Roswell skeptics. Modern day mythology?

originally posted by: dude1
If its a weak evidence and there are no sufficient reasons to believe , then the "mysteries" have no extraordinary explanations , which leave only the ordinary.
Claiming that there could be other unknown extraordinary explanations without evidence , are the same insufficient reasons to believe.

A mystery having only ordinary possible explanations , is in my eyes unimportant.

We send people to jail regularly over circumstantial evidence. The Roswell Case is full of the kind of circumstantial evidence and corroborated eye witness testimony that would render it valid....at the very least warrant further investigation.

Even if we had an artifact from the crash analyzed to be extra-terrestrial, it still wouldn't definitively prove anything to most people.

originally posted by: NightVision
We send people to jail regularly over circumstantial evidence.

But those cases generally don't have anything to do with trying to establish the existence of something in dispute. Somebody robs a liquor store and the cops find a guy running down the street with just the same amount of money that was stolen. Nobody is saying that liquor stores don't exist, or money. We accept that they do. Not the same with extraterrestrials. Farmer picks up some garbage from his land, they send some Army guys out to pick it up. Somehow wires get crossed (not unheard of in the Army), and somehow they get the idea that the garbage belongs to one of those "flying saucers" that are hot in the news. Later it turns out to be a typical Army SNAFU and they retract the story.

What exactly do you think was proven there? That people are unreliable? That wires get crossed? It sure wasn't that "aliens" crashed. Not by a longshot.

a reply to: dude1

Whether a weak argument is sufficient or not is up to individuals. Still, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And again, "extraordinary" is a subjective concept. Its limit is the bounderies of the conscious "self", hence becomes superfluous when involving multiple individuals.

If its a weak evidence and there are no sufficient reasons to believe , then the "mysteries" have no extraordinary explanations

How is that? Care to develop this argument, I still don't see any link between the argument and the conclusion.

Roswell is filled with UFO lore beginning with Stanton Friedman in 1978. People claim it wasn't a MOGUL balloon flight and they have a valid argument. The program launched many experimental flights in between these recorded official MOGUL balloon trains. One of these simpler experimental balloon flights is what crashed outside of Roswell. I laid it out in my thread:

Roswell Truth

originally posted by: NightVision

We send people to jail regularly over circumstantial evidence. The Roswell Case is full of the kind of circumstantial evidence and corroborated eye witness testimony that would render it valid....at the very least warrant further investigation.

Even if we had an artifact from the crash analyzed to be extra-terrestrial, it still wouldn't definitively prove anything to most people.

If I'm ever on trial for murder, I want the jury packed with ATS members.

Witness testimony - unreliable.

Documents - faked.

Video - photoshop.

Besides, the prosecutor is racist. All of his arguments are invalid. Case closed.

originally posted by: ConspiracyMysteries
Growing up I loved reading about Roswell and have all the books by Stan Friedman. Seen all the stories and documentaries.



Then you have the likes of What Really Happened At Roswell
Kal K. Korff skepticalinquirer.org...
Or other works

books.google.nl... =en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilo9WN9bXpAhURDewKHXhXBec4ChDoATAAegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=roswell%20skeptic&f=false

A good collecting of other research into this so called myth

www.physics.smu.edu...

Which have really challenged my views
Is it widely accepted now that Roswell was nothing more then US coverup of a secret project mogel?

Total myth. All the exciting ufo documentaries created a false narrative that tried hard to create a false narrative but still had one gaping hole. They had Brazle finding weird foil then skipped to modern stories of alien bodies. Except why didn't Brazle see a crashed ufo and bodies?
Turns out what Brazle actually saw was this:

" "large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks."[5] He paid little attention to it but returned on July 4 with his son, wife and daughter to gather up the material.[6] Some accounts have described Brazel as having gathered some of the material earlier, rolling it together and stashing it under some brush.."

People used to say "but the government admitted it was a flying disk!"
Yes they did, in a press release where they said they found a disk and in a telex sent to the FBI they also gave many other facts about the description:

"he disc is hexagonal in shape and was suspended from a ballon [sic] by cable, which ballon [sic] was approximately twenty feet (6 m) in diameter"

"The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been 12 feet [3.5 m] long, [Brazel] felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards [180 m] in diameter. When the debris was gathered up, the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet [1 m] long and 7 or 8 inches [18 or 20 cm] thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches [45 or 50 cm] long and about 8 inches [20 cm] thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds [2 kg]. There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine, and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil. There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts.
Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction. No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.[10]"

en.wikipedia.org...


So the question to journalists who decades later wrote books about the subject is why was all this information left out? Obviously to create a narrative.

Still today it's the same thing. Here is one by Time magazine from 2012.
www.youtube.com...
Brazle finds "strange unearthly foil that wouldn't burn…" then right to alien bodies and cover-ups and a top general getting on a plane.
Wouldn't burn with what? A lighter? Are reporters generally supposed to give details? Again massive amounts of eyewitness details skipped over. All of the ufo stuff is from the 70's and beyond and it only works if you ignore the majority of the early details.

