own a firearm stops where your right to not be shot without cause begins. Your right to speech stops when it endangers my right to safety. We are equal and have equal rights.

That cannot exist under communism. The very base tenet of communism is "to each according to their needs; from each according to their abilities." That sounds Utopian, but in reality someone has to decide who gets what and what is equal. If that person or persons were inherently honest and selfless, maybe it would work; very few people fit that description, and none of them could be chosen because those attributes would preclude them from making promises they cannot keep. So we have a system of government that will always transform into two classes: those who control and those who are controlled. There is no real difference between that and those who have and those who have not.

The very purpose of a Constitutional Republic is to minimize the power of government to only those areas where it is necessary: border control, national defense, and establishment of justice. Everything else is just mechanics to those ends. What Biden proposes falls into none of those categories... his proposals are all about control of the masses, which is the very thing you rail against. In contrast, Donald Trump has done nothing I am aware of that increases government control of the masses. He has concentrated on national security, border control, and establishment of justice.

To return to the topic of this thread, that is where the split lies: one "side" wants government out of their lives, out of their business, and back to its original intended duties. The other wants full and total control of everyone and anything in the country by the government. I fall into the former category, and I see no benefit to me in giving up freedom which I already have.

TheRedneck

Not soon enough

originally posted by: TheRedneck

The United States is not now, nor has it ever been, a Democracy. We use democratic principles to elect our leaders, but the government we elect them to is a Constitutional Republic.

By that definition of government, there has never been a dictatorship in all of world history.

Because if the people delegating their power to a "representative" qualifies as meaning the people aren't in charge, then it therefore follows that a dictator delegating any portion of his/her power to a "deputy" means the dictator is not in charge.

All congresspeople are is just deputies/delegates/clerks.

The difference is that under our system of government, the people cannot decide to arbitrarily remove rights from others. In a true Democracy, for instance, a majority of the people could decide that no one is allowed to possess firearms. In the United States, the government is prohibited from banning forearms. In a true Democracy, a majority of the people could vote to restrict free speech, deny the right to worship, outlaw protests, and all manner of similar things. In the United States they cannot.

In the USA the people can do all of those things.

They just have to get a 2/3 majority first, and amend the constitution.

If 2/3 of Americans really wanted to do away with gun ownership, they are free at any time to simply remove the 2nd amendment that grants the right to keep and bear arms.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: andy06shake

Democracy is also a joke. Too many uninformed and unintelligent people who vote. The fact someone who knows nothing about the issues gets an equal say to someone who is well informed, objective, etc is a huge downfall.

This is why Constitutional Republicanism works so well. Better yet is when the government/legislature is restrained and unable to pass all but the most rudimentary laws involves property, contracts, etc.

There is also the problem of well informed people choosing to intentionally lie.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The biggest advantage of democracy is not its "fairness". It's the spreading of power far and wide so that no one person ever gets hold of all of it.