Is the collapse of civilization imminent?

a reply to: Peeple

Well said. Reminds me of a line from the movie Jacob's Ladder.
"If your frightened of dying, and your holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth."
Guess the take-away is whether it's Heaven or Hell depends on your perspective.

a reply to: Somekindofwizard

I'm pretty sure this is the beginning of the end of petroleum age.

a reply to: Irishhaf

"Painful societal restructuring" might be a better descriptor for some.. But "collapse" fits the bill for others.

I do think that this could all be leading there. Maybe not right now, or even years.. But perhaps decades or a generation or two.

Lots of "ifs" and "maybes," but thats how it goes.

There are folks in positions of power and influence that are quite open about wanting "painful societal restructuring," globally.

They tend to market it as "Super Happy Fun Time." To which many respond "Well, that sounds just lovely, who could ever be against Super Happy Fun Time?"

But many very influential organizations and people are quite open about everything from depopulation to technofascism to collapsing the western system and remaking it.. because they think they know better. In the case of the latter, its not necessarily open, but its the pretty obvious end result of what they talk about.

Should they get their wish, and they are certainly in a position to work towards it, we are looking at another case of history repeating itself. Just in a distinctly modern context.

I do believe there are better ways, but the Wetiko infection runs deep in us all.

originally posted by: Peeple
So sure, probably sucks if you cling to the civilisation that's doomed, but an end is always a new beginning. And we're mostly getting a little bit better with each new cycle.

Interesting statement.

Have you considered the "us and them" scenario we live in and which side the "we're" puts each individual on?

originally posted by: Somekindofwizard
My final questions/thoughts. Are we as a people capable of recognizing an impending collapse? Could we stop it if we did? what would the world look like after such an event?

Yes, many are capable of recognizing errors within the controls systems.
Control because many of the mentioned civilizations had leadership that misled many times the humans or intelligent beings for personal agendas.

Have even instigated and initiated many wars to keep the controlled controllable...

So as long as many allow themselves to be led and not lead themselves many will continue on being exposed to said errors from leadership within the control matrix that may cause civilizations to collapse or be reset on purpose. And then restarted with potential new leadership or with same leadership as always with new skin...

Ultimately it is up to the controlled to recognize whether they prefer remaining controlled or if they cause conflict and or rebellion against their controllers to eventually control themselves...
A rebellion that would be useless if the same as always are not recognized... Nor their tricks.

originally posted by: ColoradoJens
a reply to: Vroomfondel

I believe the beginning of the end was quite some time ago. For me the herald event was people in the same community refusing to speak the same language. Communication is the key to civilisation. For example, when Chicago public school teachers had to learn ebonix because black students couldn't be bothered to learn proper English. That was a huge step backwards in many ways. It didn't just obstruct meaningful communication. It was another device to separate us.

I remember the ebonix thing.

Interesting that is what you choose as your "herald event". I could have figured there were bigger fish to fry, but yeah,

ebonix brought us to our knees for sure.

I think you are missing the bigger picture of what I am saying. Its not just ebonix. Its the inability to communicate and the lack of desire to rectify that. And that aspect of division is just another wedge driven in to divide us and pit us against each other.

Ebonix by itself was just a stupid way to speak poorly. But as a machination of division it is very effective.

a reply to: nerbot

The ones that have been doing that for a while and don't expect to achieve enlightemnent this round?

a reply to: Xtrozero

Toilet paper on the shelves - Not in my town, will you ship us some?

Actually, for the first time in my life I do see civilization collapsing.

Not from a virus, they have always been around and will always be around.

From political greed - which has led to promises the countries (nearly all civilized countries) can not afford

Most of Europe takes 60-70% of everything their population earns, when you add to income tax, VAT taxes, taxes on each Television in the home, Federal taxes on real estate along with local taxes on real estate, average $3 a gallon gas tax, etc, etc. This is soon to come to the US because it is so in debt that confiscating 60-70% of people's earnings and property is about the only way not to fall into bankruptcy.

But people like AOC, Bernie and others see it as compassion, to forceably take away 70% of everything that everyone has.

Ah, but what of the politicians who dole out the billions they rake in by force (taxes are by force, don't pay, go to jail). The VAST majority of politicians are very very wealthy, and how the H E double toothpicks did they get that way? Corruption, in every nation, in every country and the more powerful the nation, the more corrupt the elite political class, whether they are communist, socialist, a republic or a democracy.

Elite politicians greed, like the greed of kings of old,
like the greed of those holding their citizens as slaves like in China,
or those holding their citizens under repressive control like Russia,
or like those who pretend to care about the people in Europe
and the US while raking in millions and millions in corrupt money in under the table deals.

