The History of the Vymanika Shastra

The Vymanika Shastra (sometimes given other spellings) is a work of disputed age which deals heavily with assorted flying machines. This book is often cited to reinforce claims about the Vedas. It frequently finds its way into evidence in discussions on this forum, so it seems appropriate that this forum should have as complete a history as possible on that book available for reference. I'll be kicking off that effort with all the information I can find on the book and invite others to add to the pool of info.

So here is the best documented history of the book:

1903-1918: Pandit Subbaraya Shastry dictates the original work to his associate and Sanskrit scholar Sri. G. Venkatachala sharma. A total of 23 exercise books are generated by these two. This is the common source of all currently existing VS versions.

1919: Copies are sent to the Oriental Library at Baroda and the Oriental Research Institute at Poona, on June 3rd and August 19th, respectively.

1919-1923: Sri Subbaraya Shastry approves the addition of diagrams and descriptions to the exercise books. These are made by draftsman T.K. Ellappa.

1943: A new version is produced by Dayanand Bhavan. (Few details on this were available- feel free to add anything you know.)

1952: GR Josyer buys the original exercise books at an exhibition held by the International Academy of Sanskrit Research.

1959: The copy possessed by the Oriental Library, Baroda, is translated into Hindi, edited by Swami Brahma Muni Parivrajak Gurukul Kangdi, and published by Sarvadeshika Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, Dayanand Bhavan. This is known as the Bruhad Vimana Shastra. It becomes the reference for many researchers.

1979: GR Josyer publishes an English version of Vimanika Shastra based on the notebooks, with the additions added in 1923.


Aside from what can be demonstrated so far though, there are claims of an earlier works (thousands if not millions of years earlier) attributed to a mythological figure called Maharshi Bharadwaja. These are supposedly quoted in other existing books dating as far back as the 10th century. So far I have had no success verifying the existence of these books or their content, so that is one matter that could use further investigation.

The above info has come primarily from the library page on the site of India's Aeronautical Development Agency, linked below, and checked by google and wikipedia searches for relevant keywords.
ebusiness.ada.gov.in...–_2

EDIT: for spelling

[edit on 12-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

I think you may be getting a response from someone who has a fondness for very long posts. I'm not a pyschic, that's just a guess.

Here's my typical "long post":

Good call Vagabond to start this thread. As I reiterated many times, the VS is not the only evidence for the hi-tech civilisation of the past, but it certainly is the most compelling and is supported by physical evidence.

I will share some more information and collate the evidence for the VS alone and some information on the author, which is "mythological"

You did not mention the background prior to the VS being documented by Shastri so some words on that are necessary. Prior to 1903, of the VS being documented in the exercise books, the author Subbarya Shastri along with Swami Dayananda had helped the Indian scientist Dr Talpade in designing the Mercury ion engine(that was then flown in 1895) The earliest data of Swami Dayanada quoting from then Rig-Bashya Bhumika is dated 1875. Dr Talpade was constructing various experiments in designing an aircraft from the Sanskrit texts. The texts that are mentioned are:

Rig-Bashya Bhumika
Vyaamnaika Shastra
Samaranga Sutradhara

There may have been more still. It is likely that the Samranga Sutradhara by King Bhoja, was the main text used, as it descibes the Mercury engine in great detail. This is composed of some 200 stanzas on every aspect of air travel. The International Academy of Sanskrit research conducted a special study into this work and published its findings in a book entitled: Aeronautics, a Manuscript From the Prehistoric Past.

"Inside the circular air frame, place the mercury-engine with its solar mercury boiler at the aircraft center. By means of the power latent in the heated mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in a most marvellous manner. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by fire through solar or other sources the vimana (aircraft) develops thunder-power through the mercury." (British Indologist William Clarendon)

As has been discussed before this ion engine is indeed based on real principles and only recently NASA scientists have devised one. It describes how the fire produced from the iron containers was controlled to produce thrust. It even describes the sound as "like a roar of a lion" This was just one type of engine. There were many types of aircrafts, some used for terrestrial purposes and some used for space travel. The engines used for a space travel were in double decker disk shaped craft and had melodious humming sound - very characteristic of a modern UFO.

This thus concludes the earliest background of the VS.

Now, regarding the author Maharishi Baradwaja. Maharishi Baradwaja is one of the great 7 Rishis of Vedic India. He is referred to in Vedic texts and in Indian history many time. He is the author of the original Vyaamanika Shastra, the Anshu Bodhini and has even composed a few verses in the Rig Veda. His expertise was in machines. He wrote a great master work, which is now lost, called the "yantra Sarwaswa" or all about machines. The VS is supposedly part of this master work. It deals with 339 types of vehicles useful in travelling on land, 783 kinds of boats and ships to be used on water and 101 varieties of airships

The controversy is however, and certainly to be expected, is that the VS that is now available to us, is channeled - the information has been received psychically. Now, while psychic phenomena has been studied and demonstrated for several decades and even published in some science journals, mainstream science does not accept it. It is interesting to note that the mathematics of modular functions used in superstring theory is also "channeled" so to speak. However, doubt alone will not cirumvent the evidence supporting psychic phenomena.

