Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

a reply to: Pachomius

I've been wondering if you would eventually land on something like this:

‘GOD’ for Atheists (and an Expanded, Scientific Definition of God for Everyone Else)

This is The Helix Nebula. It is also called “The Eye of God”.
...
More importantly, though, “The Eye of God”, like other nebulae, actually creates life. Yes, this, these massive aggregations of gases, create life... as well as stars and planets and virtually everything else in the physical Universe.
...
So, God lives, and continues to create — endlessly — through nebulae.
...
What if we added this scientific understanding to how we depict the “Creator”? What if we evolved and updated our definition of “GOD” by bowing to science (which if there is a “GOD”, he, she or it would have most certainly also created) and depicting “GOD” in a way that we now know is related to the actual, proven physical creation of stars, planets our own bodies and the universe itself?

I actually thought about this article which I had read way back in 2016 when I started reading this thread. www.abovetopsecret.com.... I've been looking for it off and on, but didn't remember the author's name. I kept looking at Sam Harris stuff.

I finally found it by going all the way back in posting history. Took a while.

Anyway, I thought you were looking for a definition of G.D similar to Richard Greene's. Looks like you're settling for some non-dualistic monism or something.

Edit to Add:
And his children's book, "E=MC2 and The New Definition of God" seeks to create a science based 21st Century understanding of the Universe that can be relevant to atheists and believers alike and unify the world religions." www.huffpost.com...

It's a children's book! I didn't know that!

There is really no need whatsoever to go anywhere or to any time phase, all we have to do is to start from the fact that we exist, and conclude on ourselves as evidence that God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


That is what I mean with honest intelligent productive thinking.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

... those that have faith, and a personal relationship.

True faith is not credulity, that is, a readiness to believe something without sound evidence or just because a person wants it to be so. Genuine faith requires basic or fundamental knowledge, acquaintance with evidence, as well as heartfelt appreciation of what that evidence indicates.

God

Definition: The Supreme Being, whose distinctive name is Jehovah. The Hebrew language uses terms for “God” that convey the idea of strength, also of majesty, dignity, and excellence. In contrast to the true God, there are false gods. Some of these have set themselves up as gods; others have been made objects of worship by those who serve them.

Are there sound reasons for believing in God?

Ps. 19:1: “The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.”

Ps. 104:24: “How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions.”

Rom. 1:20: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made.”

New Scientist magazine said: “The lay view persists—of scientists having ‘disproved’ religion. It is a view that commonly expects scientists to be nonbelievers; that Darwin put the last nails in God’s coffin; and that a succession of scientific and technological innovations since have ruled out the possibility of any resurrection. It is a view that is wildly wrong.”—May 26, 1977, p. 478.

A member of the French Academy of Sciences stated: “Natural order was not invented by the human mind or set up by certain perceptive powers. . . . The existence of order presupposes the existence of organizing intelligence. Such intelligence can be none other than God’s.”—Dieu existe? Oui (Paris, 1979), Christian Chabanis, quoting Pierre-Paul Grassé, p. 94.

Scientists have identified over 100 chemical elements. Their atomic structure displays an intricate mathematical interrelationship of the elements. The periodic table points to obvious design. Such amazing design could not possibly be accidental, a product of chance.

Illustration: When we see a camera, a radio, or a computer, we readily acknowledge that it must have been produced by an intelligent designer. Would it be reasonable, then, to say that far more complex things—the eye, the ear, and the human brain—did not originate with an intelligent Designer?

See also pages 84-86, under the heading “Creation.”

Does the existence of wickedness and of suffering prove that there is no God?

...

Source: God (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

See also:

Molecular Machinery of Life

After examining current research on the inner workings of the cell (which you can do above as well), British philosopher Antony Flew, once a leading champion of atheism, stated: “The almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), [show] that intelligence must have been involved.” Flew believes in “following the argument no matter where it leads.” In his case it led to a complete change in thinking, so that he now believes in God.

The human brain too leaves many scientists in awe. A product of DNA, the brain has been described as “the most complicated object in the universe.” Even the most advanced supercomputer looks positively primitive next to this approximately three-pound pinkish-gray mass of neurons and other structures. In the opinion of one neuroscientist, the more that scientists learn about the brain and the mind, “the more magnificent and unknowable it becomes.”

