Fifth State of Matter Created Aboard ISS

originally posted by: face23785
I'm with everyone else. Fascinating stuff, but these "applications" sound rather vague and are all currently theoretical. What's the practical benefit? How will this stuff "justify the entire expense of the [ISS] program" as the OP put it?

OP mentioned a possible better understanding of dark energy could result from the research. Dark energy is thought to comprise roughly 2/3 of the universe, yet we know little about it. How are we going to specify the benefits of understanding the 2/3 of the universe made of dark energy, until we understand it?

Most people realize that increasing our fundamental understanding of science leads to long term benefits which are difficult to predict. Devices using GPS technology were a 37 billion dollar a year industry in 2017, yet without fundamental research into relativity, the technology never could have been developed. Aside from the financial market size, it's an extremely useful technology which has saved countless men who didn't want to ask for directions from having to ask for directions!


I don't know of anybody who did fundamental relativity research in the 1920s and 1930s who predicted that a future GPS system would be the result. Likewise, it may be equally difficult to predict the future benefits of increasing our fundamental knowledge of science today, but most people seem to realize that increasing our fundamental knowledge of science does lead to benefits.

Survey Finds Broad Public Support for Federal Basic Research Funding

Surveyed individuals in the public were asked, “In your opinion, do government investments in basic scientific research usually pay off in the long run, or are they not worth it?”

In the 2014 survey:
- 71 percent replied “Yes, pay off in the long run.”
- 24 percent replied “No, aren’t worth it.”...

“Support for government funding of research tends to be widespread across the demographic spectrum. Fully 74% of women and 68% of men say that government funding of basic science pays off in the long run; men and women are about equally likely to say that government funding of engineering pays off in the long run (72% each). College graduates tend to express more support for research funding than do those with less formal education. Similarly, younger generations are a bit more likely than older ones to say research funding pays off in the long run, but a majority of all age groups say that government funding of both basic science and engineering research pays off in the long run.”

Even though we couldn't predict the GPS benefit of relativity research, and likewise we can't say what the next "GPS" will be in the future that results from fundamental research done today, most people seem to realize we won't get any fruits from fundamental science research if we never plant the seeds.

a reply to: BASSPLYR
Yes, there are some sharp people in the "Aircraft Projects" forum, if that's what you mean by "aviation forum", though I'm not sure if a ball of plasma qualifies as an "aircraft", but in any case it's too late to move the thread now, even if the mods would allow it, it's run its course.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

You're preaching to the choir bud. I'm well aware that scientific discoveries can lead to all kinds of unexpected benefits.

I'm also well aware that plenty of scientific discoveries end up being little more than curiosities or dead ends. That's fine too. Curiosity is great, and pursuing it is worthwhile. You never know which research will lead to something important.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My question was more to wonder what justifies statements like these from the OP, given that--as you just pointed out and I concur with--we have no idea when a discovery will lead to something major:

It alone may in the future be seen as justifying the entire expense of the program, even the world total of expenditures on EVERY space program. The implications of this to physics cannot be overestimated.

That seems like a lot of hyperbole to me.

So I was wondering if this technology could lead to creating and storing exotic matter and elements such as Ununpentium and even antimatter?

originally posted by: nonnez
So I was wondering if this technology could lead to creating and storing exotic matter and elements such as Ununpentium and even antimatter?

Last I heard, exotic matter is still purely theoretical. There's no evidence it actually exists, is there? Admittedly I haven't read anything on it in a few years.

Why would you want to make ununpentium? What's it used for?

If they could make antimatter in significant quantities, that would indeed be a huge discovery. Our current methods for creating it are so limited that it's essentially useless.

a reply to: face23785

Why would you want to make ununpentium? What's it used for?

Does it really matter why or for what? I am much more interested in the can or can't when it comes to creation, stabilization, and storage.

originally posted by: face23785

That seems like a lot of hyperbole to me.

