Is the collapse of civilization imminent?

I want to start by saying that this may not be in the right forum. Furthermore on the surface this may seem like a situation that could never happen, but stay with me here.

Linked below is an article, yes religious in nature, but it talks about the stages of the rise and fall of a civilization. While the religious parts may not be your cup of tea I am ignoring those parts and focusing on the other aspects. Here is the article and I will highlight other parts of it.

[url=https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/the-eight-stages-of-the-rise-and-fall-of-civilizations1]

The parts of this I am focusing on for our purposes are the last three stages listed below.

From complacency to apathy – The word apathy comes from the Greek and refers to a lack of interest in, or passion for, the things that once animated and inspired. Due to the complacency of the previous stage, the growing lack of attention to disturbing trends advances to outright dismissal. Many seldom think or care about the sacrifices of previous generations and lose a sense that they must work for and contribute to the common good. “Civilization” suffers the serious blow of being replaced by personalization and privatization in growing degrees. Working and sacrificing for others becomes more remote. Growing numbers becoming increasingly willing to live on the carcass of previous sacrifices. They park on someone else’s dime, but will not fill the parking meter themselves. Hard work and self-discipline continue to erode.

From apathy to dependence – Increasing numbers of people lack the virtues and zeal necessary to work and contribute. The suffering and the sacrifices that built the culture are now a distant memory. As discipline and work increasingly seem “too hard,” dependence grows. The collective culture now tips in the direction of dependence. Suffering of any sort seems intolerable. But virtue is not seen as the solution. Having lived on the sacrifices of others for years, the civilization now insists that “others” must solve their woes. This ushers in growing demands for governmental, collective solutions. This in turns deepens dependence, as solutions move from personal virtue and local, family-based sacrifices to centralized ones.

From dependence back to bondage – As dependence increases, so does centralized power. Dependent people tend to become increasingly dysfunctional and desperate. Seeking a savior, they look to strong central leadership. But centralized power corrupts, and tends to usher in increasing intrusion by centralized power. Injustice and intrusion multiplies. But those in bondage know of no other solutions. Family and personal virtue (essential ingredients for any civilization) are now effectively replaced by an increasingly dark and despotic centralized control, hungry for more and more power. In this way, the civilization is gradually ended, because people in bondage no longer have the virtues necessary to fight.

Lets talk about the middle one listed above apathy to dependence. Based on society in the United States I believe we entered that phase forty years ago and it has grown in scope since then. Obviously not everyone but a significant portion of the population depends on the government for their ability to survive.

Moving on to the last phase here, one wonders if giving the government the power they now have to close society has crossed this Rubicon. When in the history of man have we ever given government power and they gave it back willingly?

The above is really just setting the stage for the rest of this post, be patient.

When we look at the civilizations we know of, and I say that because I happen to believe the research of G. Hancock and many others regarding past advanced civilizations on this planet, they all had a lifetime and the fall of said civilization brought forth change in world society. Not all of those changes in society were as dramatic as others but there was change none the less. I'll not highlight all of them but look at some relevant, in my mind, examples.

One could argue that Rome, Imperial China, Assyria, Greece, The Kingdom of Kush, the Olmecs and the Indus Valley Civilization were the longest lived civilizations throughout our history. Our current iteration led by the United States is very short lived in relation and more in line with historical trends of the lifeline of civilizations. When each of these civilizations fell it marked a significant change in the way the world worked for the most part. The collapse of Rome brought on the dark ages in Europe. Imperial China turned inward, stopped their innovation and exploration and set the world back technologically. One could of course argue that they never really fell but that's a topic for another day.

The question at hand is this, are we set for another collapse? On the surface people will argue that we are too advanced to collapse and I don't necessarily mean a return to the stone age. That being said if supply lines stopped and people were forced to fend for them selves how many people have the skills and knowledge to actually survive on their own?

The virus that currently has much of the world shut down may or may not have a vaccine that can be made. There seem to be a lot of reports of reinfection.
[url=http://www.sciencetimes.com...]

