Roswell skeptics. Modern day mythology?

Growing up I loved reading about Roswell and have all the books by Stan Friedman. Seen all the stories and documentaries.

But recently came across this

And honestly it raises some very good points that debunk a lot of what I been lead to believe over the years about the Roswell crash.

Then you have the likes of What Really Happened At Roswell
Kal K. Korff skepticalinquirer.org...
Or other works

books.google.nl... =en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilo9WN9bXpAhURDewKHXhXBec4ChDoATAAegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=roswell%20skeptic&f=false

A good collecting of other research into this so called myth

www.physics.smu.edu...

Which have really challenged my views
Is it widely accepted now that Roswell was nothing more then US coverup of a secret project mogel?

a reply to: [post=25172161]ConspiracyMysteries[/post

The debris included some parchmentlike stuff and sticklike items. Some purplish symbols were seen on some of the pieces. Pflock attributed most, if not all, of this wreckage to an NYU balloon train flown as part of Project Mogul. Shortly after this collection of debris was found, the wreckage of the spaceship and three dead crew were found, either by wider search or independent discovery.

The presence of "alien hieroglyphs" on the wreckage is a historical fact. The only problem is that they weren't alien.




Alien bodies are found.

(1980) The archaeologists who found the wrecked saucer also found alien bodies. They were humanoid and about 4 feet tall. The military search party arrived shortly after, expecting to find an airplane crash.
(1988) The military searchers conducted an aerial search and located four alien bodies about 2 miles east of the crash site. They were small humanoids.
(1991) On July 8, aerial searching located four alien bodies about 2 miles southeast. They were humanoid and about 4 feet tall.
(1992) On July 8, aerial searching located four alien bodies about 2 miles southeast. They were encased in some kind of escape capsule.
(1994) The archaeologists found the remains of the spaceship and four alien bodies. The aliens were humanoid and about 4 feet tall.
(1994b) The bodies of three dead aliens were found with the wreckage of their ship
The Wreckage and Bodies are Removed

(1980) The military party removed all the wreckage and bodies and cleaned up all traces of the crash. They ordered all witnesses to keep quiet about it.
(1988) A special scientific team removed the bodies and the wreckage was sent to several different places for study.
(1991) The military party collected the wreckage and bodies and cleaned up all traces of the crash. Bodies and wreckage were taken to Roswell Army Air Field.
(1992) The military party collected the wreckage and bodies and cleaned up all traces of the crash. Bodies and wreckage were taken to Roswell Army Air Field. Witnesses were told to keep quiet and were threatened with reprisal if they revealed anything.
(1994) The military party collected the wreckage and bodies and cleaned up all traces of the crash. Bodies and wreckage were taken to Roswell Army Air Field. Witnesses were told to keep quiet and were threatened with reprisal if they revealed anything.
(1994b) Major Jesse Marcel took the balloon wreckage back to RAAF. The military then cordoned off the debris area on the ranch and removed all debris and wreckage. They cleared the site completely. Witnesses were ordered to keep silent and were threatened with reprisal if they did not.

The base PR officer at Roswell Army Air Field issues a press release.


(1980) The base PR officer issued a press release about the flying disk wreckage that had been recovered. It may have been an attempt to divert attention from the San Augustin crash site.
(1988) A cover story ascribed the wreckage to a research balloon.
(1991) The commander of the 509th Bomb Group wanted the local folks to know what was happening, so the base PR officer issued a press release which announced the recovery of flying disk wreckage.
(1992) The base PR officer issued a press release about the flying disk wreckage that had been recovered. Better security would have prevented the issuance of the release.
(1994) The base PR officer issued a press release announcing the recovery of flying saucer debris.
(1994b) As ordered by base commander Blanchard, the base PR officer put out a press release announcing discovery of the wreckage of a flying disk.

a reply to: ConspiracyMysteries

The wreckage is flown out for analysis

(1980) The wreckage was sent to "higher headquarters."
(1988) The wreckage was sent to several locations for study.
(1991) The wreckage was sent to several locations for study. One of those locations was the base in Fort Worth, Texas.
(1992) The wreckage was sent to several locations for study. One of those locations was the base in Fort Worth, Texas.
(1994) The wreckage was sent to several locations for study. One of those locations was the base in Fort Worth, Texas.
(1994b) The bodies and some of the wreckage were taken first to the RAAF hospital. They were later flown to other locations.