So if we accept that the phenomena of "channeling" does indeed exist and that this information is being recieved from discarnate entities or from a "collective unconciousness" as theorised by Carl Jung or what in the Vedas is called the "akashic records" that is all information is contained within an etheric reality. Then our next question is - Is this really Maharishi Baradwaja, the famous seer of Vedic india?

According to Sanskritists, linguists and the many studies done. The common author is indeed Maharishi Baradwaja. That is because an original work of Maharishi Baradwaja is available, called the Anshu Bodhini, and while this text does not any reference to the VS, the VS does reference to the AB and the style and language they are written in is identical. While, they deal with different subjects, cosmology and aeronautics respectively, they both deal with advanced physics and metallurgy, from a technological perspective.

So, this is the first proof that Maharishi Bharadwaja is indeed the common author. The 2nd proof comes from the fact that as early as the 10th century, a text called the Vyaamanika Shastra - science of aeronautics, existed and was commented on by Medieval Indian scholars.

The 3rd proof comes from the VS alone. In the VS many references are made to other Rishis and their works to explain various devices. Some of those works still exist today. In fact it seems Maharishi Baradwaja is not actually writing his own treatise, but compiling a treatise of aeronautics based on others texts. We often see rather vague terms like; the 19th kind of smoke; the 7 kinds of wind; the 130th kind of speed to understand what these are we are referred to another text.

Here is table of these works, in the format: text: description of text: role in VS

Mantradhikaranam - explains mantras and their various powers. Used in Mantrika and Tantrika

Vayutatva prakarana - explains the harnessing of powers in the atmospheres - such as the free ions in the ionosphere: Used in Goodha and Langhana.
The works of architects like Viswakarma, Chaayaapurusha, Manu, Maya - this is for architecture of planes - Described in Kritika.

Shakti tantra - explains the various sources of power and energy. In another reference on this, the following is said

"Shakti Tantra by Sage Agastya - consisting of eight chapters in which Mulaprakriti, Maya etc., and 64 kinds of external Shaktis of bodies like those of the Sun, Moon and Air, Fire etc., are explained and their particular applications are also given. Atomic fission or nuclear science appears to form part of this science. " Used in Adrishya, Aparoksha.
Meghotpatti prakarana - explains the science of birth of clouds and how to use the energy inside them. Another source on this states:

"The science of clouds by Sage Atri. This work deals with 12 kinds of clouds, their characteristics, 12 kinds of rains, 64 kinds of lightnings, 32 varieties of thunderbolts etc." Used in Paroksha

Yantraangopasamhaara - explains the guiding operation causing the craft to contract. Used in Sankocha.

Akaashatantra - explains the guiding operation behind causing a craft to expand and stelath. Used in Vristia and Aakaashaakaara


Dhooma prakarana - explains how to create the holograms of a terrifying shape of a craft. Used in Viroop Karana

Tylaprakarana - explains how to create holograms of mountains, serpents, lions, tigers to confuse and amaze onlookers. Used in Roopaantara

Karaka prakarana - explains how to create holograms of heavenly damsels, flowers by using a special "karaka" force, mirros and smoke. Used in Suroopa.

Amshubodhinee - explains solar rays and light and how to harness the energy of the energy. Used in Jyothirbhaava.

Darpana Prakarana - explains the use of mirrors and lens for certain effects. Used in Tamomaya.

Shadgarbha-viveka - explains a certain cloud smoke, used in an effect to create an offensive weapon with an electric discharge. Used in Pralaya.

Rig-hridaya - explains the use of certain poisonous forces. Used in Vimukha
Shabda Prakaashikaa - explains the use of sounds and how to mechanically/electronically recreate sounds. In another reference on this, the following is said:

"Sabda Sastra By Kandika Rishi - It deals with sounds, echoes of moving and non-moving objects in creation. It also deals in five chapters with capturing or mechanically reproducing sounds, measuring their pitch, velocity, etc. " Used in Mahaashabda Vimochana as a sonic weapon to produce sound that produced intense pain.

Sowdaaminee kalaa’ - It deals with electronics, sound, television and scanning. In another reference on this, the following is said:

"Soudamini Kala by Sage Matanga - the science of photography, television and scanning. Also taught is the science of photographing interiors of mountains, earth and space." Used in Parashabda Grahaka to create a sound capturing machine.

Dhundinatha and Valmeeki Ganita - these deal with the atmospheres, aerial routes, and kind of turbulences a craft will experience in them

There is a total of 17 others texts referenced in the VS from other authors. From them, 4 of them are also referenced at other sites.

The fourth proof is the fact that the VS is not the only text dealing with aeronautics from the Vedic Era. There are many texts dealing with aviation and throughout the epics, Vedas and other Vedic texts there are references to many kinds of flying vehicles. So, it is all very consistent with all of the above evidence.

