The Pandemic's Devastation of the World Economy

a reply to: infolurker

There is truth in what you say!

However, the US is largely still locked down.
And I heard somewhere here that some state may be lockdown until September.
And, it's not just the economic horrors that affect countries that lockdown....it is social, emotional and physical.

ETA
True though, this is the thread I started about the economic mess.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

If they are locked down until September.. That really is big trouble with regards to everything from immune systems to economics to mental health.

Even just using an average of $2,400 in stimulus payments per household though.. I really think we could rapidly deploy the very tools that would help dramatically. ETA: Of course, that would require those households/individuals to be in a position to do so, as well as see the value, and then actually do it.

Like I said though, one issue with that is if its done in large enough numbers to make a meaningful widespread difference, it would require some of the larger players in the industries involved to meet that need knowing that they might hurt longterm business interests.

That used to be a "thing" with products Made in America (many would last forever), but not so much any more..

Got this email from Avaaz a few days ago asking for donations to help the places with food shortages. I wont include the pic, it's basically just an Indian women holding a child.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words -- but this one left me speechless.

A hungry mother in India, baby in her arms, bursts into tears after queuing for food -- only for it to run out before she could get any.

Now the UN is warning the world is on the brink of a famine of ‘biblical proportions’ with a QUARTER OF A BILLION people, like this young mum, staring starvation in the face!

Brave aid workers are working around the clock to fight this ‘hunger pandemic’, doing all they can to feed hungry, desperate children, and fight the virus. But they’re working on a shoestring, and they need our help!

Hunger, not disease, could emerge as the biggest killer in this crisis. All over the world, families are struggling to feed their kids – not just in the poorest countries, but places like South Africa, India and Brazil!

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Sweden had no lockdown but its economy is expected to suffer just as badly as its European neighbors

www.cnbc.com...

Sweden did have a lockdown, it was just much less strict, they only made the highest risk groups self-isolate. If that CNBC article is at all true (I have doubts) it's because they're part of the EU and all their neighbors have destroyed their economies. In any case, they are in a better position than most other nations because they didn't shut down most of their economy and cause massive numbers of people to become unemployed. The article mentioned Sweden could see unemployment reach 8.8% in 2020, however earlier tonight on the news they said unemployment in the U.S. could reach up to 25%, which is worse than the great depression.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

As I just said in another thread... I don't understand how everyone couldn't jhave enough money to live on for the rest of their live's... with digital currency... because digital currency can never die out... the banks in theory could give everyone enough digital currency to live on, it doesn't cost anything to send digital currency to everyone on the planet!

If only the greedy banksters and Governments could see this, although I do guess that the Banksters do see this but will not do anything about it.

In theory none of us need to work ever again (unless we really wanted to) if these damn banksters would just send this digital currency to everyone... as i say it won't cost anything... just a few strokes of the keyboard!

Money is a friggin illusion... only came about to keep people down... to keep people stressed about never having anough.

a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

Money is only worth something if it is backed by something of value. If it was as easy as you say, then anyone could use their printer to print up whatever they want and call it legal tender.

It goes back to the most basic economics of trade.

If I raise chickens and need boots but Joe is a scribe and needs a chicken, he and I are at an impasse in a direct barter system. His skills are of real value just like my chicken, but I don't need his skills, so we have no trade. Either Joe goes through an elaborate set of trades until he can acquire boots to get my chicken with, or we come up with a way to measure the worth of his scribe skills that translates into something I then take that worth into my own hands to go to someone who has boots and use that stored worth to get the boots.

That's where currency comes in. Joe might give me so many shells in trade for the chicken, but that's really representing his services as a scribe and their value. Because everyone agrees the shells represent the value of goods and services, I can trade those shells to someone for their boots, and then that person can use the shells again for something else they need ... because maybe they don't need a chicken.

Just printing money with no basis of value also removes the work incentive. That's why it's a problem that the current rounds of stimulus are actually paying people more than what they made to work. It has become more valuable for them to sit at home and do nothing than to go and produce goods and services of value -- that's your economy. If you simply fill bank accounts forever for nothing, then who will go and work and produce things of value for that valueless cash to buy?