Consider: The brain enables us to breathe, laugh, cry, solve puzzles, build computers, ride a bicycle, write poetry, and look up at the night sky with a sense of reverential awe. Is it reasonable​—indeed, consistent—​to attribute these abilities and capacities to blind evolutionary forces?

Belief Based on Evidence

In order to understand ourselves, should we look down, as it were, to apes and other animals, as evolutionists do? Or should we look up to God for answers? Granted, we have certain things in common with animals. We have to eat, drink, and sleep, for example, and we are able to reproduce. Still, we are unique in many ways. Reason suggests that our distinct human traits stem from a Being higher than ourselves​—that is, from God. The Bible put that thought succinctly, stating that God formed mankind “in his image” morally and spiritually speaking. (Genesis 1:27) Why not contemplate God’s qualities, some of which are recorded at Deuteronomy 32:4; James 3:17, 18; and 1 John 4:7, 8.

Our Creator has given us the “intellectual capacity” to investigate the world around us and to find satisfying answers to our questions. (1 John 5:20) In this regard, physicist and Nobel laureate William D. Phillips wrote: “When I examine the orderliness, understandability, and beauty of the universe, I am led to the conclusion that a higher intelligence designed what I see. My scientific appreciation of the coherence, and the delightful simplicity of physics strengthens my belief in God.”

Some two thousand years ago, a discerning observer of the natural world wrote: “[God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” (Romans 1:20) The writer​—the Christian apostle Paul—​was an intelligent man and highly educated in the Mosaic Law. His reason-based faith made God a reality to him, while his acute sense of justice moved him to give due credit to God for his creative works.

a reply to: whereislogic

You

True faith is not credulity, that is, a readiness to believe something without sound evidence or just because a person wants it to be so.

Might be why I posted.......

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: neutronflux

I don't question faith.

But one should take stock of what they believe, and why.

—————————————

So. You need to read the whole thread, and take in account the context of arguments built over 34 pages...

Dear neutronflux, you are very active in this my thread.


Earlier I said that I would not deal with posters who 'reason' on revelation, that was a wrong resolution.


What I most aspire after is that anyone will ask me to concur with him over some thought that he has, that is connected to the topic of this thread.


So, I like to invite you to ask me for us both to work as to concur on a thought of yours, connected to this thread, but it must be only one thought, not many: try your very best to limit your words to less than 50, okay?

a reply to: Pachomius

What makes atheists “naughty”? That seems a religious stance?

a reply to: Pachomius

So? What is your honest evidence that your god exists?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

What makes atheists “naughty”? That seems a religious stance?

My description of atheists as naughty means [sincerely] from my part that they are silly and annoying and even cute.

I don't intend to say that they are into a religion, not at all: because a religion for me is a conduct of mankind by which on belief of a superior being like even a rabbit's foot, or God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, man seeks all kinds of help and favor from the superior being.


Are you and I concurring on something now?

At least I explain to you what I mean by uttering the phrase, naughty atheists.


Anyway, tell me what or how I should mean with the phrase naughty atheists, okay?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

So? What is your honest evidence that your god exists?

My honest and objective evidence that God exists in concept etc., are babies and roses and the nose on our face, but most importantly also existence itself, the kind that is represented by everything with a beginning, for the other kind of existence is without beginning, and this is God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

a reply to: Pachomius

My honest and objective evidence that God exists in concept etc.

It’s good to be the king of your own reality.

How is that any difference than someone having the concept of faith their own god exists. In concept?

are babies and roses and the nose on our face,

My nose houses by sense of smell. If my nose is removed with enough damage, I would be permanently disfigured. With partial, or the total loss of my sense smell. Changing reality. Step farther. Someone dies. A very real and permanent state which is reality

but most importantly also existence itself,

Ok?

the kind that is represented by everything with a beginning,

I don’t think there was babies, noses, and roses for at least 500 million years in the first emerging reality of the newly formed universe. With the heat, radiation and swirling gas and dust, probably more like 1 to 2 billion years. If not longer. I am on God’s time, not yours.

for the other kind of existence is without beginning

So. It’s kinda the universal faith that God always existed. But what is your proof. Your faith in a concept.


You

and this is God,

Yeap. That’s what most people who have faith in a god believe.

in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

If god exists, it’s not a concept. God is spiritual energy that was the catalyst that knowingly brought the existence of everything and life into reality.

And your full of crap. You said your god is a doer, not a talker.