This is the world today, and it can not continue. It will implode eventually.

Most likely with massive rebellions once the people are bled dry by "taxes" (money stolen from them to enrich the elite) and see the luxury of the elite political class and the poverty of the rest of the people. With COVID 19 and the standstill of the world economy, massive unemployment and even entire states in the US nearing bankruptcy, the time table for the massive rebellions putting an end to government as we know it today, has been greatly accelerated.

Even in the US many are clamoring for socialism, they don't realize that in practice socialism ALWAYS breeds a elite political class who become very wealthy and rule with a heavy hand over the populace forcing them live and think the way the elite political class thinks is best for everyone - everyone else that is. The then slaves to the socialist government are all left equal, yes, equally poor and equally impoverished, with just enough to feel they aren't impoverished, just on the edge. This is the way every single socialist country has turned out in action.

Yes, collapse for the first time in my life, I feel is very close upon the world.

COVID 19 is the catalyst for world wide civilization collapse, and the media and journalists with their lust for terrorizing the population with ever more gruesome stories and predictions that later fall apart, have contributed and are accelerating the eventual collapse of governments and society as we know it. Media and journalists are unwittingly a party to the collapse of society, with their lust for getting the most terrible thing to report to people, even if it is greatly exaggerated to the point of fake news.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: nerbot

Those that try to contol the world around them because they are selfish and side with big brother and those that control their own destiny because they are self reliant, self sufficient and are capable of making their own decisions, taking accountability and responsibility.

Both outlooks have power, but the humanies are very opposite imo.

Depends where one stands when one thinks or says "we".

The real trigger always was the food shortage. The hunger games could hit us as soon as by the end of the year.
A new generation of locusts that officials are describing as “20 times bigger” has emerged.
China Triggers Global Starvation

originally posted by: PapagiorgioCZ
The real trigger always was the food shortage. The hunger games could hit us as soon as by the end of the year.
A new generation of locusts that officials are describing as “20 times bigger” has emerged.

Adapt and survive.

Locust recipe

a reply to: Somekindofwizard
Civilization is only possible to begin with because men of action use force to accomplish it. The first big tribe that went out and forced the annexation/assimilation of neighboring tribes for a common goal is how and why we were able to move on from Nomadic hunter/gatherers to stabilized agriculture production for established settlements.

There has to be someone to protect the farmer from force of bandits, and to protect the distribution and storage, which incrementally over time evolves into the institutions that we have today. Maybe civilization will collapse, but that only lasts for so long. Somebody always wants to rule, and civilization begins again in no time.

a reply to: Somekindofwizard

Good post and relevant. I would ask the question if you are in a Collapse would you actually recognize it as one until it was to late? If its subjective I doubt whether you would, If you define a society as systems within systems, when the systems start to breakdown and become unreliable, people remember it was unreliable and seek sustainable alternatives. But only when they have to .We could argue that a collapse has been underway for some time, since before the GFC, The West has ceded manufacturing to the East, the Eastern manufacturing has all but collapsed. The ability to purchase is now severely curtailed. Which will cause more systems to unravel, food production has been impacted by weather events, to what extent I am not to sure, but wheat production is way down. The world economy is stopped, and is surviving on its fat at the present time. How can a Capitalistic system continue, if suddenly people have no capital , so the fall back is a command system. Which is paid for in a currency that can buy nothing when the fat is used up. Are we in a descending spiral which will eventually hit rock bottom? it seems so, and its been going on for years. Probably ,because corrupt systems end up corrupted completely. The tipping point is always food scarcity .

a reply to: anonentity

Thank you to everyone who as responded so far. As to the question redirected at me I personally do not believe a collapsing society would see the signs before it's too late. Under most circumstances I should say. In the case of something like an impending meteorite strike we would however in that case it would be too late regardless. In a situation like what we have now I do not. It won't necessarily be one thing that does it but a series of small seemingly unrelated things. Death from a thousand cuts. People are too busy living their lives and the small things while inconvenient are just that... Inconvenient. When added together they are the thousand cuts.