If this is the case then the virus goes round and round until the over all population density can no longer sustain its transmission. The earth has a way of cleaning itself up. We are already seeing some shortages in the grocery stores, there's talk of a meat shortage.

What would it take to bring this on? collapse of air travel, supply chain disruptions, economic collapse? If we were hit with another Carrington event right now it would devastate the region or more.

My final questions/thoughts. Are we as a people capable of recognizing an impending collapse? Could we stop it if we did? what would the world look like after such an event?

a reply to: Somekindofwizard

Imminent? No.
Inevitable? Yes.
History teaches us that all civilizations collapse, and ours will too some day, it's just a matter of time, but today is not that day.

a reply to: Somekindofwizard

The dark ages were actually quite nice. Even the weather was better.

So sure, probably sucks if you cling to the civilisation that's doomed, but an end is always a new beginning. And we're mostly getting a little bit better with each new cycle.

a reply to: Somekindofwizard

When posing this question history is the only looking glass we have by which to produce a workable comparison, accepted history shows that all civilization's have collapsed and risen and collapsed again and risen again, China is the longest lasting surviving civilization BUT arguably it is actually not that at all it is merely a modern civilization that inherited the thing's left by it's predecessors when they collapsed and by this argument the longest every lasting civilization that we know of would therefore have to be one of the ages of ancient egypt which was also several distinct civilizations - we call them period's but in fact they were separate dynasty's and in many cases even invading powers over the course of it's long history.

Our own civilization is already a mixed bag, it's global nature WILL insulate it against regional collapse for a very long time and entire nations (civilizations) are likely to come and go before what we call Civilization burn's itself out and collapses again.

However we can draw many analogy's between the fall of ancient Rome and the time's we are now living in with corruption both at the center of government's around the world and in there regional department's, power struggles often being played out financially rather than by army's but it is the same thing in the end.

The saving grace we have today is the lack of barbarians at the gates which Rome most certainly did have - that said we do have culture clash and religious extremism which if left unchecked pose a serious risk to both global stability and indeed what we call civilization.

That said is a global culture? a civilization? or are we already somewhere in the trough between great cultural ages of civilization.

And does our turning to virtual world's pose even more of a risk than religious extremism and culture clash as we turn away from the real world and focus our tiny minds' on virtual world's and the internet?.

a reply to: Peeple

Well I guess it did lead to the renaissance, but it also saw Europe plunge into constant war, two Christian Crusades, and the birth of the African slave trade. I guess it all sort of worked out?

I have been watching civility collapse for five years now. the Far left and progressives are collapsing it because they are not assessing what the changes they are demanding will cause in our country well enough. Risk assessment in schools is not done anymore, chaos will erupt.

Q: Are we as a people capable of recognizing an impending collapse?
A: Unless it is a Black Swan event that catches us completely off guard then, Yes. Some people will see it coming a mile away, others it will take longer, some will never see it until it's on their doorstep.

Q: Could we stop it if we did?
A: A truly extinction level event would be unstoppable. There are some collapse scenarios that we can slow and some we could stop, but I'd guess that would be just a few out of all the possible events that could cause a collapse.

Q: What would the world look like after such an event?
A: Different to be sure. It could range from utter devastation to some major changes, but it certainly doesn't have to mean the end of our civilization, just a major shift at many levels. Ultimately it would be collapse and rebuild or disappear.

Rome is probably the best comparison to the US. Political infighting, corruption, demeaning of the military, pandering to non citizens for political power and an immoral culture that ignores the rule of law. Every civilization though has a shelf life. I know towards the end of Rome they tried to recall former military leaders to restore order but they declined. If I was recalled right now I would do the same. Why serve when half the country has no respect for the military and the other half uses them for meaningless confrontations.

a reply to: strongfp

It's a work in progress. And a matter of taste. Or what you want to focus on. Universities were founded, the first steps towards free trade and a constitution. In regards to slavery even if it got bad for Africans, before almost everybody was a slave, so in a weird way even that was one step towards more liberty. Eventually.
I just wanted to say that "the world" doesn't end when one civilisation goes belly up. And maybe even those civilisations in their ethnical context never go completely lost. It's just changing.

a reply to: Klassified

It remains in the realm of speculation and even philosophy.. But is this actually true?

