theory of the faked crucifixion of Jesus

In the 4th century,there were 25 different versions available of JC's
death and ressurection:24 too many to be true.
Christanism is a copy of Myhtraism and it was Emperor Constantine who
declared him to be a God,BY DECREE!That was the end of Myhraism and
the Vatican was build on his Temple.
Christians have to beleive what their Church instructs them to believe and
no discussions about it;others can easily find out about facts about reli-
gion and clear up their minds on that matter:
www.jesusneverexisted.com...
Baloria
"Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?" - Ron Patterson

I just read this and thought it might apply to christians facing this situation/type of question.

So I will make it my final word and bow out.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Did you hear of the family Saleem ,who lives in India and claims to be the descendants of Christ.

...the story have been discussed here...but they claim to own the corpse of Christ....

As God himself said " He is not the ruler of earth but satan " The prince and power of the airs. God gave this earth over to satan to prove HIS law of "FREE WILL" Without a satan we would not have a free will.

LOL that's all I had to say.

As a product of both Christian and Jewish Sunday Schools

Me too!!!

In Judaism, it's practically a requirement to question everything! It's even a long-standing Jewish tradition to publish the "minority report" - try finding that in your Christian texts.

That's what I L-O-V-E about it!

where in Christianity or church are you not supposed to ask questions? I've been to a good number of churches and as anyone who spent any time in academics will tell you the more answers you get, the more questions you have. The Bible itself encourages you to "seek and you'll find". In addition, you can even ask God as a resource when you feel you've searched everywhere. James chapter 1.

But during the service, do you find that there is a time that is meant explicitly for questions? I've been to several different denominations within Christianity and have never found this. After the Torah portion is read, people in the congregation openly discuss the reading, ask questions, bounce things off of one another, have the rabbi clarify things, etc. It's a beautiful thing.

Seems to me that the best the jews of the day could offer , were all answered by Jesus Christ.

"Excuse me, Jesus, can you answer the following?"

Why is there no World Peace?

"And he [Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." -- Isaiah 2:4

"He [Messiah] will destroy death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

"Then the inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fire and feed them with the weapons -- shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, clubs and spears; they shall use them as fuel for seven years." -- Ezekiel 39:9

Why is there no Universal Knowledge of G-d?

"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. -- Isaiah 11:9

"And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or shall one teach his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from their smallest to their greatest," says the Lord" -- Jeremiah 31:33

"All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King Lord of Hosts and to observe the feasts." -- Zechariah 14:16

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." -- Zechariah 14:9

"Thus said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold -- they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."
-- Zachariah 8.23

Why has the Third Temple not been built?

"...and I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. -- Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

Why didn't death cease?

"He will swallow up death forever...." -- Isaiah 25:8

Why aren't the dead resurrected?

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust, for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." -- Isaiah 26:19

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Daniel 12:2

"Therefore, prophesy and say to them, "So says the Lord G-d: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My people." -- Ezekiel 37:12-13

Why has there not been an ingathering of Israel?

"I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, ''Give up,'' and to the south, "Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughter from the ends of the earth. -- Isaiah 43:5-6. (See also Jeremiah 16:15; 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22)

(And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. -- Isaiah 11:12

But, As the L-rd lives, who brought the people of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands where he had driven them; and I will bring them back to their land that I gave to their fathers. -- Jeremiah 16:15

And I will gather the remnant of my flock from all countries where I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. -- Jeremiah 23:3

21. And say to them, Thus says the Lord G-d: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land;
22. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; -- Ezekiel 37: 21-22)

Why are nations not helping the Jews materially?

"Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall fear and expand; because the abundance of the sea shall be overturned upon you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you." -- Isaiah 60:5

"Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you. Men shall bring you the wealth of the nations with their kings led in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste." -- Isaiah 60:10--12

"But you shall be called “priests of the L-rd,” men shall say of you, “ministers of our G-d;” you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory." -- Isaiah 61:6

Why is there not eternal joy and gladness in Israel?

"And the redeemed of the L-rd shall return, and come to Zion in song; everlasting joy shall be upon their head; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee. -- Isaiah 51:11

Why aren't Jews being sought after for guidance?

Thus says the L--rd of hosts: “In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations shall take hold and seize the robe of a Jew, saying: `Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.' ” -- Zechariah 8:23

Why haven't all weapons of war been destroyed?

"Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go forth and set fire to the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, handspikes and spears, and they will make fires of them for seven years...." -- Ezekiel 39:9

Why haven't the enemy's dead been buried?

For seven months the House of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. -- Ezekiel 39:12

Why hasn't the Egyptian river run dry?

"And the L-rd will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt and wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind, and smite it into seven channels, and make men cross dryshod." -- Isaiah 11:15

Why have the trees not produced new trees monthly in Israel?

And on both sides of the bank of the stream, all trees for food will grow; their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because their waters flow from the Sanctuary; their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine. -- Ezekiel 47:12

Why haven't the tribes received their inheritance?

"Thus says the L-rd, G-d: “These are the boundaries by which you shall divide the land for inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. And you shall divide equally that which I swore to give your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.” -- Ezekiel 47:13--14

Why are there still wars?

"And He shall judge among the nations and decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." -- Isaiah 2:4

Maybe someone can answer for Jesus. After all, death was supposed to cease and he died (if he lived).

For what it's worth....

"I think he may be suggesting that an anesthetic would make Jesus appear to dead. Then he could be revived later on. I doubt that they had any anesthetic strong enough to reduce the pain by very much, let alone mimic death"

Ether was used as an anesthetic aid in ancient China, @ 2000 years ago or so (Hua Tuo being widely credited as pioneering the use of anesthesia in surgery, though earlier examples of use do exist).

It's not unreasonable to deduce that ancient European and other Eastern peoples also had their own forms of anesthesia, not least when we consider that certain toxins could also render a person unconscious (but alive) for extended periods.

I'm wondering though. Many posts here are relying upon biblical quotes to prove a point; if the very nature and truth of the Crucifixion (and by extension, the NT) is under dispute, why would such quotes be considered acceptable evidence?

Is that not circular reasoning?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I'm wondering though. Many posts here are relying upon biblical quotes to prove a point; if the very nature and truth of the Crucifixion (and by extension, the NT) is under dispute, why would such quotes be considered acceptable evidence?

Is that not circular reasoning?

What other historical documents do ya have?

The gospels were recorded by four different people, with obvious differences and yet has the same stories. One of two possibilities exist: 1.) These four did not counsel each other before writing and they cross-verify as accurate and true or 2.) These four did counsel each other before writing and is subject to change. The problem with #2 is, if they were in collusion, why would they allow for difference? Would that not divide the church on those individual issues and cause argument to it\'s validity? Why then are there 4 books and not 1? Things that make you go hmmm....

Now, before we go into the "well maybe they wanted the slight variations to make it seem like they weren't together", my response would be to analyse the events of the resurrection. Clearly there was some confusion as to who did what when. Upon closer inspection, the realization comes in to where you are in fact getting the same events from four different perspectives. Classic example. If you have four children witness something exciting, then separate and ask each one what happened, you'd get the same story 4 different ways. This is consistent with Jesus commissioning them to go out to all the nations of the earth and then the records coming after that.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

What other historical documents do ya have?

That's the point. They're not universally accepted as historical documents.

Anecdotal evidence? Probably. But historical fact? That's still under dispute.
Surely to prove or disprove this debate, we need different source material from that which is in question itself?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
That's the point. They're not universally accepted as historical documents.

That's true, I know some guys from Rectillius Prime that don't think they are. I'm kidding! Please don't blast me.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Anecdotal evidence? Probably. But historical fact? That's still under dispute.
Surely to prove or disprove this debate, we need different source material from that which is in question itself?

How can we talk about it otherwise? We can all sit around going "what if..." and send our ideas to the Sci-Fi network, but I don't see any way of making progress by doing that.

On the other hand, I hold that it's entirely possible that we have 4 different authors providing their written account of a story that began and grew as an oral tradition. That does not make it either true or false or somewhere in between - it just means that there was a generally accepted story going around and when 4 different guys tried to write it down, they got different versions.

That has happened thousands of times throughout history - when you try to capture some oral tradition into a written form, you're going to get one version that is different from somebody else's version.

That's true, I know some guys from Rectillius Prime that don't think they are.

I'm kidding! Please don't blast me.