Doer definition

1The person who does something.
‘the doer of the action’

www.lexico.com...

Definition of concept

An abstract idea; a general notion.
‘structuralism is a difficult concept’

So? Your God is “ The person who does something” “ An abstract idea; a general notion.”

Where does producing a reality where stars collide, stars produce gamma bursts, where people die, changing the reality fit into your concept?

And where is your proof your concept created anything? Where is the proof any god created anything?

a reply to: Pachomius

To sum up. You believe in a concept with no proof the concept actually created the universe and life. Just your faith the concept did so.

While contradicting your self between stating “your god is a doer, not a talker, vs “your god is a concept”.

a reply to: Pachomius

How is that any different than life being a dream in a dream?

Dear neutronflux, please bring up your thought for us to concur on, one at a time, not so many in one post.

And keep to less than 50 words per thought in per one post.


So, in one post each, you bring up one thought for one post - you see I like that we attend to one thought from you in one post, and in less than 50 words.


That makes for easy concentration and thus easy and effective concurrence, okay?


Now, just pick among the several thoughts in several each post from you, just one thought and that drafted in less than 50 words.

However, allow me to commend you for being a prolific and versatile assembler of words.

a reply to: Pachomius

Again. Definitions are not proof nor faith that leads to a relationship with God. Or to be one with creation.

a reply to: Pachomius

Example.

Definition of music

vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotions

www.lexico.com...

A definition that does nothing to stir the soul like actual music. Gives no differentiating characteristics of rock vs classical music.

And God is like the most beautiful and fearful love poem intertwined with music, math, and raw energy.

originally posted by: Pachomius

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

What makes atheists “naughty”? That seems a religious stance?

My description of atheists as naughty means [sincerely] from my part that they are silly and annoying and even cute.

I don't intend to say that they are into a religion, not at all: because a religion for me is a conduct of mankind by which on belief of a superior being like even a rabbit's foot, or God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, man seeks all kinds of help and favor from the superior being.


Are you and I concurring on something now?

At least I explain to you what I mean by uttering the phrase, naughty atheists.


Anyway, tell me what or how I should mean with the phrase naughty atheists, okay?

That's the whole point of god. Not because the universe had to start somewhere, or life needed to be designed, or because volcanoes and the weather and physics raise complicated questions about reality, but because we want control. And that control happens in the form of a godly creator being whose entire infinite existence revolves around our ridiculously tiny world because it makes us feel better, like a night light that only illuminates a corner of the room but it's enough to give us a little hope when imagination turns ugly. And it's the dark side of the mind that makes us want god so bad. Ego hates being alone with itself. God in a certain sense is a reflection of our most romantic childish fantasies. Just like a night light that pretends to be a guardian angel.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

Again. Definitions are not proof nor faith that leads to a relationship with God. Or to be one with creation.

I never say that Definitions are proof and faith that leads to a relationship with God - or to be one with creation.



Dear neutronflux, you remind me of a line in the internet:

“People are going to leave tonight without knowing what the criticism of your book is if you continue to filibuster!”

a reply to: Pachomius

This subject on ATS I think has been done to death and bottom line is, pour your heart out to God in whatever emotion you feel best to get an answers you need from. God, trust me...He can handle ALL the swearing, anger and any other emotional outbursts you may have when asking, He loves it that we're real and honest with Him. (He remembers that we are but dust)

Was a agnostic and racist 40 years ago...after listening to an explanation of the Bible & God in about 2 mins, from a near perfect atranger living under the same roof as i was and hearing God call my name with no one else in the room after he left...I knew God was as real as the air I breathe to this very day. To this day, I respect ALL human beings equally and God is not American, French, Israeli, Dutch, Russian or any other Nationality here on this planet He named Earth.

I had ZERO faith till then.

I will say this about God, our True Heavenly Father, he'll answer ANY questions you have about Him, but here's a tip......be careful what you ask for, ask wisely and the answer you get might not be the one you'd expect, but it will be an answer to your question.

Open your heart AND mind to receive.

Blessings and don't shoot me me, I'm just a messenger

a reply to: Pachomius

So. Then by all means quote from this thread where you posted actually evidence.

And what the hell was this all about?

You

My honest and objective evidence that God exists in concept

So god is only a concept? Something created in the minds of men? Instead of god physically creating men? I would think god would exist despite men. But if god only exists in concept......

Do your own words betray you?