Why would you? Most people only work now because they have to in order to survive on the money they get paid.

a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

You should look up the word 'inflation'. When you're done with that look up the phrase 'hyper inflation'. That should answer your question on why you don't just keep cranking out currency.

a reply to: ketsuko

We should really be living in the times of star trek by now... maybe not the clothes the actors wore but the times of no need for money.

had a couple cousins try to tell me we need to stay locked down for months more...

I asked them why do they hate nations needing the food we export to stay out of famine, they aren't talking to me right now, instead they are waving the Obama rule of law talking points about Flynn.

originally posted by: CrazeeWorld777
a reply to: ketsuko

We should really be living in the times of star trek by now... maybe not the clothes the actors wore but the times of no need for money.

Even Star Trek never adequately answered the question of why people would work if they could just make more or less whatever they wanted when they wanted it. Sure, some people would do things as a hobby, but they always showed a massive, functional economy in Trek without explaining why people would bother doing some of the things they showed as being done.

a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

In theory none of us need to work ever again (unless we really wanted to) if these damn banksters would just send this digital currency to everyone... as i say it won't cost anything... just a few strokes of the keyboard!

If you came into my store [now out of business] and offered to purchase an item with digital currency; I'd laugh in your face and tell you to GTFO of here.

You can't even buy a bicycle chain from Amazon with bitcoin.

a reply to: ketsuko

Completely agreed about currency.

However, examining a paradigm that exists in a world like Star Trek through the lens of what we have now is probably an irreparably flawed premise from either direction.

In a sense, asking "well, if people dont have to work to prevent their demise, why would they do anything at all?" is a valid question. But, I think it eschews some critical, foundational aspects of our species.

Id say that, percentage wise, we would probably see about the same amount of lazy folks as we do now. The difference would be that it is a percentage of a much, much larger number. Meaning, the raw number of "do-nothings" would increase, but so would the raw number of "do-somethings," and they would have the tools to make the tools to actually do something.

Of course, that would be if we just dropped replicator technology on the market. Not exactly reasonable..

The tools we do have are significantly more discerning in those respects, and in my opinion, a superior alternative to any existing social safety nets based on currency and dependence. Beyond that, those that gain self-sufficiency currently tend to have much different results and outlooks than the fears that have been inculcated by welfare states, scarcity paradigms, and Cloward-Piven type strategies.

In many ways, its a philosophical discussion. But, when there are forces in play that are making massive, undeniable headway in openly making the general public into modern slaves and serfs.. I think it makes the discussion significantly less academic.

In that situation, it becomes about which world we would like to build; one marked by dependence and subjugation or one marked by the tools that deliver self-determination.

Im really not sure we are in a position to dance around the issue anymore.. One or the other is going to happen. ETA: I could certainly be wrong on this point, but current events have shown me that "they" are not only willing to make *big* moves in the direction of establishing a modern feudal state.. They can make it happen through media alone. The only "new" part about any of this is the efficacy of the manipulation, and given the time frame of Agenda 21, we should probably look into it..

A simple question would be...why would you allow the destruction of your economy, no matter what threat you were facing? In reality, the only true threats that could actually compromise a nation's economy is nuclear war or a massive natural catastrophe (not viral) that had the potential to completely decimate the physical and electrical infrastructure, but of course, we are not talking about a single nation, we are discussing mostly developed western nations that have purposefully allowed their economies to reduce by a factor of great magnitude. They have allowed this not in isolation but as an agreed agenda...why?

It seems in economical terms that they have sought to control things as a level playing field, where there is no overall winner, and how could there possibly be one when your trading partners are in recession and can't actually trade with you? You're still going to be hit. This hints that it has been a deliberate ploy, which when you think about how societies are going to emerge from this, all wearing the same clothing, you can can easily intuit the machination of it all. Remember, they are seeking to change societal paradigms to an industry of their choosing and vision, and they do not care who or how anyone suffers or struggles.

