Covid-19 may be killing far more than reported.

Ok, so we help the vulnerable without government involvement. What does that look like? I feel as if I am surrounded by selfish morons, who am I supposed to trust to help me out if I am unable to risk going out into public? There are far too many people who need help to get them IMMEDIATE assistance without some sort of organization. A grass-roots vulnerable-persons community assistance taskforce COULD work in SOME communities. However, if we were to stop the stay-at-home orders tomorrow and force the vulnerable to shelter-in-place indefinitely, I doubt that neighbors and families or other volunteers could meet the needs of the entire population that would be impacted.

a reply to: seattlerat

The problem arises when you ask the government for help because the government doesn't cater to the individual. It caters to the whole.

So a one-size-fits-all approach is what we're seeing.

It plays to the weakest, dumbest, moronic in our society.

I know this to be true, I worked in the government for over 20 years.

a reply to: seattlerat

I say meet basic needs through technology, and then go from there. The tools to do so can be leveraged in incredibly creative ways, if designed with that in mind.

Gotta start somewhere with it.. Dont think currency is the answer.

I do agree that relying on the surrounding community can be.. disappointing. Especially with any long term, severe issues. Temporary stuff isnt too tricky to meet, many are willing to help with that. Long term care is different..

Most government programs are quite well setup to foster dependence directly, on top of it. Which is why Im damn hesitant about everything from UBI to these continued stimulus checks because of lockdowns.

I think a lot of the excess deaths can be explained by these issues though. Everything from medical care not being sought (or difficult to find) to stress.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

originally posted by: SaturnFX
And the second bit of with vs of matters not...its not differentiating cause of death, only showing all death is on a mega spike across the board

This is true, the argument about rigged numbers doesn't really apply to these charts because they're showing total weekly deaths. The spike in the charts starts around mid March which matches with the spike of Covid-19 deaths, however it's also around the same time most nations started going into strict lockdowns. What I would really like to see is a chart overlaying the Covid-19 deaths so we can see how much of the spike can be attributed to Covid-19.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Anyhow, take the normal death rate of any year, add in the coronavirus reported deaths, and you are still 50-60% less than the gap...this means either there is a war going on and people are being shot left and right, or covid is far more deadly than the government is letting on (or just not able to test post-mort).

If I understand what you're saying correctly, they basically did what I just said and they found that Covid-19 deaths only account for about half of the spike, so they concluded the death numbers for Covid-19 must be under-reported. I would suggest a much more obvious explanation, which is we are facing a war-like scenario economically. We're seeing economic figures on par with the great recession all around the world and a big rise in depression due to millions of jobs being lost and increased isolation. We've been arguing whether the cure is worse than the disease, well it seems to be about 50/50 based on these figures, assuming the death numbers for Covid-19 aren't be exaggerated, which they most likely are.

The only reason it is great depression like is because the Red state senators refuse to pay out the unemployment. With the $1200 per person stimulus payment and $600 a week added to unemployment most people should be much better off than they were in the great depression and some better off than they were before the crisis.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Outstanding thread, S&F! It’s nice to actually see a post that has graphs, good sources and that. Things that make ya go hmmm. If these numbers are indeed accurate, there may be a totally different conspiracy building under our very noses. Of course, like you stated, the peanut gallery will be totally against you, because you are posting something contradictory to their beliefs and what is popular. There will always be haters. There will be thinkers. You are definitely the latter.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Once states come out of quarantine history, will repeat itself, until herd immunity, hope not... Or a vaccine. All you need is a 3 digit IQ to figure that out.

BOOM! Funeral Directors EXPOSE Death Certificate Frauds Behind CV Death

youtu.be...



I'll say a lot less.

originally posted by: jrod
a reply to: SRPrime

That is your uneducated opinion....of course no sources to back your claims. Anecdotal testimonies are not a source.

FYI brain tumor surgery is not 'elective'. People were not dying at a higher rate because they could not get treatment.

Yes it is. My wife had a Hemangioblastoma with mass effect on the Medula and was told the surgery was elective. As in NOT REQUIRED, but Suggested. The second one they took a wait and see approach, they said they'd monitor growth and remove it if it got particularly dangerous. 8 months later in grew 3 centimetres and the surgery team at the Moffit Cancer Research Center recommend surgery, again Elective; as in NOT REQUIRED, but suggested. Again, hospitals were not performing these critical surgeries.

Nothing about that opinion was uneducated. In fact; it's quite the opposite.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Here, let me source you.

The name "elective" might imply that this type of surgery is optional, but that's not always the case. An elective procedure is simply one that is planned in advance, rather than one that's done in an emergency situation.

Elective Surgery

John Hopkins Types of Surgery

Elective Surgeries Set To Resume

Okay, Kiddo?

They were only doing emergency surgery.

Doesn't take rocket science to know that when you stop elective surgeries; people will die at home waiting for when they can have that surgery.