The First Press Release is Repudiated

(1980) Within hours, the first press release was repudiated by General Ramey in Fort Worth. He said in an interview that the wreckage was that of a weather balloon.
(1988) A cover story was released describing the wreckage as pieces of a weather balloon.
(1991) Within hours, the first press release was repudiated by General Ramey in Fort Worth. He said in an interview that the wreckage was that of a weather balloon.
(1992) Within hours, the first press release was repudiated by General Ramey in Fort Worth. He said in an interview that the wreckage was that of a radar reflector and weather balloon.
(1994) Within hours, the first press release was repudiated by General Ramey in Fort Worth. He said in an interview that the wreckage was that of a weather balloon.
(1994b) To preserve secrecy around the flying disk recovery, SAC orders General Ramey to put out the cover story that the wreckage is really balloon debris. This was also part of an effort to deflect attention from Project Mogul. This means that there were two cover stories: one concealing Project Mogul and another covering up the discovery of flying disk remains.

Funny Business with the Wreckage

(1980) No claims of trickery regarding the wreckage.
(1988) No claims of trickery regarding the wreckage.
(1991) The wreckage that reporters saw in Gen. Ramey's office was fake balloon wreckage substituted for the real flying disk wreckage.
(1992) The wreckage that reporters saw in Gen. Ramey's office was fake balloon wreckage substituted for the real flying disk wreckage.
(1994) The wreckage that reporters saw in Gen. Ramey's office was fake balloon wreckage substituted for the real flying disk wreckage.
(1994b) No mention of a wreckage switch. The cover story is described as covering for Project Mogul.

Notice the appearance in 1991 of the idea of wreckage substitution. This idea disappears as Project Mogul works its way into the story.

Summary

The story has morphed and changed over the years. Later versions contain details not present in the 1980 version. There are a lot more details that make interesting reading, but we can't easily fit them in here.

The switching of the wreckage in Gen. Ramey's office is part of an overall story of a massive government cover-up which includes all sorts of ruses for concealing the truth. This, in fact, makes the alien wreckage story into a non-falsifiable hypothesis. Any evidence or testimony that would show that the events as described did not happen is immediately attributed to the cover-up. Nothing can prove the story false; the cover-up device deals with all unfavorable evidence. The switching of the wreckage is an essential part of the cover-up; if the wreckage was not switched, it really was part of a balloon-borne radar reflector and was not alien.

Most, if not all, of the "evidence" concerning the recovery of saucer wreckage and alien bodies comes from one person - the late Frank J. Kaufmann. His testimony provided the stories that spawned several books about the Roswell incident. Kaufmann passed away

a reply to: ConspiracyMysteries

Roswell was nothing more then US coverup of a secret project mogel?

Based on the available witness testimony, I would say no, Roswell was not a cover up of Project Mogul (ask yourself, Marcel would probably have been aware of Mogul and he states it was not a balloon), so it was a cover up for something else, of which we may never know, which in itself is strange, because usually cover-ups do eventually emerge, especially through the course of time.

This much is sure, whatever did happen in Roswell in 1947 was a strange occurrence.

One can say this of the entire field of UfOlogy being about aliens (and not just unidentified object by the onlooker).

Or ANY conspiracy theory , the entire abovetopsecret site.

originally posted by: dude1
One can say this of the entire field of UfOlogy being about aliens (and not just unidentified object by the onlooker).

Or ANY conspiracy theory , the entire abovetopsecret site.