I think that past a certain point of diversification and decentralization, that a true, total collapse of civilization becomes nearly impossible without intent.

Lets say we are at a point, as a species, where we have colonized thousands of planets, hundreds of systems, and hundreds of space stations. There might be local collapses, but a total collapse becomes quite unlikely. At least in anything remotely resembling a historical context.

Can we achieve that sort of stability on a single planet? I believe we can, to a certain extent at least, and it derives from the same premise on a smaller scale.

In my opinion, nearly all collapses tend to derive from centralized dependency. And when that system goes wonky, as it tends to do, things crumble.

In that, perhaps it isnt an innate quality of "civilization" itself, but how we always build it on shaky foundations laying atop sand.

a reply to: Stupidsecrets

It goes far beyond the US into most of the world today, at time's we have great leaders in all of our nation's and a great leader provides stability and problem solving as well as elevating there nation and it's people's living standards.

But today all too often we see leaders that are not fit for purpose, they are only there because of corruption, public boredom with whomever they had before or scare mongering and serve not there electorate but only the men that fund there party's and there own election's.

You know other than problems Rome faced with the barbarians', regional corruption and growing power outside of Rome were many provinces became more powerful than Rome itself in it's latter day's the Roman ruling class had another very serious problem.

Today we have plastic and modern chemical pollution but in ancient Rome's last years it was Lead, the metal was malleable and a wonder material that they used in places were we often use plastic today everything from sealing food jars (something that also happened when we started to tin food's but being more modern in our approach to medicine we eventually recognized the link between lead sealed can's and lead poisoning while they did not), to water pipes and even as a Food dye - the Roman's loved to add red lead to make there food look appetizing.

Of course we know it's dangers, it is bio-accumulative (builds - accumulates - up in the body over time) and can cause dementia like symptom's and reduce intelligence as well as other affects, and of course the Roman Patrician class whom there leaders and general's had traditionally been chosen from were seriously affected by this to the degree that by the end of the Roman empire it's emperors were not even Roman any longer and the patrician class had all but been displaced by new blood, probably as lead poisoning also causes sterility.

Still some of Rome's greatest every leaders were actually not of the patrician class but even these late emperors were not able to stop the inevitable collapse.

It's a shame though as if only the likes of Heron of Alexandria had pushed there inventiveness just a tiny fraction further they roman's were only one stage away from having steam engines, imagine what a rail network would have done for the Roman empire, Heron created automatic steam powered door's and a horn that blew when a visitor to a temple in Alexandria dropped a coin into a slot among other thing's and if we put his inventions together we have all the parts for a steam engine - then again the Roman's still ran on a slave economy so even if it had been invented it may never have been adopted - though just perhaps it might have been.

Then we have the evidence that the great bath's in Rome used triple glazed window's - float glass (Pilkington's technique without which modern sky scrapers would have to be made with tiny windows and rolled glass or leaded glass larger window's made up of small panes) had not yet been invented and indeed it was rolled glass but then again Roman glass makers were some of the greatest in history - that some unknown person had invented to keep the heat in and that the architect of that bathing house had used in it's construction or later modifications to it.

Still for all there wonders Rome was doomed.

Then again they did love to watch innocent people thrown to lion's so?.

I believe the beginning of the end was quite some time ago. For me the herald event was people in the same community refusing to speak the same language. Communication is the key to civilisation. For example, when Chicago public school teachers had to learn ebonix because black students couldn't be bothered to learn proper English. That was a huge step backwards in many ways. It didn't just obstruct meaningful communication. It was another device to separate us.

I firmly believe it will be liberal policies that will ultimately cause the collapse of our society. It is just a matter of time. I am not taking an opportunity here for political sniping. I am sharing my honest opinion of how and why this will happen.