You're also not going to get media coverage, as the person is likely to have their cause of death listed from the actual cause of death, and not the simple fact that they couldn't have the surgery that would have avoided that cause of death.

Again -- this is all common sense.

Wise answer. I see the point of OP’s question but I think the points you made are likely valid. Suicides and violent domestic issues and crimes too. That’s been my concern all along with the lockdown so tight and long - I know two ppl personally who almost died (confirmed medically) bc they were discharged from the hospital (person 1) and sent home from the ER when they should have been admitted (person 2) due to CV-19 concerns (keeping beds open). Both later had to indeed be re-admitted and admitted, respectively, and almost when it was too late. Treatments were also more intensive and outcome more grim than if they were never released too soon. I’ve also heard and read of several suicides from depression, fear, and financial woes. I think this all was a big part of what the President meant by the cure can’t be worse than the disease. I don’t think he was just talking economically. a reply to: Zcustosmorum

originally posted by: SaturnFX
So, using data and facts, it appears there are far, far more deaths going on around the states (and world) than is being attributed to the virus.

A graph demonstrates the typical mortality rate on any given year, and the highlighted bar is this year soo far.

Now, these are just all deaths, coronavirus, cancer, car accidents, etc. Something happened this year that has spiked the numbers up absurdly high in deaths.

How reported coronavirus deaths compare with deaths above normal
Numbers are from March 8 to April 11, 2020.
AREA PCT. OF NORMAL EXCESS DEATHS − REPORTED COVID-19 DEATHS = GAP
New York City 325% 11,900 − 10,261 = 1,700
New Jersey 172% 5,200 − 2,183 = 3,000
New York (excluding N.Y.C.) 142% 4,200 − 2,425 = 1,700
Michigan 121% 2,000 − 1,391 = 600
Illinois 113% 1,400 − 682 = 700
Massachusetts 120% 1,200 − 686 = 500
Maryland 115% 700 − 207 = 500
Colorado 116% 600 − 274 = 300

So even if you believe they are inflating the numbers with any given death must be coronavirus, how then can you explain just soo damn many deaths regardless of cause. Why is places like New Jersey peaking at nearly double the normal rate?

Anyhow, take the normal death rate of any year, add in the coronavirus reported deaths, and you are still 50-60% less than the gap...this means either there is a war going on and people are being shot left and right, or covid is far more deadly than the government is letting on (or just not able to test post-mort).

I know its popular around these parts to dismiss it because some doctor somewhere said everything is fine

Ya know, for a board who is endlessly going on about how the gubment is trying to kill them for population control or something, you sure look the other way when actual real potentials come up for some meaty conspiracys.

Anyhow, discuss amongst yourselves.
Source
Source 2

Or more than likely, far less...

Ia reply to: SaturnFX

Look at all the people that don’t even understand your very basic OP.

Lots of people are dead. Maybe from Covid maybe NOT, but it is more than normal.
Something is going on.


Then people scream, “but they are changing all deaths to Covid.” Maybe some people should use this time off for reading comprehension classes. Also if anyone has a problem with sources, they should do a little research and look it up themselves. Maybe they will be enlightened by what they find. I’m going to do that tomorrow.

You say that the virus has a stinging 12 percent death rate, and 2,000,000 new Yorkers are infected. (Comes to 240,000)

That's more than the current total worldwide death toll. (234,000)

Current NY deathtoll is 23,000


a reply to: DoctorBluechip

a reply to: SaturnFX

originally posted by: SaturnFX
So even if you believe they are inflating the numbers with any given death must be coronavirus, how then can you explain just soo damn many deaths regardless of cause. Why is places like New Jersey peaking at nearly double the normal rate?

www.nytimes.com...

From your source:

There is evidence, in New York and other places, that the official coronavirus counts are probably too low.

This is simply a false statement. We already know that the Controlavirus is being listed as the cause of the death (without testing) regardless of whether its the flu, pneumonia, TB or any infection with similar symptoms.

The article itself addresses your premise:

There is also increasing evidence that stresses on the health care system and fears about catching the disease have caused some Americans to die from ailments that are typically treatable.

A recent draft paper found that hospital admissions for a major type of heart attack fell by 38 percent in nine major U.S. hospitals in March.

In a normal year, cardiovascular disease is the country’s leading cause of death.

In Puerto Rico in 2017, only 64 deaths were initially attributed to Hurricane Maria.

But an analysis of the additional deaths showed the way that the disaster had, directly and indirectly, led to nearly 3,000 deaths over six months.

The total included the immediate deaths from mudslides and drownings, but also sepsis, diabetes and suicides that came later as the power failure stretched on for months.

Coronavirus is clearly killing more U.S. residents directly than any hurricane has, but it is also changing lives in ways that may also contribute indirectly to increased deaths — by overloading the health care system and discouraging people from seeking care.

