Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

a reply to: TzarChasm

All semantics aside, your whole creationist hypothesis hinges on the existence of a cosmic wizard who utters an invocation and magics our world and all life into being. That's why humans are supposed to be demigods because God was modeled after our own existence, psychology and character defects included.

There are two versions of creation that have been told to us since young school age.

- The version that is the bible. And the scientific one.

If i remember correctly the one we were told about in school 40 years ago was like this. Our universe was created when two partickles of unkown origen collided. This is the theory i was brought up with since the early 70s. And it has been pounded into our heads through our school system year after year after year. Like it was a religion. Because there were no scientific evidence to back this up, that two particles ever collided. There are no evidence within our scientific community that it ever happened today. But this is what we had to answer on our school tests back in the day's. If you said something else like God did it,.. you answered the question wrong. And was probably told by your teacher to pay attention in class.

Do you see what we have gone through..? What we have to put up with..?

We are being groomed and set up to have specific mindsets....one through church and the other through our educational system.

What you are left with in the end is a big mess of nothing that makes sense. If you have the will you have to start going through everything on your own. We are besically left to our own mide to figure this topic out. There is not help, there are no clear evidence to pinpoint what you seak.

MONO




Dear Spy66, thanks a lot for your message below, I could not say it better.

Now I will just add that militant atheists are the evidence for why robots cannot be as 'good' (or better, as bad) as humans, because they cannot lie to themselves, like humans do, in particular militant atheists.

That is why humans have to see fellow human professionals to fix themselves, like psychiatrists, because they are not healthy for hiding themselves in their lies - it is unavoidable, you lie to yourself, you are going to get sick on the psychogical level.

Spy66 posted on Sep, 11 2020 @ 03:51 PM
a reply to: TzarChasm
- - - - - - - - - -

[ quote]From Tzar
All semantics aside, your whole creationist hypothesis hinges on the existence of a cosmic wizard who utters an invocation and magics our world and all life into being. That's why humans are supposed to be demigods because God was modeled after our own existence, psychology and character defects included.
[ /quote]


There are two versions of creation that have been told to us since young school age.

- The version that is the bible. And the scientific one.

If i remember correctly the one we were told about in school 40 years ago was like this. Our universe was created when two partickles of unkown origen collided. This is the theory i was brought up with since the early 70s. And it has been pounded into our heads through our school system year after year after year. Like it was a religion. Because there were no scientific evidence to back this up, that two particles ever collided. There are no evidence within our scientific community that it ever happened today. But this is what we had to answer on our school tests back in the day's. If you said something else like God did it,.. you answered the question wrong. And was probably told by your teacher to pay attention in class.

Do you see what we have gone through..? What we have to put up with..?

We are being groomed and set up to have specific mindsets....one through church and the other through our educational system.

What you are left with in the end is a big mess of nothing that makes sense. If you have the will you have to start going through everything on your own. We are besically left to our own mide to figure this topic out. There is not help, there are no clear evidence to pinpoint what you seak.

= = = = = = = = = =
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

- - - - - - - - - -
Humans are the only species that pay to live on Earth.

in closing...the argument for Evolution is always more logical. You guys attempt to disprove by implying that that evolution was shooting for a particular goal, and this is no more true than your atoms shooting for the goal of creating you. There is never a goal, there is only what results, and the result is always extremely improbable at some level. We are talking about millions, billions of years to arrive at where we are today...The argument that life and cells are too complex to exist without a designer still begs the question, if it were TRUE that the cell’s “specified complexity” required design, “How did God’s complexity come to exist without a designer?” The mind of the creator would not only need to store information about how to build a cell, but it would also need to be able to retrieve it, organize it in a meaningful way, and execute its creation. And if we’re talking about the God of the Bible, then his mind also contains countless volumes of complex information, down to how many hairs are on each person’s head. Every book on earth could not contain the knowledge in God’s mind. Also his creation of life and the universe would be flawless and perfect especially concerning his favorite project, man. Instead what we find in nature is the opposite which supports lengthy, evolutionary process, for which we do have plenty of evidence.
Also, there are more problems with the idea of an eternal, immaterial, intelligent being that exists without cause, than there are with the idea that matter exists without cause.

MONO




Toktaylor says

Instead what we find in nature is the opposite which supports lengthy, evolutionary process, for which we do have plenty of evidence.
Also, there are more problems with the idea of an eternal, immaterial, intelligent being that exists without cause, than there are with the idea that matter exists without cause.

Plenty of evidence for evolution?

1. Please let me know what is your concept of evidence, in the least number of words you can manage with.

2. Which is more parsimonious for an expanation, self-existent God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, or self-existent matter?

It depends upon your concept of what is matter, but from science we learn that matter is composed ultimately of subatomic particles among other ingredients, of course.

So, I would rather choose God as the more parsimonious explanation than subatomic particles and all the rest of the ultimate composition of the material world - considering that all these self-existent material components of the material universe have to work together by random chance.