Then there are ridiculous ideas like military and civilians actually handled alien material and were not quarantined for at least 6 months. The area would be closed for years. People actually believed the military needed a civilian mortician who was then sent home that same night. Were they like "wash your hands and go home"?
Did they need someone to determine the cause of death in a crash? On an alien?

Why was the military so concerned? Maybe the secret tech that crashed was related to nuclear weapons and we just had a Russian spy actually be a member of the team of scientists who created the bomb? That's how good the Russians were at spying. So yes they tried to say it was a weather balloon and yes it caused some amount of uproar.

The myth bums me out because I want the ufo field to be taken serious. Unfortunately book writers and then television producers decided to cash in on the expense of the ufo scene.

a reply to: joelr

Right back down the rabbit hole. Then what do you think of the likes of Stan Friedman

I posted this video in op as was first documentary I hd seen which was skeptics led.

Comparing then with documentaries such as


But when I see the the late Stan Friedman and his early publishing’s then his online videos dismissing the project mogel stuff hard to make ones mind up its back and forth

a reply to: IgnorantGod

If there is a claim that there is an extraordinary explanations without anything more , then its just a tale.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
For a long time now, I've thought that the Roswell incident was a result of an experiment by Werner Von Braun and his Paperclip Nazi scientists experimenting off the books at White Sands with V-2 rockets to see if a human body could take the stresses of rocket launch and possible radiation at higher altitudes. And to that end, they "acquired" bodies of various kinds - possibly even prison inmates or the corpses of children -- and blasted them as close to space as they could get.

For me it had to do with trying to figure out what would be so egregious that NASA would want to keep it secret to this day. Nazi experimentation with child corpses done to get our glorious, shiny space program literally off the ground seemed to fit that bill nicely.

Had forgotten this was the time of project paperclip but didn’t the space program. Not start till the 50’s?

a reply to: ConspiracyMysteries

I think the Roswell (equation) has many solutions, quantum understandings based on limited observations and interpretations. There is an exclusion principle at play here.

Lots of bodies.

The many-body problem is a general name for a vast category of physical problems pertaining to the properties of microscopic systems made of many interacting particles. Microscopic here implies that quantum mechanics has to be used to provide an accurate description of the system.

a reply to: UnderKingsPeak

Interesting, to say the least.

I've personally come to the conclusion that something unknown and at least seemingly "otherworldly" happened as Roswell.

Those guys were the cream of the USAF crop, right off WWII, and they don't (or didn't) entrust nuclear weapons to average knuckleheads.

Something beyond MOGUL or test dummies happened and the fact it's still kept pitch black is very, very interesting.

Add the credible (but small) body of evidence over anomalies on the Moon and Mars and it's evident the public is ...er ... being kept like mushrooms, so to speak.

Incidentally, my dad was a Lt Cnl USAF who flew missions over Germany in WWII. He watched 3 glowing orange saucers doing maneuvers over the Nevada desert for 3 hours in 1952. His assessment was they were intelligently controlled (instead of an unknown natural phenomena) and the tech they used was completely unknown and went against any physics of flight he was aware of. Weeks later he saw a huge, orange, structured sphere, larger than "several aircraft carries" move across the ocean, South to North, off the coast of San Fran.

Besides rare personal experiences, It's the personal testimony from trusted individuals that form convictions. I've had both forms of info and I'm pretty ... er convicted! Something really weird is afoot.

a reply to: Baddogma


I'm starting to get weird Google results for some of my searches looking for a starting point.

a knight inne the fief

Squeezed twixt the thighs on a bed of sighs that's the only way to be for a knight like me

Lizard's leg and owlet's wing

Patent US557563A

Friedman managed to get ahold of a lot of flight logs. Whatever the wreckage was a lot of important people flew a lot of miles to meet with each other over it. People who would not have done so if it were a mogul Balloon. Plus the wreckage seemed much too large. It was reportedly large and heavy and required a lot of crates to move.

a reply to: AaarghZombies
Cutting edge physics for 1947. They probably used the same alien technology to make all the quantum observations.

Sometimes you can find keys for classified technology in the arts world, at least the mathematical representation.

Signal to noise for the older technologies pre 1900 is certainly recognizable.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
It was reportedly large and heavy and required a lot of crates to move.

Where did you pick up that information? This is how misinformation is spread and the story goes on and on. It doesn't sound like you're too familiar with the incident. The two people connected directly to the case said the debris was strong and lightweight. The only recorded account we have during the actual incident is a newspaper interview with Mac Brazel in 1947, the firsthand witness. He clearly describes balloon and radar target material in that interview. The next interview is Jesse Marcel over 3 decades later through Stanton Friedman. This wasn't a story until Friedman sensationalized it.