“It gives you an overall sense of how big things are,” said Samuel Clark, a professor of sociology at Ohio State University, whose work is in demography and epidemiology. “For now, you can basically attribute the excess mortality to Covid-19. But you also grab all the things that are not Covid at all, but are probably created by the situation.”

So there it is.

Admissions for heart attacks (the leading cause of death) are down by almost 40%...

In other words, people who would normally go to the hospital to receive care are instead avoiding the hospital (due to the government created crisis) and staying home.

Deaths which could be prevented are not. Simply because people are not being treated.

Like the hurricane analogy above, the government created crisis and quasi-Martial Law is causing more people to die from normally preventable causes.

originally posted by: Bicent
a reply to: SaturnFX

Once states come out of quarantine history, will repeat itself, until herd immunity, hope not... Or a vaccine. All you need is a 3 digit IQ to figure that out.

So I suspect its the plan overall
Keep the hospitals chuggling along, open things up, get a wave, close things, deal with the sick, open again, etc...until it worked its way through society without causing the hospitals to burn.

I can't say I am fully opposed to this idea mind you. If we do become immune after having the bug, then it might be the only real way to make it work outside of a 2 year lockdown, which wouldn't be feasable (mass starvation and such). I just think we have to be sober and non dismissive so the ones around the elderly and immune issues can be extra careful.
This attitude of "nothing to see here" is irresponsible and will end up getting people killed. If nothing much is happening, then you don't have to be extra careful.

The argument is that its not much worse than the flu so who cares
sure...whatever...the flu sucks though, like...really sucks. Most people who say they have the flu don't...they have a cold, some minor affliction. the flu for even a super healthy person makes you feel like death...for an elder, it could be (and often is) deadly. This strain is highly contagious, far more than the normal flu...how is that nothing even if you do believe the whole thing is overkill.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
Ia reply to: SaturnFX

Look at all the people that don’t even understand your very basic OP.

Lots of people are dead. Maybe from Covid maybe NOT, but it is more than normal.
Something is going on.


Then people scream, “but they are changing all deaths to Covid.” Maybe some people should use this time off for reading comprehension classes. Also if anyone has a problem with sources, they should do a little research and look it up themselves. Maybe they will be enlightened by what they find. I’m going to do that tomorrow.

Yeah, This is why I rarely post on this board anymore
It stopped being about digging into the research and trying to find the reality and now is almost completely about political baseball and feels.

The ones who were able to actually read the ops and begrudgingly responded to it basically dismissed it as either domestic violence or people having heart attacks at home...sure, that would increase the normal death rate of an area 3 to 4 times normal.
its laughable.
nevermind less workplace accidents, less road accidents, less stress at work causing heart attacks and strokes, less drunk driving deaths, etc that makes their theory a wash...must be husbands killing wives due to close proximity,
these people are geniuses.

originally posted by: Iscool

Or more than likely, far less...

Great contribution
You're doing a good job
You just tore my argument to shreds...well done.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
BOOM! Funeral Directors EXPOSE Death Certificate Frauds Behind CV Death

youtu.be...

I'll say a lot less.

BOOM!
That youtube channel is a joke

What fun about the satire channel is if you have been following their videos, they follow whatever Trump says lock step...which means of course flip flopping from week to week.

I haven't checked, but I imagine somewhere in there they will probably find a "doctor" who says bleach sniffing is fantastic...considering when Trump said his "sarcastic" remark, plenty here on ATS were trying to find any instance of how disinfectants are used in the body and totally not a insane suggestion.

A virus doesn't vote red or blue btw...do you know that? does anyone here know this? what the hell is wrong with you folks.
If you are pushed out of a plane, are parachutes some liberal agenda?

a reply to: SaturnFX

just think this could be a trial run with something not so lethal to see how it spreads and where is safe


imagine if COV19 was like 80-90% lethal

originally posted by: penroc3
a reply to: SaturnFX

just think this could be a trial run with something not so lethal to see how it spreads and where is safe


imagine if COV19 was like 80-90% lethal

If it was, things would be a lot easier tbh.
a highly lethal rate would have extreme measures...literally everyone would be locked in their homes by military force if needed for about 2 weeks, let everyone who has it die, then return to normal.
The ones like this are the bigger threat due to it being not taken that seriously, etc.

Once people see their own streets with piles of bodies of their neighbors in their yards, they tend to comply.

Here is the kicker...our economy is in shambles.
If we were to go on a strict military level lockdown...no movement at all, we would all have been drinking at the bar and whatnot weeks ago due to the virus finding no new host. I do think very temporary (measured in less than a month) iron fisted approach wouldn't be a bad thing in a pandemic...it just gets us back to normal fast. 2 weeks max.
Instead, this is going to drag out and keep things crippled for a year or more...tons of more deaths, tons of more lifetime issues, and a economy that will take years to fix.