The fifth proof is the concrete and physical evidence of the materials and devices fabricated from the VS. I will reproduce them here again:

1. The Mercury Ion engine. It was flown unmanned in 1895 to 1500 feet on Bombay, chowpathy beach - before it came crashing down. The inventor, Dr Talpade, used a range of Sanskrit texts to design the craft. At this moment the VS did not exist in documented form, however the author of the VS and Swami Dayananda corroborated with Talpade to produce this. The main text was used was the Samaranga Sutradhara. This has been accredited by hitorian Evan Koshtka, who has described Talpade as the ‘first creator of an aircraft’. Indian scholars accept this as fact. The event was witnessed by the Maharaja of Baroda, the state justice and published by Kesari news paper.

2. The spectrometer. As discussed above, the spectrometer was manufactured at the National Metallurgical lab, India, using the instructions and exact metallurgical formulas as prescribed in the ancient Anshu Bodhini by Maharishi Baradwaja, which is a cosmological text on the evolution of the universe and how the various radiations can be measured. This has also been published in the INSA science journals.

3. Tamogarbha loha: Already produced in the laboratory, light in weight, black in color, found to be resistant to acids. Displayed high level of absorption for laser light (from red Ruby laser - as observed by Prof. Robert Anderson of San Jose State University during his visit to India in December 1991). Some chemical and other properties found to be unique-patentable new alloy. This alloy was used in 'Tamo Yantra' in the Vimana Shastra for the purposes of absorption of light escaping from a photochemical reaction which resulted in absorption of light, thereby generating 'darkness'.

4. Pancha Loha (not the Panchaloha for making idols): A copper alloy, which is highly malleable and also highly corrosion resistant to moisture and salt (NaCl) water. Already produced and characterized to possess golden yellow Color (Hema Varnam). High machinability and on microstructure analysis found to be single-phase alloy with high malleability ('mridulam') and not found listed in ASM Reference (1988).

5. Arama Tamra: A copper alloy zinc, lead and iron of light absorption. Already produced and possesses golden yellow to reddish tinge. Brittle, light and hard, on microstructure analysis found to be two-phase alloy. Very hard, Young's modulus 16.9 (described in Sanskrit text as 'Dridham') not listed in ASM Reference (1988).

Source: Indian scientist Dr. C.S.R. Prabhu. The materials were developed at NML, IIT(Bombay) and BSC(Birla Science centre)

6. Chumbakamani, Paragrandhika-drava alloys. These were developed at IIT Bombay. Chumbakarmani is a special crystal used in some of the devices quoted in the VS.

7. Prakasha Stambhana Bhida Loha, this was also developed at the National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur, 1999. It was developed to be used in Baradwaja's spectromemter, because of it's high infrared absorption capability as one of the lens on it. It is a glass like material with stealth properties, because of it's high light absorption.


Now, finally as an aside we will consider some of the technologies described in the VS.

The technology of creating invisibility by attracting light is now demonstrated by the fabrication of such materials as the Tamogarbha Loha and the Prakasha Stambhana Loha. The Tamogarbh is used in Tamo-maya(the illusion of darkness)

Another stealth described, is what we today call "adaptive camoflage" this is when an object becomes indistinguiable from the surroundings. This is described in "

29. Aakaashaakaara. : “According to ‘Aakaasha-tantra’, by mixing black mica solution with neem and bhoonaaga decoctions and smearing the solution on the outer body of the vimana made of mica plates and exposing to solar rays, the plane will look like the sky and becomes indistinguishable."

These mica plates are already covering the body of the craft. Then, a substance produced by the reaction of black mica solution with other chemicals is used and smeared over the plates. As I outlineed before, Mica is a sillicate mineral, and this chemical reaction would likely produce silicon. Marrying silicon onto Mica is what will produce a photoelectric display plate. When, exposed to solar rays, the craft becomes indistinguishable from the sky, this is because the Mica plates are connected by a network of fibre optics, thus causing a projection on the opposite side of the craft. This is the technology behind JPL's optical stealth technology, based on the Japanese scientist's "invisiblity cloak"

Now look at the following:

"Through a sequence of reflecting mirrors, images/ pictures are captured and developed in-situ through chemical process. Special reflector called chumbakamani having a property of absorbing reflection from objects is used in the contraption. Solar rays and electric current are made to act on an acid vessel containing the crystal Chumbakamani. Electrified rays from the crystal are made to impinge on a downward facing mirror and this in turn will scan the ground underneath to take pictures of mines and explosives. The pictures are amplified and communicated to the pilot on a specially prepared screen"

Now, it is difficult to say if this technology works or not, because we don't have anything like this. Yet, what is interesting is how it uses a sequence of reflecting mirrors made by the special crystal "Chumbakamani" to capture images, which are then developed chemically at the same time and projected onto a special screen. The crystal has a quality of absorbing a reflection, even from underground.

So, it does appear that Maharishi Bharadwaja is indeed the author and the evidence is consistent with the physical, scientific, literary and historical evidence.