They themselves won't struggle. They won't allow themselves to be subjected to the same hardships you or I will face. They don't want to destroy society (that is something they fear), they want to change it to something that they want. They want most people to be dependent upon their decisions, their diktats. Basically, through this event and others that will follow, they want us to emerge needing to be constantly sucking at their teat. Independence and self-reliance is as dirty a word as individuality, and the fact that each and everyone of you are actually sovereign over your own mind and body is something they are wanting to negate. The more dependent you are on 'them' and what 'they' will provide for you, the more they will own and control you. They will do with you as they please befitting their whims...or so they hope.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Well, there were things like secretaries, for example, in Star Trek. I can get people doing things like having vineyards or restaurants because they like to cook or take pride in producing the best grapes and wine, but being a secretary? Who does that as a hobby? Who would do that kind of thing in Trekian economy? I'm not sold on the idea that there are people who want to secretary that badly.

a reply to: ketsuko

Lol..

Pragmatically, I think we would see the total dissolution of entire job markets, but also the massive growth of others and the emergence of new ones. Its why I was always so wary and cautious about releasing what I created.

That said, I do know a couple people that genuinely enjoy secretary type work.. As well as some that genuinely enjoy being something like a waiter/waitress. I kinda think theyre crazy, but glass houses and stones and all that.

Of course, really aiming for a Trekian economy might not be the best way to go about it. Using it as inspiration.. sure.. but not much beyond that.

Perhaps my perspective on it is a bit different too. As someone who was thrust into a "do-nothing" state of existence.. Its literally all I want to "do-something." Which is why I started on the work I did all those years ago. But.. It eventually came to a position where I needed to focus on maintaining the very basics and everything else came to a screeching halt. Im still chipping away at it though.

Whittling it down to a super limited statement; boredom and the innate need for exploration may be just as effective of a motivator as survival, depending on the context of perspective instilled by the "system."

a reply to: olaru12

Why bitcoin?

Just use our credit and debit cards as we do now or transfer via the net/phone. No bitcoin needed. That's what I meant by digital currency... the cash shows in your account but you don't actually need to take cash out to buy something.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I agree with what you say.

I think people will still find the 'want' to go out and do something, especially if there were no debts to pay. Imagine being able to study a doctorate for example for free and just because you wanted to, to be able to have that expertise? In a star trek scenario being or knowing about the body would come in very handy and then there would be other people who have skills that you don't have and could help you out in a situation. Pretty much like today but without the need for cash.

There are jobs abroad where you can offer to do work for board, you go on exchange programs for the same. This shows me that the star trek scenario can work.

a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

I have to confess that I quite enjoy filing.

Unfortunately, a lot of paperwork is being phased out but books, vinyl, cds. ....anything really.
Nice and tidy and in the correct place.


Sorry.

a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

I would honestly argue that currency is an incredibly useful thing. Digital, cash, whatever..

However, it is a representative "token" of work, goods, or services. With direct transactions, we can just cut out the currency middleman. If I work for you, you help me out with something in return.

But, how do we extend this to indirect transactions or transactions over time? Thats where currency comes into play. We have essentially a "record" of services, work, or goods that we can then use to exchange for services, work, or goods in a transaction where we never meet the other party.. frequently never to do business with them again.

So, I see it as a bit of a red herring. Its not the representative token thats the issue itself, but the disconnect from what that token represents.

Once we determine that, the discussion moves to the actual tools, goods, services, etc. that have actual Real World Value and currency just falls in line.

a reply to: ketsuko
what you have described is how money came about. Money is now in existence and it's access to the mass is not equitable. Too much is being hoarded by a few whilst the majority has little or none. Therefore the current mad-made system is clearly flawed. The last few months has clearly revealed that. Entertainers and sportsmen earn an insane amount of money for services which are not needed whilst health workers are paid scrap. All the so called "essential" workers are persons paid the least. Whilst people were out of work and food, a few were merely thinking about the value of stock and investments. Things which are of no value to the continuation of life.