The very fact that Jim is using hyperbole AT ALL is probably a reason for everyone to sit up and take notice... even if many haven't the slightest idea what the hell it is they're supposed to noticing.

Like the best scientific and UFO-related threads, we need a gentle layman's intro to the basics involved here, otherwise for many, it's like intruding on a secret scientific circle-jerk despite being one of the most important discoveries in recent years/decades.

originally posted by: nonnez
a reply to: face23785

Why would you want to make ununpentium? What's it used for?

Does it really matter why or for what? I am much more interested in the can or can't when it comes to creation, stabilization, and storage.

Well yeah it does matter. It costs a fortune to make any of the manmade elements. I'm fine with making small quantities of it to study, but why would you want to waste all that money making more of it if it has no real uses? The money could be better spent on other things. If studying it leads to discovering some real uses, THEN you might be justified in spending the money to make more of it. Making a lot of it just for the hell of it is asinine.

originally posted by: ConfusedBrit

originally posted by: face23785

That seems like a lot of hyperbole to me.

The very fact that Jim is using hyperbole AT ALL is probably a reason for everyone to sit up and take notice... even if many haven't the slightest idea what the hell it is they're supposed to noticing.

Like the best scientific and UFO-related threads, we need a gentle layman's intro to the basics involved here, otherwise for many, it's like intruding on a secret scientific circle-jerk despite being one of the most important discoveries in recent years/decades.

So how should we start? Perhaps by asking questions, like I did? If he's the ATS demigod of physics, my questions shouldn't be difficult to answer.

a reply to: Baddogma

When all this tech and science is one day used for the good of mankind, for the ability of mankind to achieve spiritual enlightenment rather than physical waste/dependency, gimme a call!
Until then, the satanic cult will continue to control us!

a reply to: face23785

The ats demigod of physics took leave middle of last year and hasn't been back. With his absence the collective IQ of ats dropped about 25 points into the borderline obtuse zone

a reply to: face23785

If they found a way for mankind to make antimatter in abundance the general population would be the last to find out concidering how dangerous that would be. But if you were to store antimatter penning traps would be a good method.

a reply to: face23785

Making a lot of it just for the hell of it is asinine.

Yeah but . . . but . . . but . . . there is the problem . . . I am not asking anyone to actually make it or for funding . . . I just want to know if this makes creating such things and storing them in quantity a possibility with this new discovery. You seem way too eager to pounce.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: face23785

If they found a way for mankind to make antimatter in abundance the general population would be the last to find out concidering how dangerous that would be. But if you were to store antimatter penning traps would be a good method.

Unless the team who figured it out happened to be working under an already secret project, do you really think they'd get everyone on board to keep it a secret? Someone is gonna want their Nobel prize and go public with it.

Just because something becomes physically possible doesn't mean any Joe Schmo can do it in his garage if they announce it to the public. The public has known for 75 years that there's a way to create a fission chain reaction that generates a tremendous explosion. You don't see ordinary people building nukes. Antimatter bombs have the potential to be much more destructive, but, same as nuclear weapons, only if you have the technology and technical expertise to produce one.

I believe if the technology to produce useful quantities of antimatter were discovered, it would most certainly go public, and we'd likely see some international treaties to control the proliferation and use of the technology, just like we have with nuclear technology.

originally posted by: nonnez
a reply to: face23785

Making a lot of it just for the hell of it is asinine.

Yeah but . . . but . . . but . . . there is the problem . . . I am not asking anyone to actually make it or for funding . . . I just want to know if this makes creating such things and storing them in quantity a possibility with this new discovery. You seem way too eager to pounce.

I seem to have misunderstood you then, sorry. It doesn't look like you're gonna get an answer to your question anytime soon, since the details about what this discovery is supposed to do for us have been left intentionally vague.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Yeah.

Got confused with actual integers being an adverb and all!!

That and “macro” vs “quantum”...