Annex

toktaylo posted on Sep, 12 2020 @ 05:51 AM
- - - - - - - - - -

in closing...the argument for Evolution is always more logical. You guys attempt to disprove by implying that that evolution was shooting for a particular goal, and this is no more true than your atoms shooting for the goal of creating you. There is never a goal, there is only what results, and the result is always extremely improbable at some level. We are talking about millions, billions of years to arrive at where we are today...The argument that life and cells are too complex to exist without a designer still begs the question, if it were TRUE that the cell’s “specified complexity” required design, “How did God’s complexity come to exist without a designer?” The mind of the creator would not only need to store information about how to build a cell, but it would also need to be able to retrieve it, organize it in a meaningful way, and execute its creation. And if we’re talking about the God of the Bible, then his mind also contains countless volumes of complex information, down to how many hairs are on each person’s head. Every book on earth could not contain the knowledge in God’s mind. Also his creation of life and the universe would be flawless and perfect especially concerning his favorite project, man. Instead what we find in nature is the opposite which supports lengthy, evolutionary process, for which we do have plenty of evidence.
Also, there are more problems with the idea of an eternal, immaterial, intelligent being that exists without cause, than there are with the idea that matter exists without cause.



THE PROOF OF EVOLUTION

a reply to: Pachomius

The only think proven in this thread is your actually the obstacle to honest debate.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

The only think proven in this thread is your actually the obstacle to honest debate.

That's the closest we have gotten to a resolution in this exhausting self defeating exercise. And toktaylor delivered an excellent summary of why intelligent design just doesn't stand up to scrutiny the way evolution has. I think this is where we can leave it, I doubt anything is going to change in the next hundred pages.

If you believe the fear of death is the basis for a soul then you never knew what it was to be alive.

originally posted by: Grenade
If you believe the fear of death is the basis for a soul then you never knew what it was to be alive.

That sounds pritty catchy.... But what are you really saying here...

Question for you: WHat is it like to be really alive? You must know something about that.

Fear is a sense that serves a purpose. But what do you know about your soul, does it serve a purpose ?

They want me to try and prove God. They must be senseless out of their mind. The origin of this question does not come from lack of evidence but out of stubornness to agree with the self evident mixed with some evolution hocus pocus.

Proving God would go against my faith in an omnipresent God.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
They want me to try and prove God. They must be senseless out of their mind. The origin of this question does not come from lack of evidence but out of stubornness to agree with the self evident mixed with some evolution hocus pocus.

Proving God would go against my faith in an omnipresent God.

Still no evidence? Just faith.

Like some have faith there is no god.

Please use “that’s not logical argument again”...

Faith
firm belief in something for which there is no proof
www.merriam-webster.com...

a reply to: neutronflux

Still no evidence? Just faith.

Please share if you have any. You can not prove that God did not form our existing universe. Because you dont know what did. There is no science that can disprove the existance of God.

So what the hell is your faith...? It must be based on something fictional because you can not present evidence yourself.
You speak as there is no God... what are your evidence for such a claim..? I bet it is based on faith.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

That's the closest we have gotten to a resolution in this exhausting self defeating exercise. And toktaylor delivered an excellent summary of why intelligent design just doesn't stand up to scrutiny the way evolution has. I think this is where we can leave it, I doubt anything is going to change in the next hundred pages.

Human intelligence came from something intelligent, not something unintelligent.

a reply to: neutronflux

What is this word salad about?

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

stubornness to agree with the self evident

What is self evident is that we need oxygen, water, food, and shelter.

Therefore, A natural religious outlook would tend to be polytheist.

a reply to: pthena

What we really need depends on a situation. We dont only need Oxygen, food cloth and a shelter.

We have to know why we need these things. And what these things do for us. You would also need skills to do moste of the things you need to gather what you need to survive.

The issue we face is when we have all these things and time. Our mind always seak deeper meanings even if we have what we need to keep us alive. We humans have fealings we have thoughts and these skills create a lot of issues for us. And we love to expand on these abilities.

We can write a book about our needs because our needs are limitless. Imagine what would happened if we lost electricity... Or the internet for a year. People would die left and right. Even tough non of them are vital for our survival.

a reply to: cooperton

Once up on a time the intelligence of a rock got dumbed down and that's how neanderthal evolved.

a reply to: spy66

Essentially suggesting we should be thankful for the gift of life, like it or not we are all creations of the universe, if you think otherwise then you haven’t been paying attention. To dismiss consciousness as a random occurrence to me at least is disrespectful, the manifestation of your being is at the very least an attempt for the universe to reflect upon itself, without eyes it’s beauty would be wasted.

originally posted by: pthena

What is self evident is that we need oxygen, water, food, and shelter.

Therefore, A natural religious outlook would tend to be polytheist.

The elements are servants of the King. He proved this by walking on water, calming the storm, moving the boulder, and so on

a reply to: toktaylor

Your post made me think of the most beautiful wisdom around being; God never came to exist.

To prove God would indicate a beginning of God which there isn't.

a reply to: spy66

Imagine what would happened if we lost electricity... Or the internet for a year. People would die left and right. Even tough non of them are vital for our survival.

People probably would die in that case. Even though tens of thousands of years of human life continued before the internet, and Tesla and Edison were not the first humans.

To forgotten skills