Why America needs the draft again

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
JFK was a known philanderer, had lots of moral failings if you read up on him. I don't know if when you say "anit-Fed" if you're referring to Federal government overreach, or the Federal Reserve or both?

Anti-Federal Reserve, which he wasn't. He ended up giving it more influence.

If JFK really uttered those words, and actually intended to follow through on it, that'd make him a very brave, very principled and very circumspect politician in my book, and those are terms that don't often get used in the same sentence as 'politician'.

He didn't say that, every single one of his speeches is cataloged, going well back to before he was President.

You quoted my statement about MY reaction to JFK stating his desire to splinter the CIA. Why would quote me to debunk the meme from the other poster? How strange, but entirely expected.

Like I said, semantic games.

originally posted by: SleeperHasAwakened
Why would quote me to debunk the meme from the other poster? How strange, but entirely expected.

Because you commented on my reaction to his post and then interjected a wholly irrelevant comment he made about another topic which I didn't comment on. Try to follow along.

In any event, I'm thread drifting the OP, so I apologize and will get back on topic.

It's my opinion that a draft or compulsory national service would be a terrific idea. Doesn't even have to be military in nature; make the stated goal to help work on infrastructure, help undeserved communities, or some other pursuit.

The idea is to compel young people from different backgrounds, different cultures and different locations of the country to spend time together.

Anyone whose been through basic training or in the military in general understands this. You meet and work with folks from all over the country. Preconceived notions are often broken, or reinforced, but the idea is you have some tangible experience of dealing with your fellow citizens, and not something written on Facebook or talked about on cable news.

We have a lot of regionalism/sectionalism/tribalism, North vs South garbage. It manifests now more than ever with the COVID preparation accusations. In the past it manifested about tax and income, even funding relieve on natural disasters.

I read quite a number of posts from those in urban parts of the North East, where I live, deriding Southerners and those from rural areas. I think sometimes it's down in jest, but there's always a kernel of sincerity behind it.

Some pretty "daft" people (or nowadays they are labeled as racists or bigots) had the Latin phrase "E Pluribus Unum" inscribed on currency. Study the literal meaning of it and its implications, and understand why deriding fellow Americans over where they're from is a pretty small-minded pursuit.

Like I said, I think nothing bad can come from a national compulsory service where our young folks 'unplug' and start actually getting to know people from outside their bubbles.

... why do we need to have more people in the military? There’s far to much of the government forcing its will on citizens already. Forcing men into the military is essentially putting them at harms way, against their will. They send prisoners to war to die...

Without any great threat impending on the immediate lives of Americans, there is no purpose to raise an army, other than to impose the will of the government on its own people.

a reply to: stonerwilliam

This is a terrible idea if you support freedom and the individual. Forcing citizens to submit to authority and potentially be in harms way, to be treated as a resource of the government without the ability to advocate for their own agency... no that isn’t something I can support. This is the behavior of regimes like North Korea. Indoctrinating citizens into further systems of the state...

At will enlistment is a beautiful thing, I support and salute those who have taken it upon themselves to serve. Taking that choice out and forcing service upon its citizens is a type of power and control I never want to see my government wield over me or my children. That type of nationalization of our youth and ownership of them as a resource is disgusting and criminal.

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

This always comes up, "kids these days, they need it tougher, and need to learn some some stuff the hard way, let's bring back a draft." Sounds good...and while there are maybe a few pro's, its a bad idea.

1. How are you going to pay for the influx of several thousand or more inductees every week. Pay them and house them? The US only has what 3 or 4 actual basic training centers left? I supposed you could conduct some of this at the smaller National Guard Training Camps, as they have temporary barracks. But unless you fund major construction/upgrades/expansion at other bases (or have them live in tent cities/temp building the logistics alone would be a major expense.

2. With a professional army most of the people enlisting want to be there, With a draft you would have to go back to much heavier disciplinary programs (not a bad idea itself) but also confinement for draft dodgers, the non-compliant, etc. The combat effectiveness of the average soldier declines as physical standards would need to be lowered (Forces have a hard enough time finding qualified individuals as it is).