[edit on 13-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The earliest data of Swami Dayanada quoting from then Rig-Bashya Bhumika is dated 1875. Dr Talpade was constructing various experiments in designing an aircraft from the Sanskrit texts. The texts that are mentioned are:
Rig-Bashya Bhumika, Vyaamnaika Shastra, Samaranga Sutradhara

I would be interested if you could help me find quotes of the exact content in Rig-Bashya Bhumika or in Dayanada's commentary on that work. My suspicion of their usefulness is caused mainly be a quote from the ADA's website.

Swany Dayananda Sarswathi, a towering scholar of the last century, while referring to flying machines in his commentary on Rig-Veda Bhashya Bhumika, narrates certain aspects of propulsive thrust of vimanas in directional control. This was in 1875.
Another book called ‘Vimana vamanam’ authored by Nathumal Brahmachari, finds its place in Udaipur palace library.
For practical purposes, only “Vymanika Shastra” and ‘Bruhad Vimana shastra’ can be taken as reference,

It is extremely curious to me that the works from before this century were omitted from consideration by the Indian MOD's Aerodynamic Development Agency, and also strange that they fail to even mention Samaranga Sutradhara. Although this certainly is not enough to wholly discredit those books, it does prompt curiousity and underscore the need to investigate exactly what is in them and when it was written.

At this point, it seems that although other works such as Samranga Sutradhara do exist (and their contents at this point do not seem to be conclusively demonstrated as being accurate or high-tech, but thats really another subject), the VS itself does not appear to have any background beyond 1903 unless we conclude that the current VS is in fact an accurate channeling on a much older lost work. It is also interesting to note that work on the VS apparently started the same year the Wright Brothers made the world's first manned flight. What an odd year to be suddenly inspired to write about aircraft.

The controversy is however, and certainly to be expected, is that the VS that is now available to us, is channeled - the information has been received psychically. (snip)
However, doubt alone will not cirumvent the evidence supporting psychic phenomena.

Then perhaps you'd like a picture from the VS which proves that the drawings which were dictated to an engineer by Subbaraya Sastry in 1923 just happen to be right on par with the technology of 1923. Pistons, electric motors, propellers, etc. If my eyes don't decieve me it actually has flapping wings as well. Obviously it never flew. This has relevance to the supposed 1895 flight as well. Why would somebody who is alleged to have played a role in designing an ion-engine powered aircraft have gone on to design this hunk of junk with inferior technology?

So if we accept that the phenomena of "channeling" does indeed exist and that this information is being recieved from discarnate entities or from a "collective unconciousness" as theorised by Carl Jung or what in the Vedas is called the "akashic records" that is all information is contained within an etheric reality.

But "we" don't, because some of some of us are waiting for something empirical which can be reliably tested and reproduced by believers and skeptics alike.

1. The Mercury Ion engine. It was flown unmanned in 1895 to 1500 feet on Bombay, chowpathy beach - before it came crashing down. The inventor, Dr Talpade, used a range of Sanskrit texts to design the craft.

At least you had one "proof" that didn't come AFTER the invention of the aircraft. It's a shame that the aircraft wasn't photographed by the newspapers that covered it or that the experiment wasn't ever repeated.
If an aircraft with an ion engine was invented in a British colony and funded by the Maharaja of Baroda, then why didn't the British pioneer this technology for military purposes, especially during and after WWI when the importance of military aircraft was established? It is even claimed by some that an un-named British company acquired the remains of the aircraft after Talpade died in 1916, yet the Allies didn't produce an ion engine to help sweep the Nazi Luftwaffe from the skies. Why is that?

[edit on 14-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

Then perhaps you'd like a picture from the VS which proves that the drawings which were dictated to an engineer by Subbaraya Sastry in 1923 just happen to be right on par with the technology of 1923. Pistons, electric motors, propellers, etc. If my eyes don't decieve me it actually has flapping wings as well. Obviously it never flew. This has relevance to the supposed 1895 flight as well. Why would somebody who is alleged to have played a role in designing an ion-engine powered aircraft have gone on to design this hunk of junk with inferior technology?

The drawings and scehmatics were not originally in the VS. This was added later by Subbaraya Shastry in 1923, and drawn by an engineer whom he dictated too. So, this is why the bias creeps in. Hence why the ADA are not taking the drawings seriously. The translations by GR Joyser are based on the original 23 exercise books.

Since then it has been translated by a team of Sanskrit scholars. Much of the technologies described in the VS are not even available today. The Mercury Ion Engine was not designed by Subbarya Shastry. It was designed by an Indian scientist Talpade. Shastry and Swami Dayanada simply assited him.

Aerodynamic Development Agency, and also strange that they fail to even mention Samaranga Sutradhara.

They do mention it. As I said Talpade used many texts.

Samarangana sootradhara of King Bhojaraja unveils the use of mercury in engines for aviation use very distinctly. Briefly explaining the operation of this type of engine, western researchers, quoting this treatise, mention this as a heating device placed underneath to cause ignition, triggering the potent energy in mercury to drive the whirlwind in motion. This produces highly intense impulse catapaulting the flying machine into air instantaneously.

But "we" don't, because some of some of us are waiting for something empirical which can be reliably tested and reproduced by believers and skeptics alike.