Phhhhht. You also know some weird girl from Britain who agrees with those guys

That's why this is so interesting and thought-provking though - because there is no evidence outside of the Book in question, the contents of which are under dispute as the veracity therein.

Perhaps by asking "is there any other evidence available, outside of Biblical sources?" , or questions of that nature, might enable us to discover (or not) an objective or independent account?





[edit on 17-6-2005 by Tinkleflower]

In the Quran is different.

We as muslim belive that it not Jesus that was crucified but one of his followers that betraded him.

Jesus send to God to the sky and will come down when the Anit-Christ Apears

Why in the hell would the crucifixion of Jesus be fake? Do not all Catholic and Christian chuches have the cross??? Oh my Gosh. Stop trying to be a hero and say: Hey look at me! I think I've found a hidden code in the Bible! Just read it and comprehend it people. It's not that hard. You're spending more time trying to find something that you aren't gonna find, then just reading God's word. I am so sick of the Divinci Code and; Did Jesus get Married? Was this all a hoax? Come on people! You're making life hard for yourselves.

Why in the hell would the crucifixion of Jesus be fake? Do not all Catholic and Christian chuches have the cross???

This is the funniest argument I haver seen EVER.

You're spending more time trying to find something that you aren't gonna find, then just reading God's word.

Like people who spend all of their time trying to fit Jesus into the Tanakh rather than just reading G-d's word.

Originally posted by Mistress of Night
Why in the hell would the crucifixion of Jesus be fake? Do not all Catholic and Christian chuches have the cross??? Oh my Gosh.

They all have a cross. Some of them have dozens or more. Most Christians probably own at least one. Many of them are quite pretty.

I think you have a lot of studying to do before you try to convince anybody of anything. Don't despair - dig in! But, since most of us here have read the bible; many of us have read multiple versions of it, in fact; and some people here have actually read it in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic; and most of us have read the ancient historians (as much as is left to us after the burning of some of the world's greatest ancient libraries); well, you see what I'm getting at...

Step away from the computer and get thee to a good book store. Come back in about 10 years and tell us what you've learned. We'll leave a light on for you.

Interesting post. I really struggle with religion and the grief that goes with it. Nice to see a good intelligent arguement.



[edit on 20-6-2005 by Monkfish]

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Monkfish]

Originally posted by Shonet1430
But during the service, do you find that there is a time that is meant explicitly for questions?

Not during but before and after. That's 166 hours a week for questions, 2 to stop and listen. Now I know 2 hours is a lot of time to ask someone to listen but...

I've been to several different denominations within Christianity and have never found this.

Did you discuss questions with others in the church until you found a knowledgable source? Better still, Did you talk to God? Even on the internet you have to type something in to get something back.

Originally posted by Shonet1430
After the Torah portion is read, people in the congregation openly discuss the reading, ask questions, bounce things off of one another, have the rabbi clarify things, etc. It's a beautiful thing.

I'm sure you'd be surprised at the number of churches and people in it who are more than happy to answer quesetions or discuss. Sometimes they call it Sunday school, house church, Q & A sessions, Inquirer's roundtables, etc. I'll do the legwork if anyone is looking to find one. U2U me the town you're in and I'll look up some options.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.


[edit on 20-6-2005 by saint4God]

2 000 years ago is a long time. The reality that there may never have existed a Jesus is possible. It is by no means impossible, though I tend to think he was a real historical figure, though somewhat misunderstood, and very much taylored over the centuries to fit the aims of the powers that be. I don't KNOW that though, it was two millenia ago, and I have yet to be completely convinced. But I believe he lived. Okay, that said, I have read two books that were written by Jewish researchers who made very good cases to support the idea that he was a fictional character. The area he supposedly lived in was occupied mostly by Jews, so they have the best chance of finding evidence he lived. They found none. Lots of records of the time period, the places, the famous characters like Herod, Caeser, and Pilate, but nothing about any of the disciples, or entourage, or the man himself. That doesn't prove anything, but they do make good arguments.
I have a very unique view of Jesus' life, and it is just my opinion, no more.
Maybe he didn't die on the cross. Maybe he had kids, that is no sin. And maybe he could perform miracles. I can't, does that mean he couldn't, no.
We all must follow our own path, make our own conclusions, and in my opinion, respect the conclusions of others, whether or not we agree.
But I have no answers. Just questions..endless questions.