@all on ATS, “My post has been corrected by Arbitrageur“

Fourth state of matter is indeed a plasma. The BEC has been correctly described too.

Sorry for being the source of confusion!!



eta: still trying to wrap my poor brain around this! And don’t have a good answer to “cost vs value” except to say, that is how science works at times, “weird experiments, oft overlooked” that can lead to theoretical breakthroughs!

(Or as we said, “slow black world leak” that may or not lead to something... problem doing it this way)

originally posted by: nonnez
So I was wondering if this technology could lead to creating and storing exotic matter and elements such as Ununpentium and even antimatter?

Is there something that would lead you to speculate that it could? I'm not aware of any link at this time and it seems unlikely that ununpenium production would be related since energy is involved, and the Bose-Einstein condensate only exists at the lowest temperatures close to absolute zero (in some sense an absence of kinetic energy), which seems like a fundamental conflict. If some novel way of producing ununpentium in the future is developed near absolute zero, maybe, but this seems very unlikely.

For anti-matter, in theory, on an anti-matter earth, anti-matter scientists could perform the same BEC experiments with anti-matter that our matter scientists perform with matter. In practice, we and our labs aren't made out of anti-matter and it's a difficult substance to work with since it tends to annihilate in contact with matter. So it's not an impossibility but don't expect to see it happen any time soon. Our searches of the universe haven't suggested any "anti-matter Earths" out there; the universe seems to be mostly matter.

originally posted by: face23785
Last I heard, exotic matter is still purely theoretical. There's no evidence it actually exists, is there? Admittedly I haven't read anything on it in a few years.

It still is "theoretical" as far as I know, or perhaps more accurately, "speculative", because a "theory" implies something which is well-tested, and there have been no tests on exotic matter.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
Fourth state of matter is indeed a plasma.

Thank you, you usually have some good information so I'm glad to see we got that straightened out.

originally posted by: face23785
Perhaps I wasn't clear. My question was more to wonder what justifies statements like these from the OP, given that--as you just pointed out and I concur with--we have no idea when a discovery will lead to something major:

It alone may in the future be seen as justifying the entire expense of the program, even the world total of expenditures on EVERY space program. The implications of this to physics cannot be overestimated.

That seems like a lot of hyperbole to me.

If Jim Oberg wants to explain that further, I'd love to hear more, but it does seem he got excited about the research. I'm glad you appreciate the difficulty of predicting the long term results of fundamental science research.

a reply to: Arbitrageur
It's a weird state of matter I've to say. But maybe some advanced civilizations had to opportunity to use this weird matter to their benefits?

Just speculation I know, but still interesting where this is going to lead to in the future..

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: face23785

If they found a way for mankind to make antimatter in abundance the general population would be the last to find out concidering how dangerous that would be. But if you were to store antimatter penning traps would be a good method.

I believe if the technology to produce useful quantities of antimatter were discovered, it would most certainly go public, and we'd likely see some international treaties to control the proliferation and use of the technology, just like we have with nuclear technology.

There was a pretty happening year over a decade ago.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
If Jim Oberg wants to explain that further, I'd love to hear more, but it does seem he got excited about the research. I'm glad you appreciate the difficulty of predicting the long term results of fundamental science research.

That's pretty much all I was getting at. He seems to think this is some groundbreaking, game-changing event. I'd just like to know how, because nothing I've read about it indicates that at all. It's neat, interesting, but at this point, that's all it appears to be. If he knows something we don't, I'd love him to share it.

originally posted by: HalWesten
Scientifically it's a big deal. No question. But it's not going to fix any problems on earth. Dark energy searches, prospecting for sub-surface minerals, all while freedom burns and viri go unresolved.
I love science and space but we have bigger issues to deal with.

If we dumped scientific endeavour every time we had to deal with societal ills, we'd still be shouting "Eureka!" every time we took a bath. I think, as a species, we can do both.