I think 7 devices and materials being fabricated by IIT's, NML, BSC and a team of scientists from ISRO and others and documented in the science journal of INSA is very empirical evidence for the veracity of the phenomena of the channeling and the channeled text. There is an entire body of evidence by parapsychologists, some which are published in some prestigious science journals. There is evidence. It is only scientific dogmatism about psychic phenomena that denies that this is a real phenomena.

If an aircraft with an ion engine was invented in a British colony and funded by the Maharaja of Baroda, then why didn't the British pioneer this technology for military purposes, especially during and after WWI when the importance of military aircraft was established? It is even claimed by some that an un-named British company acquired the remains of the aircraft after Talpade died in 1916, yet the Allies didn't produce an ion engine to help sweep the Nazi Luftwaffe from the skies. Why is that?

The air craft had crashed remember? It was an unmanned test flight. At this point the British did not even understand propeller flight, so how were they going to design a mercury ion engine from a crashed plane from 1500 feet in the air. The British were very pertubed that an Indian scientist had flown a craft. I don't think they were willing to accept that that ancient Sanskrit texts were used for this. You could call it Christian pride, if you will.

We are talking about a time when Imperialists Sanskritists were involved in a conspiracy to make Vedic culture look primitive and barbaric. This is a time when the Encylopedia Britannica, publically derided India and it's culture. The main reason this was done, because the British could not accept a superior pagan civilisation and the Aryan heritage of Europeans.

However, as you mention Nazis, there is actually some reason to believe that the Nazi's had devised their pulse jet engies and other technology using Sanskrit texts. I am not sure how true this is, but considering the fasicnation of the Nazi's with the Aryans and Sanskrit. It may well be true. I would appreciate some research into this.

Do you know it is so interesting to note, that it was an Italien scientist, Dr Robert Pinnoti at an ISRO meeting, telling them to take their own literature seriously, that got the Indian scientific community and government's research and studies into the VS and other Sanskrit texts, seriously.

What is very telling, VS is just one of many of ancient texts on aeronautics. I was surprised when I learnt there were more. As what got me interested in vedic civilisation was the VS and I truly thought it was the only proof. Then I learnt about the Vaiseshika Sutras, the Anshu Bodhini, Pingla and Panini Sutras and other Sanskrit texts and Ayurveda. Then the archaelogical evidence of ancient steel and zink mines and planned cities.

In every field I have researched, I see great advancement, sophistication. The Sanskrit language itself is extremely sophisticated by itself. There is the hallmark of great scientific advancement in everything in the Vedic culture.

[edit on 14-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The drawings and scehmatics were not originally in the VS. This was added later by Subbaraya Shastry in 1923, and drawn by an engineer whom he dictated too. So, this is why the bias creeps in. Hence why the ADA are not taking the drawings seriously. The translations by GR Joyser are based on the original 23 exercise books.

The drawings were added to the excercise books which GR Josyer bought and are in his 1979 translation based on those books. Why did Subbaraya Shastry let the engineer draw something that looked like 1923 technology if he was dictating the description of a more advanced aircraft as described by works he channeled from the "akashic records"?

The Mercury Ion Engine was not designed by Subbarya Shastry. It was designed by an Indian scientist Talpade. Shastry and Swami Dayanada simply assited him.

1. I was under the impression that Talpade was a sanskrit scholar, not a scientist.
2. The fact remains that Shastry is supposed to have helped design an advanced aircraft in 1895, dictated a work on advanced aircraft between 1903 and 1923, but then could not dictate the design of an advanced aircraft in 1923.

I think 7 devices and materials being fabricated by IIT's, NML, BSC and a team of scientists from ISRO and others and documented in the science journal of INSA is very empirical evidence for the veracity of the phenomena of the channeling and the channeled text.

These materials were designed decades after the book came out by experts in their field who probably could have made the discoveries anyway, and only after technology had reached the point where such developments were only to be expected.
20,000 Leagues Under The Sea was written only 14 years before the first real electric-powered submarine was produced, and even in that case it's not because the book contibuted anything to the design of ships, only that it acted as inspiration to creative people who tried and succeeded in making a theoretical piece of machinery work. This seems to be exactly what has happened with VS as well.

The ADA describes the process by which materials were "discovered" in the VS.

Laboratory development of materials has gone through the following process.
· Understanding of poetic form of Sanskrit version.
· Convert to prose form, decode the terms wherever required and arrive at ingredients.
· Use modern equivalents / substitutes, wherever required.
· Determine proportions of mixing
· Use process details to obtain the materials.

So you adapt from poetic language to practical language, possibly taking license in that process. Then you "decode" the words and/or completely disregard them in favor of substitutes, then you do research and development on the proper mixing and assembly.
So if my poem says "God will protect me, he will make the stones and the soil my armies." They can say that stone was poetic for minerals/ore, decode that to mean specific kinds of metal or alloys. They can traslate soil to be clay and decode/substitute modern ceramic materials. Then they do research and development on how to combine them and how they will work, and next thing you know, they will be giving me credit for designing the chobham armor on our tanks. Of course the real equation looks like this:
Almost useless words of inspiration + research and development by experts = technological advances.