If you look closely at every major city run by democrats they all have one thing in common - they are more akin to third world countries than major US cities. Filthy, crime ridden, corrupt, bankrupt or near to it, beyond saving. Democrats and their policies have destroyed these cities. But that is not the biggest part of the problem. When the democrats who voted for the imbeciles who wrecked havoc on their own homes get fed up with the disgusting living conditions they move to greener pastures. Those greener pastures are often found in conservative cities or states. That, in an of itself, is not the problem. The problem is that these relocated democrats do not embrace the conservative policies that created those greener pastures. Instead, they start voting in democrats who inevitably start initiating the same failed policies that ruined their own cities. It is just a matter of time before conservatives, and even some democrats, get fed up with this repeating cycle of stupidity. That is when the gloves will come off. Even worse would be the realisation that it is not repeating stupidity but rather intentional destruction of this nation. Gloves off - guns up.

IMO the fall will be due to a combination of party politics, racial tension, and legal vs illegal. The reason is all three have definite party affiliation and can easily be pitted against each other.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

The Great Depression lasted for over 10 years.

It started 1929 and reached its peak around 1933. So people saw it coming, but many thought the government would save them.

Much of what happened then, we can learn from, but too many are way too comfortable and complacent to wake up in time.

a reply to: Serdgiam
Good post.

In my opinion, nearly all collapses tend to derive from centralized dependency. And when that system goes wonky, as it tends to do, things crumble.

In that, perhaps it isnt an innate quality of "civilization" itself, but how we always build it on shaky foundations laying atop sand.

Not as much speculation as observation, which is exactly why it's so predictable. It's the same pattern over and over. Ignore history...collapse...wash, rinse, repeat. Maybe someday we'll learn.

I hope so. This one is completely full of snip.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

I believe the beginning of the end was quite some time ago. For me the herald event was people in the same community refusing to speak the same language. Communication is the key to civilisation. For example, when Chicago public school teachers had to learn ebonix because black students couldn't be bothered to learn proper English. That was a huge step backwards in many ways. It didn't just obstruct meaningful communication. It was another device to separate us.

I remember the ebonix thing.

Interesting that is what you choose as your "herald event". I could have figured there were bigger fish to fry, but yeah,

ebonix brought us to our knees for sure.

...NO, and I'll tell you why. There are far too many resourses in storage or just in the pipeline. It would take a couple years of zero productivity to destroy the economies and deplete all the resourses to zero count. Hearalding the rise of anarchy, revolt and tribal band behavior you envission. To many eager to make money and amass fortunes either in prosperity or famine. It will seperate those willing to actually work for most of the population. Barter will rule the economies.

a reply to: Somekindofwizard

Calm down... Calm the F DOWN! TP is back on the shelves once again....

a reply to: Klassified

I really do believe the key to that success is adopting the tools that enable the diversification and decentralization on the individual/household level.

Im actually not sure we have been able to do that, effectively, until modern times. Putting aside any notions of ultra-advanced civilizations in the distant past, of course

Weve pretty much got what we need to do that, here and now. Just have to actually start working in that direction. I believe my own work is exceptionally relevant in this regard, but Im not sure too many care. Sounds bitter, and maybe it is a wee bit (decades of work, eh?), but its also pragmatic observation.

So, I suspect the best chance is for those at the "top" to see they are, like always, creating a worse world for themselves alongside everyone else. And, like always, we tend to either go along with it or just grumble about it as it happens. We shall see..

ETA: Im just not sure that 99% of what we argue about, fight about, or complain about is even relevant to our success as a nation or civilization. Quite the opposite, really, and that includes myself.

no not even close, Argentina had a total collapse and still managed to limp along with a semblance of civilization.

Back during the black death a semblance of law and order remained (not much of one but it was there).

That doesn't mean it will be easy for the next several years, doesn't mean there wont be areas where it falls apart completely just in general no it will not collapse.