3. Then after basic and advanced training then what?Do they instantly go inactive ready reserve? National Guard. With this influx how much Larger do the services become? What does China and the Russians think when we double or triple the size of our armed forces?

I supposed that first point isn't a bad idea....put them through training, then immediately go to inactive reserve for 4 or so years, maybe 8. Then if you need them they only need a couple of weeks refresher training. That might be an ok idea.



3.

a reply to: grey580

Sometimes I think this may be the best route as in many cases some people would have a chance to gain some skills before moving on with their life. It may help steer them in a career path as well. My belief would be something between 12-24 months required training/service.

a reply to: Lr103

I got the milk rounds as a kid at 5 am i lasted 2 days on a paper round it was that big , i was down at the dairy to load the electric milk wagons in the early 70s and worked a Saturday until 10am then went to work on a farm most of the day , i got about 80 cents for the milk round and about a dollar or so for the farm work but by the time i was 10 i was able to take home in the summer holidays a mans wage by 12 i was doing 50 + hours a week , I wish i had half that energy now .

It is only a few years ago a school friend pointed this out to me That all i did as a kid was work my socks off ,But i thought that was normal and it was among a lot of us to get pocket money back then especially a kid like me who was getting raised by his poor grandparents Plus i was made to help in the garden .

We were made to grow up quick back then , Now kids are still at home until there late 20s and acting like kids my sisters daughter sounds a lot like your kids and acts the same living in their bedrooms glued to a phone 24/7 .

I got chucked out at 17 for working on a sunday and went to live with a G/F Before i was 21 i was running a firm of 40 plus men , hard work and 80-100 hours a week most of my adult life never did me any harm .

Now the governments of our countries do not bother with the young like they did 30-40 years ago with training schemes etc and give money to private firms to take up the slack which is not working everything in the Uk was put out to tender and all the work that local authorities/councils did was privatized and staff laid off resulting in massive decay of towns and cities and infrastructure everywhere you look , Everywhere i look i see decay the place is falling apart and the young are going to waste , something is going to give soon like America i can see race riots happening over here

originally posted by: Rob808
... why do we need to have more people in the military? There’s far to much of the government forcing its will on citizens already. Forcing men into the military is essentially putting them at harms way, against their will. They send prisoners to war to die...

Without any great threat impending on the immediate lives of Americans, there is no purpose to raise an army, other than to impose the will of the government on its own people.

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Not sending them to war , train them for fixing infrastructure and get them mentally and physically fit Build homes and new railways , the army etc would be better than letting the private sector do this task

a reply to: peter vlar

We do need to motivate these young ones and fix our respective countries up both America and the UK are falling apart at the seams and are looking tired and old the kids are out of control with no leadership to show them the right path in life .

I am not suggesting training them to be killing machines more working machines rather than let them rot in their bedrooms or on street corners and consumed by their fear of not being liked on Facebook etc

Why should you not have a choice if you want to go into a war or not? Yeah people blinded by patrioism might be happy enlisting and fighting a war that only benafits the rich and power. Oh, and by the way, these people do not give a crap Bout you, or if you live or die.

No one, and I mean no one should be forced to fight a war for these sociopaths. If you want to, then good for you!

Yeah, let’s just force people into doing whatever seems good at the time. The only way this country is going to get on track is by forcing people to do stuff. “Free” means “You’re free to do as I please, regardless if it benefits you or not.”

We should definitely force people to do something they want no part of, then train them how to be killing machines. That’s a SUPER GOOD IDEA DOOD!

a reply to: [post=25311643]TheConstruKctionofLight[/post we had a scheme 30-40 years ago in the Uk called YOP , it was for training the youth and making sure none of them fell through the cracks if you did not find a job at school leaving age you got put on that scheme and it worked .

They cleaned up the area and most got apprenticeships or went of to the forces it was simple ,cheap and it worked well back then , but like everything else we are going back the way

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I thought that was from the speech about the Media ?? much like what is happening today with president Trump

originally posted by: stonerwilliam
I thought that was from the speech about the Media ?? much like what is happening today with president Trump

Nope.