Let's take this case and project into the future. If and it's a big if, this continues like many have speculated it will for a few years we could likely see the shut down of many things society depends on for it's survival. While we have built an impressive society it is alot more fragile than people think. If the airlines shut down, or even slow to a snail's pace, ie transport of goods only as has been proposed. If trade routes close, many countries have discussed or already stopped export of food and goods, and supply lines between regions are stopped, our way of life changes dramatically. Cities only ever have enough food supply for less than a week, 3 days I think, without resupply. In larger cities what happens when the food runs out? People will not just sit there and watch their family starve. If this happens in enough places and anarchy breaks out it will spread to the surrounding areas. People will defend their family and their means of survival. Given long enough of that and society will not recover, at least not in any form we would recognize. Who is going to leave their home for work knowing their family is in danger?
Oil is already so cheap that it's not profitable to produce. How long does that go on before companies stop producing? No fuel to go to work or transport goods will destroy the world economy and end civilization as we know it.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Somekindofwizard

Good post and relevant. I would ask the question if you are in a Collapse would you actually recognize it as one until it was to late?

Some folks would be still quoting "Q" wating for the imaginary genius plan of POTUS to unfold after a year in a house arrest and with police drones from China in the streets. Waiting for a weekly ration of flour and toilet paper

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: PapagiorgioCZ
The real trigger always was the food shortage. The hunger games could hit us as soon as by the end of the year.
A new generation of locusts that officials are describing as “20 times bigger” has emerged.

Adapt and survive.

Locust recipe

I like the idea of a cheap source of kinda animal protein. If someone sells bags of cheap locust protein powder I'll buy some. However, I've read that when they reach this biblical level they morph into bigger, coloured and toxin containg version and it's too late to harvest them

a reply to: nerbot

That's not how I see it. But I am weird. And don't believe that there are more than one type of humans.

Civilizations come and civilizations go. And everything and everybody will always just limp along after the fact. Not like there is much to miss in this current one, in fact not like there was much to miss in all the other civilizations that came before.

I don't see why people are so worked up. What are you gonna miss the orange man drama and the microwave dinners, and the drama at the office? There really aint much out there that will be missed. Personally I hope the zombie apocalypse happens at least once before this current iteration of humans coagulating in large groups come to an end.

But saying all that. Most civilizations are designed to run there course and fall, and yes, they are designed. Nothing ever just happens by itself. But asking why they fall is like asking why forest fires happen.

Often, the vast majority of the populace survives the collapse of complex civilization.

There's a great book, "the collapse of complex societies" that is fantastic.

There are often underlying trends, but the end is usually when an individual or group realizes that simplifying the complexity is actually easier, and frees up more value than maintaining the old order does.

The classic example is the Anasazi, of the US southwest. They built a complex series of irrigation canals to irrigate maize. After a couple of centuries, some of those canals were over 100miles long, and needed to be weeded and redug by hand; and all that for some quite marginal desert anyway.

So one time they just didn't. They didn't keep up that last canal. And so some people moved away, so they needed less of a harvest, and nobody had to work as hard. Then they did a little bit less year after year. And every year it was easier to do less.

In economics there is the S-curve. Most of the dramatic gains come early with a New technology, or a new empire. But after the first easy gains, it becomes more and more work for a smaller and smaller return. For instance with automobiles; American cars got better every year in the 1950s, with automatic transmission and power windows and cruise control. Now expensive new systems must be developed, and one years cars aren't much better than the previous.

The same thing happens to empires, whether it is the Romans or the ottoman. You pluck the low hanging fruit first. And your intractable enemies remain intractable. To the point where they are waiting in the wings while you subside.

Somebody like atila the Hun comes along, and strips away all the excess value, by simplifying the economy. If he or his successors keep doing that year after year, they end up punishing the people who try to keep a city running; while overlooking the refugees in the countryside. Pretty soon, there's no reason to try and live in the city, when you are safer from invaders living in a villa in the hills…

a reply to: Graysen

That is a debatable bit of history, it was before the European's got there and some of the ruin's show that at the end of the Anasazi period cannibalism occurred probably as the people were starving, this was from some human bone fragment's found in the ruins' of one of there town's and also there are alternative explanations, famine, drought and disease as well as possible invasion by other people's.

As you know from Cahokia and the mound builders they were far from the only civilized (by our definition - builders with complex society's) to have lived in North America though a lot of the evidence was conveniently destroyed, looted or built over by later European settlers.

One thing is certain the North American people's were far from a single group and also far from the primitive savages that expansionist propaganda once painted them as, rich cultural traditions, art and even perhaps architecture but there period's of civilization were either in a trough between peak's of cultural advancement OR they succumbed to diseases brought to the America's by European's long before north american colony's spread and took control of the entire north american continent.
Now you have heard of Cahokia but it is far from the only such site and either through ignorance of willful disrespect many other sites have either been ignored or outright denied as being what they actually are, look to the old world the great city of Troy was just a hill and so too was Nineveh and only when excavated did there complex history become apparent and then remember since many native american sites were built with mud brick or raw earth how much harder is it to distinguish ruined city and temple mound's there.