As for the validity of pyschic sources, I will only be convinced by the presentation of experiments which can confirm the science of it in the classroom or lab. I invite you to tell me which scientific journals and which editions I could look up in order to read the results of experiments which prove the reliability of psychic techniques. If you can show me real scientific proof of psychic abilities I will get it published in the Los Angeles Times, even if it means buying ad space to do so.

The air craft had crashed remember? It was an unmanned test flight. At this point the British did not even understand propeller flight, so how were they going to design a mercury ion engine from a crashed plane from 1500 feet in the air.

Easy, they could have let the Indian rulers who they controlled continue funding this research then stole it. The claim that the British slammed the door on this development and then refused to re-open it either 8 years later after the Wright Bros flew or in 1914-1916 (the years of WWI during which Talpade was alive) is a claim that the British would cut off their nose to spite their face.
Also the propeller was known to the British at the time, it had just never been used for powered flight. Chinese flying tops and Da Vinci's helicopter concept had been known to Europe for over 400 years.
I don't believe that pride was the problem. British "Christian Pride" never stopped them from using elite Nepalese mercinaries afterall. For one reason or another they did not believe that Talpade could successfully build a working and useful aircraft and they would not allow the Indian government to fund it as a result. Maybe (i'm not saying for sure because I honestly do not know) it was because Talpade's flight was seen as a failure on one level or another (I wasn't there and i've never seen the design. Maybe it wasn't practical, maybe it was doomed to crash every time, or maybe the British messed up and missed an opportunity.)

We are talking about a time when Imperialists Sanskritists were involved in a conspiracy to make Vedic culture look primitive and barbaric.

Granted that European thought and scholarship were tainted by racism and as a result by a desire to maintain the fallacy of a fair-skinned Aryan race of which Europeans were the best representatives. There is no question that the British refused to acknowledge the value of Indian culture. There is question about exactly how much they supressed, and that question can be answered in considerable part by archaeology and anthropology. Scientific study has revealed that a great deal of European culture is the result of contact and intermingling with Indo-Iranians and various descendants thereof. Scientific study has not postively proven the existence of a hyper-technological ancient civilization belonging either to Indo-Iranian (read Aryan) culture or any other. Furthermore, Scientific study can not prove such a thing as superiority in terms of racial or cultural potential, especially considering the common heritage of Indians and Europeans. (This of course being a reference to our discussion of "superiority" in the Aryan race thread www.abovetopsecret.com...')

However, as you mention Nazis, there is actually some reason to believe that the Nazi's had devised their pulse jet engies and other technology using Sanskrit texts. I am not sure how true this is, but considering the fasicnation of the Nazi's with the Aryans and Sanskrit. It may well be true. I would appreciate some research into this.

You'll have to give me a little time but I do infact have a tremendous interest in some of the secret programs which the Germans were carrying out in the 40s. If I can find any sources of substantial credibility about the extent of their developments and the exact process by which they were reached I would be happy to share that.
Martin Wiberg is generally acknolwedged as the inventor of the pulsejet engine- he lived in Sweden from 1826-1905 and the exact date of his invention is not recorded in wikipedia. This would of course pre-date German interest in Eastern texts, but would not pre-date all of the texts themselves, which leaves the subject deserving of further research.

The reason the pulsejet wasn't really used much until the Nazis got their hands on it was just because it was very loud and used a lot of fuel. Unless your only consideration was that the engine had to be so cheap that you could afford to crash it every single time it flew, there was really no reason to use the pulsejet in anything.

Vagabond, you seem to be under the impression
that you have debunked this. You are even shamelessly
advertising this in your avatar. You have done no such thing.
I burst out laughing when I saw your avatar.

Have you actually taken into account the physical chemical analysis reports from Indian scientists? There are very detailed reports, that are published in the INSA science journals.

If you really are seriously about a skeptical investigation. Then obtain these journals and present a thesis here. However, if you think simply by saying you've "debunked" the VS, you "debunked" then you're acting like a deluded fool.

Your argument "they mistranslated it and then ended up with an actual new materials with the stated properties or functions or device that works" not only makes me laugh, but will make the entire team of Indian scientists and scholars laugh too. I won't take you seriously, if this is your idea of "debunking" and no one else who is honest will as well.

Further more, you are indirectly making the assertion that Indian scientists from prestigious institutes and organizations INSA, ISRO, ADA, HAL, NML, IITs - very reputable and world renown organizations are involved in some conspiracy on VS for whatever gain. That is an outlandish claim, and I wonder if you have anything to substantiate this?

As for psychic phenomena. There is a vast body of evidence to support it, such as the studies into the ganzfeld technique which has produced very high hit results. There is a huge body of evidence for parapsychological phenomena that has been accumulated by scientists and researchers over the decades. If you are going to debunk this all, you better do more, than just say "I debunked it" or "I did not read it in the LA times"

Stop making blanket claims. I suggest you edit out the avatar, before you actually do really debunk it, much less debunk it to death and not just claim to. Because you are lying to yourself, to me whose done a lot of research, and to others. You are insulting our intelligence; you are insulting your own. I actually want you to debunk this. Because, I believe it is a fact now, given the mass of evidence. If it is not, then I need someone to convince me otherwise.