And the speech I think you're alluding to, The President and the Press, was given in 1961.

a reply to: Jay-morris

How many times?

No-one is advocating training people for frontline operations in whatever theatre of war TPTB have dragged us into at the time.

Basic military training instilling a sense of self-worth, personal and collective responsibility and some good old fashioned work ethic.
Then work within the community helping maintain and/or improve our much run down infrastructure or support other communal projects and services thus learning vital social and practical skills that could only be beneficial in a person's development.

Of course they would be paid an honest days wage for an honest days work.

No playing soldier and killing anyone.

Post Covid 19 employment opportunities are going to be few and far between for school leavers etc.
Such a scheme potentially could help address this problem.

The idea has merit.....how it could be practically implemented etc requires greater minds than mine.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Jay-morris

How many times?

No-one is advocating training people for frontline operations in whatever theatre of war TPTB have dragged us into at the time.

Basic military training instilling a sense of self-worth, personal and collective responsibility and some good old fashioned work ethic.
Then work within the community helping maintain and/or improve our much run down infrastructure or support other communal projects and services thus learning vital social and practical skills that could only be beneficial in a person's development.

Of course they would be paid an honest days wage for an honest days work.

No playing soldier and killing anyone.

Post Covid 19 employment opportunities are going to be few and far between for school leavers etc.
Such a scheme potentially could help address this problem.

The idea has merit.....how it could be practically implemented etc requires greater minds than mine.

I don’t think I’ll ever get to a point in life where I find it to be a good idea to force anyone to do anything they don’t want to do, outside of sending criminals to prison. I get the point and I’m sure it would work out in some cases, however, the government can’t be trusted to run anything without f*cking it up and, especially at this point in time, the only thing this would produce is a bunch of young adults pissed off that they were forced to do something they were told is for their own good.

It’s astounding to me that so many who claim they’re for freedom are consistently posting things on ATS that is the complete opposite of freedom. But hell, we got members here calling for the death of people who have not been tried in court, for crimes we do not kill people for, so I suppose I’m not too surprised.

Haven't read all reply's but why it's a good thing is because when kids of political figures or even the president are dying far away, they most likely change their minds about war and/or when in a war wan't to end it and leave.

Which happened before like with Vietnam.

When people choose to be in the military and die you won't see movements / protest of anti-war very fast. You do when your kids die with the draft.

Especially in today wars the population have almost zero connection/feeling with the wars (for the US the wars are also far far away). Like in ww2 you could see your enemy in the eyes with close combat, nowadays it's more about pressing a button and bombs falling/rockets flying. Let alone a long time ago when we fought wars with swords.

a reply to: Freeborn

Basic military training instilling a sense of self-worth, personal and collective responsibility and some good old fashioned work ethic.

So, only military trainsing can do that? Sorry, I do not agree, and the only thing this does is turn more people into conditioned patriots, which we do not need.

Sperry, but no one should have to do that if they do not want too.

Then work within the community helping maintain and/or improve our much run down infrastructure or support other communal projects and services thus learning vital social and practical skills that could only be beneficial in a person's development.

You can do all that without military training.

No playing soldier and killing anyone.

But in this day and age, chances you could be involved in some conflict on a big scale. That's where we are heading, and what better for these sociopathic leaders to get folks blood pumping to do their bidding? Give them a sense of patriotic pride.

Post Covid 19 employment opportunities are going to be few and far between for school leavers etc.
Such a scheme potentially could help address this problem.

Sorry, but I completly disagree, and I hope in this day and age, something lime that does not return to my country.

The idea has merit.....how it could be practically implemented etc requires greater minds than mine.

Each to their own I guess. I yhink you have to be a patriot to have these kind of ideas.

I am not a patriot.

a reply to: Charliebrowndog

It's totally possible that many people might find an interesting career in the military. I would say 6-9 months of training is plenty. And everyone has to attend. No school exceptions. Religious exceptions we can figure out an alternative.