False, no direct evidence links Unidentified Aerial Vehicles (UAP) to aliens. Yes, strange craft have been getting reported for hundreds of years, possibly even longer, and despite hints as to what, or who, it might be, there is no direct evidence.

strange craft

Is the interpretation , it was just unidentified.

The point is , its a conspiracy theory , were people believe despite no good justification , and mostly because of that.

Its a myth , a yarn , entertainment.

originally posted by: ConspiracyMysteries
a reply to: [post=25172161]ConspiracyMysteries[/post

The presence of "alien hieroglyphs" on the wreckage is a historical fact. The only problem is that they weren't alien.

the alleged hieroglyphs were probably printed on adhesive tape (which was probably originally used as gift wrapping) and were nothing but fantasy shapes. have seen this in a documentary.

a reply to: dude1

Its a myth , a yarn , entertainment.

It appears that way on the surface, maybe even deliberately so, however anyone that's looked at the subject in depth, even the skeptics, would probably have to admit, there's a genuine mystery here

originally posted by: oloufo

originally posted by: ConspiracyMysteries
a reply to: [post=25172161]ConspiracyMysteries[/post

The presence of "alien hieroglyphs" on the wreckage is a historical fact. The only problem is that they weren't alien.

the alleged hieroglyphs were probably printed on adhesive tape (which was probably originally used as gift wrapping) and were nothing but fantasy shapes. have seen this in a documentary.

Indeed the documentary you speak of is the one in the OP

genuine mystery of some detail that can have no implication like , have a wide and deep coverup to this day or aliens involvement or anything that could have relevance today.
What did Abraham Lincoln eat prior to the Gettysburg Address may be a mystery , but not one of any implication or relevance today (its as important as what a random peasant eat in York in 1423).

a reply to: dude1

I would rather be more interested in your arguments that convinced you this was an appropriate comparison.

As a counter argument, your comparison holds no revelant ties between these situations. Your only point of comparison is "mystery", which is more a connotation in relation with the latter situation than in regards to the former.

Furthermore, the difference between the two objects compared (unknown aircrafts in perspective to multiple witnesses from around the world and a meal eaten by a famous individual on a specific day) also weaken the argument you try to back-up.

Basically, your comparison only tells that one can take UFOs and a meal that a famous personality has eaten on a specific day on the same level in regards to the concept of "mystery".

Its the "unimportant mystery" that is compared.
multiple witnesses from around the world have seen different things , just like multiple people have eaten unimportant meals. Even multiple witnesses of kings in feasts is of similar unimportance.

Are those multiple witnesses from around the world of past sightings relevant today ? Do any have new sightings of those ?

The answer is obviously no.

The case for Roswell by Gazrok - Link

TheGut's conversion thread - Link

The primary researcher has his doubts
Kevin Randle , The Decline of Roswell - Link1 , Link2

Kevin has many blog posts about Mogul - Link1 , Link2 , Link3 , Link4 , and many more if you search .
Kevin bemoans the fact many skeptics take the easy explanation(Mogul) and move on, like they do on so many cases. Not really interested in the truth.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
The case for Roswell by Gazrok - Link

TheGut's conversion thread - Link

The primary researcher has his doubts
Kevin Randle , The Decline of Roswell - Link1 , Link2

Kevin has many blog posts about Mogul - Link1 , Link2 , Link3 , Link4 , and many more if you search .
Kevin bemoans the fact many skeptics take the easy explanation(Mogul) and move on, like they do on so many cases. Not really interested in the truth.

Thank you so much for the links, some good reading to counter some of the remakes from documentary.

For a long time now, I've thought that the Roswell incident was a result of an experiment by Werner Von Braun and his Paperclip Nazi scientists experimenting off the books at White Sands with V-2 rockets to see if a human body could take the stresses of rocket launch and possible radiation at higher altitudes. And to that end, they "acquired" bodies of various kinds - possibly even prison inmates or the corpses of children -- and blasted them as close to space as they could get.