[edit on 21-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Vagabond, you seem to be under the impression
that you have debunked this. You are even shamelessly
advertising this in your avatar. You have done no such thing.
I burst out laughing when I saw your avatar.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was in fact my intention to make light of something which just happens to lend itself easily to being made light of, and see if you noticed.

As for the VS itself- we've already been over it. We have it even on the authority of Shastry himself that the VS was channelled and the notebooks produced between 1903 and 1923. There is no dispute for chemical analysis to resolve. The VS as we know it today began to be assembled after the Wright brothers flew, was completed in 1923, and was supplimented by the art in my avatar as dictated by the very man who dictated the VS. The art in my avatar is representative of the technology in the VS. I won't bother to draw a conclusion- we'll let the reader decide.

If you really are seriously about a skeptical investigation. Then obtain these journals and present a thesis here. However, if you think simply by saying you've "debunked" the VS, you "debunked" then you're acting like a deluded fool.

Let me be as clear as I know how indigo. A man wrote a book about advanced aircraft, then dictated a drawing of the advanced aircraft, and the result was the ridiculous contraption currently featured on my avatar, which resembles a winged steam ship. Your only defense against this damning evidence is that you would like for me to use bigger words and present my case in a more complex form so that it can be called a thesis. My thesis is that if the writer of a book on advanced aircraft can not dictate the design of a function aircraft at all, it stands to reason that his book has nothing of value to say about the design of aircraft, except perhaps as a cautionary example.

Your argument "they mistranslated it and then ended up with an actual new materials with the stated properties or functions or device that works" not only makes me laugh, but will make the entire team of Indian scientists and scholars laugh too. I won't take you seriously, if this is your idea of "debunking" and no one else who is honest will as well.

It has always been your favorite game to mangle my words and spit them back in some ridiculous form, contrasted with the opinions of revisionist scholars in India who are quite simply exceeding the evidence to create a glorious history for a nation which in recent times remembers only servitude and poverty.
If you're done playing word games on tangent points and referring to psuedo-scholars, maybe now you'd like to explain why the writer of a manual on aeronautics could draw a picture that even remotely resembled a functional aircraft.

Further more, you are indirectly making the assertion that Indian scientists from prestigious institutes and organizations INSA, ISRO, ADA, HAL, NML, IITs - very reputable and world renown organizations are involved in some conspiracy on VS for whatever gain. That is an outlandish claim, and I wonder if you have anything to substantiate this?

Actually if you'll look above I'm being pretty explicit about it now. Every culture does this. The Encyclopedia Britannica, which you never miss a chance to attack for it's mischaracterizations of Indian culture, is considered very reputable in its own nation as well. Funny how that works. It's called revisionism- scholars from almost all nations engage in it on some level whenever there is an issue which lends itself to the practice.

As for psychic phenomena. There is a vast body of evidence to support it, such as the studies into the ganzfeld technique which has produced very high hit results. There is a huge body of evidence for parapsychological phenomena that has been accumulated by scientists and researchers over the decades. If you are going to debunk this all, you better do more, than just say "I debunked it" or "I did not read it in the LA times"

I never said I debunked psychic phenomenon- I simply said that because it can not be consistently reproduced in the lab that it is not a strong science. This is completely accurate. Furthermore, even if psychic phenomenon is taken to be a reality, we must then test the authenticity of the VS. It fails that test readily because without independent knowledge it was not possible for the writer, even with the cooperation of an engineer, to design an aerodynamic craft.
Could I just write anything I please, have it be dreadfully vague and patently useless apart from indepenent knowledge, and claim that it was a message in a bottle from aliens, just because we happen to know that a message in a bottle is possible? Then how would the reality of psychic phenomenon do anything for the reliablity of an aerodynamics manual that doesn't contain any stand-alone information on aerodynamics?

Stop making blanket claims.

You first my old freind.

I suggest you edit out the avatar,before you actually do really debunk it, much less debunk it to death and not just claim to.

It is noted for the record that Indigos suggestion has been entirely ignored.

to me whose done a lot of research,

You know the old cliche about book smarts and street smarts? You've got a bunch of names memorized- I've got a technical drawing from an aeronautics manual which clearly can't achieve flight. Now if we wanted to write a detailed report about a worthless forgery of an ancient work, hands down you'd be the one to write it. But if we just wanted to spot the forgery- that's where I come in.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
I think you may be getting a response from someone who has a fondness for very long posts. I'm not a pyschic, that's just a guess.

Dude, do know the numbers for this coming weekends lottery?

Vagabond,

You are free to keep this avatar. However, it's as good as
someone else on this forum saying "Aliens and UFO's debunked"
or "Paranormal debunked" or "NWO debunked" It's an opinion stated as fact.
I am sure that is against ATS rules. However, if you want to maintain
this delusion, then what can I say - a fools paradise.