Everyone that has seen the story since it came out in 1978 only had one side to judge. The side Friedman sold to the world. That has been the general belief for decades. When the Air Force came out with The Roswell Report in 1997, the answer is in that report they published. I've done extensive research and laid it out in my thread I linked above. But don't take my word for it, read the report for yourself. The whole thing.

The mistake was made when the Air Force responded that it was a MOGUL flight. It WAS a part if the MOGUL program, but not a full array of balloons, microphones, and equipment that would be over 600 feet and included a return card. It was one of the smaller experimental flights in between the large MOGUL launches. In the report, the Balloon Project Engineer Charles Moore said:

I can think of no other explanation for Roswell than one of our early June service flight balloons

There's your answer. This is the answer that should have been explained to the public. A service (experimental) flight. Backed up with technical drawings, photographs of the time, correspondence, recorded time listing, etc.
It's time this nonsense story is laid to rest.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
Friedman managed to get ahold of a lot of flight logs. Whatever the wreckage was a lot of important people flew a lot of miles to meet with each other over it. People who would not have done so if it were a mogul Balloon. Plus the wreckage seemed much too large. It was reportedly large and heavy and required a lot of crates to move.

Are this logs available somewhere? They could make for a interesting read.
I like Friedman, but at the end almost all of the evidence for the Roswell case comes from testimonies that were taken 30 years after the fact, many of which could not be corroborated -or could be fabrications- or from official sources that contradict the UFO story.

Granted, I'm not totally sold on the "it was a balloon" story (if it was just that, why did they take so long to declassify and explain it?), but when you look at the actual evidence, there's a lack of substance to the crashed saucer and bodies story.
And it is a great story, captivating and endearing, and I want to believe, but at the end of the day, there's not enough.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: NightVision
We send people to jail regularly over circumstantial evidence.

But those cases generally don't have anything to do with trying to establish the existence of something in dispute. Somebody robs a liquor store and the cops find a guy running down the street with just the same amount of money that was stolen. Nobody is saying that liquor stores don't exist, or money. We accept that they do. Not the same with extraterrestrials. Farmer picks up some garbage from his land, they send some Army guys out to pick it up. Somehow wires get crossed (not unheard of in the Army), and somehow they get the idea that the garbage belongs to one of those "flying saucers" that are hot in the news. Later it turns out to be a typical Army SNAFU and they retract the story.

What exactly do you think was proven there? That people are unreliable? That wires get crossed? It sure wasn't that "aliens" crashed. Not by a longshot.

All good points. The argument I want to make in the end, is that there is no proof that will ever be enough. If I give you a piece of a real ET flying saucer, that doesn't prove that aliens have visited earth. It would just mean you have an object and can't prove how it was manufactured here. Understand?

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

The next interview is Jesse Marcel over 3 decades later through Stanton Friedman.

That is potentially a time travel link clue.

They use the balloons as a cover for an earlier technology.

Like the word echo used to describe audio signal phenomena.

Much older technology, like things we don't know about the ionosphere from the 1800's.

originally posted by: ConspiracyMysteries
Had forgotten this was the time of project paperclip but didn’t the space program. Not start till the 50’s?

Started right after WWII when we got a large number of V-2 rockets still intact as well as half of the designers (the other half went to the USSR). The space program was a deal the US government made with Werner Von Braun, who always had a vision of sending folks to the Moon. He'd be pretty much forgiven his war crimes (slavery, murder, etc.) and he'd help us develop intercontinental ballistic missiles and the computer systems to launch and track them. And because it was post-War and not many people wanted to spend the billions needed to develop the missile program, it was decided to create a glorious space program with lofty scientific goals to justify spending all the money.

And a dozen humans actually walked on the Moon several decades ago, if you can imagine it. So it all worked out well, I guess. But it's still not something you want to highlight on your resume.

a reply to: Blue Shift

What’s crazy is that’s perhaps more believable then ufo crash landed. Recently read the book day after Roswell
The majority of the book is an account of Colonel Philip Corso's claims that he was assigned to a secret government program that provided some material recovered from crashed spacecraft to private industry (without saying where the items came from) to reverse engineer them for corporate use.

Corso was a Special Assistant to Lt General Arthur Trudeau, who headed Army Research and Development, and was in charge of the Foreign Technology Desk. In this position, he would take technological artifacts obtained from Russian, German and other foreign sources, and have American companies reverse engineer that technology. The book contends that several aspects of modern technology such as fiber optics and integrated circuits were developed by using information taken from the craft.

Colonel Corso also claimed the world was "at war" with extraterrestrials and that the Strategic Defense Initiative project was part of that campaign that was successfully concluded in Earth's favour.

The book concludes with reproduction of information about Project Horizon, a 1950s US Army plan for bases on the moon.
Pdf of the book

epdf.pub...

But the bit about the Cold War being a front for USA and ussr to build up army and spend billions on weapon developments to deter aliens from invading.