For me it had to do with trying to figure out what would be so egregious that NASA would want to keep it secret to this day. Nazi experimentation with child corpses done to get our glorious, shiny space program literally off the ground seemed to fit that bill nicely.

a reply to: dude1

The "unimportant mystery" is your comparison of your opinion on both situations. Therefore, it is irrevelant in an argument.

For the UFO, the argument of witnesses testimonies being a weak evidence is valid, since it appeals to generality and subjectivity.

There's no sufficient reasons to believe someone based on his/her saying, nor a video posted on internet with nowadays editing technologies.

But it isn't, in itself, evidence there's no "mysteries" in the sky, the ground or the seas.

If its a weak evidence and there are no sufficient reasons to believe , then the "mysteries" have no extraordinary explanations , which leave only the ordinary.
Claiming that there could be other unknown extraordinary explanations without evidence , are the same insufficient reasons to believe.

A mystery having only ordinary possible explanations , is in my eyes unimportant.

Been on every side of this argument since I was 12.
I’m 52 now.
I’ve read every major “Roswell UFO “ book that has been published

MyGrandfather who was a bomber pilot in the 509th in 1947.
He finally retired in 1975 after joining up in 1942.
From the time I was 12 years to about 46 years old, I bugged him for info.
He ALWAYS said the same thing . “There’s nothing to it, it’s all Hooey”
Yes he used to say Hooey.
When I was 14 he was a 59 year old retired Lt Col and that’s about the time
he told me about MOGUL , He said that’s what Roswell was.
Jump ahead 21 years of questions answered with Hooey;
In 2014 his health was failing but his faculties were at full sail,
I asked him one last time.
“Have aliens visited us AND were they at Roswell ? “

My brother who was skeptical of UFOs
was with me and listened for his usual answer.
Except this time he didn’t say “It’s All Hooey” He said
Do you really want to know ? That got both of our attention.
We said yes ! emphatically.
He looked as solemn as a funeral and nodded a clear “Yes”.
I was floored. He wouldn’t say anymore.He really didn’t even say it.
Just a nod.That’s all I got. But i’m very satisfied with it the way it unfolded
There was and still is certain peace in my Heart after that nod.
He was the coolest most down to earth man I ever knew.

My grandfather is wiki searchable
He was the pilot that found the Kee-Bird crew in Greenland
and the pilot involved in a crazy broken arrow Hydrogen Bomb incident
over Albuquerque.

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum

This much is sure, whatever did happen in Roswell in 1947 was a strange occurrence.

Well, strange for a few days until completely forgotten about for 30 years until Stan dug up its grave in the late-70s after speaking to Jesse Marcel who, of course, made no mention at all of alien bodies. It wasn't even a matter of interest to Project Blue Book or its two predecessors.

Forget all the glamorous claims that were constructed from the late-70s onwards; the answers to Roswell, as with most cases, lie at the very BEGINNING. What made Roswell so peculiar was that it occurred slam-bang in the middle of the "Flying Saucer" craze that was sweeping America after Kenneth Arnold's sighting a few weeks earlier, and attendant cash rewards for anyone managing to capture one of these buggers... Cue Matt Brazel with dollars in his eyes as he dragged his scrawny ass over to that brush where he'd previously swept a load of sticks and foil he'd found in a field on 14th June 1947 (ten days BEFORE Arnold's sighting).

The important point is that in 1947, nobody (not even the press) discussed the notion of extraterrestrial involvement, not even Arnold himself who, like the USAF, was concerned about Cold War vehicles. Roswell was a "flying saucer" incident, but not in the way that we understand the term today, and not at the time until the ET notion infamously raised its head a year later, but not in relation to Roswell itself.

Which is why the long-rumoured existence of Jesse Marcel's 1947 "diaries" may be the only way to confirm that anybody was looking at this as an ET-related affair in 1947.

But alas, the diaries may be a myth, too.