I am going to ignore the crux of your post. As it basically just boils
down to "They're all lying" and when you say all, you mean basically
any Indian research or scientific intellectual organization. I think that's racism -
discriminating on the basis of race.

Indian Space Research Organization, Aeronautics and Defence Agency, Indian Institute of technology, Indian science academy, the Indian national metallurgical lab, International academey of Sanskrit, Hindustan zinc ltd. Very well established and old organizations and world renown. However, not to our friend Vagabond, who catagorises them as "psuedo intellectuals" that are involved in some conspiracy to ahem "revise history" for whatever gain and are designing new materials and devices never before created and not listed for a grande ancient hoax.

Now, that is a very extraordinary claim just border-lining on slander and racial discrimination. Now, I wonder if Vagabond can back it up? I have already presented pages and pages over several weeks of evidence from the Indians. I would be impressed if you can even produce a line of evidence for your claims.

Finally, the photographs you are showing, are not even recognised by the Indian scientific and intellectual community. Because, they were not a part of the original channeled text.

To beat a dead horse even further, why do they need to prove Ancient India had aircraft to "revise history" in their favor? What purpose does that serve? Further, if that was indeed the case, then why have they not declared this openly in the global press already. Finally, why for several decades and only till an Italian scientist, Robert Pinnoti, did the Indian scientific community start taking it seriously? I suppose Dr Robert Pinnoti was the grande orchestrator of this conspiracy?

I have read some very outlandish conspiracies at ATS. But, this conspiracy, which is ironically a conspiracy to end a conspiracy, is the most ludicrous on this site. In fact, even Lizardamok's lizards attacking is more plausible than this. It's up there with UFO are pilots chasing fireflies or the wind blowing the stars.

You call all these experts "psuedo-intellectuals" if they read your pitiful attempt at "debunking" they would call you a pseduoskeptic. As someone said in my original thread "Indigo has presented a case that needs to be debunked" when are you going to start?

Can anyone here debunk the evidence I have presented? I don't deal with doubts. Can anyone actually properly and categorically debunk this, because if you can't, then it must mean it's true.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Can anyone actually properly and categorically debunk this, because if you can't, then it must mean it's true.

That's one hell of a statement!

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
I think you may be getting a response from someone who has a fondness for very long posts. I'm not a pyschic, that's just a guess.

Dude, do know the numbers for this coming weekends lottery?

If only everything in life were this predictable.

Vagabond - fantastic stuff BTW:

You have voted The Vagabond for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I wish I had the time for such good research.

Indigo - he really has got you rattled hasn't he? I can tell because you start playing the "race card" and have essentially called Vagabond a racist for not believing all your ridiculous claims for book written in the early 20th century. Not a single iota of what Vagabond has said is racist, and I think you should retract your slanderous claims.

The only problem I have with Vagabond's avatar is that I actually can't see anything to debunk in the VS. It was written about 100 years ago and doesn't describe any technology that wasn't around then - most of it sounds like something from a Jules Verne novel - the crappy "aircraft" diagrams presented above being a case in point.

I'm sure elements of the VS have acted as an inspiration for Indian scientists, but art and fiction have always done this - and that is all the VS is: fiction.


EDIT: spelling


[edit on 22/3/05 by FatherLukeDuke]

Fatherlukeduke, perhaps you will do Vagabonds work for him. It's still the same people that were doubting this a few weeks ago, and nothing has changed. You still have not debunked this.

I am not playing the "race card" because Vagabond does not believe. I am just calling him out for racial discrimination and slander. This is what this is.
The organizations I have outlined are the Indian counterparts of the US NASA, MIT, DARPA, AAS, Harvard, Boing etc

In fact, the IIT's are purported by times to the the top 10 best colleges in Asia for science and technology. ISRO is the one of the most advanced space research organizations in the world.

Now, Vagabond is alleging that all of these organizations are involved in a conspiracy to make Indians and Hindus look good. So, as I said, this argument is based on racial grounds. For Vagabond, anything in the LA times is enough. Yet, it is not enough when the entire scientific community of Indians are involved?

If it published in a western science journal, then it is proof, but if it's published in an Indian science journal, it is not? Western scientists and scholars are more qualified to speak on Indian history, than Indian "pseudo intellectual" scholars? This is very similar to the kind of Euro-centric and racist attitudes of 19th century England. It was vile then - it still is.

It's quite clear this is about racism. There is no other word for it. Hence, why I would appreciate our friend actually substantiates what he says or retract his claim and let a real skeptic handle this.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

I flew this morning. I flapped my arms and leapt into the air.
You cant prove i didnt, therefore its true!

Indigo you still hvent provided any proof for your ideas. You just say its there. Think about things for a minute, a mercury ion engine? what does that mean? has it ever been considered by scientists today?

As i have said over and over again: You Need Proof.

Three words, one challenge! Go for it!

(disclaimer-proof must be real, not old stories/legends, physical evidence that defies all explanation except crazy high tech theories)

Indigo you still hvent provided any proof for your ideas. You just say its there. Think about things for a minute, a mercury ion engine? what does that mean? has it ever been considered by scientists today?

As i have said over and over again: You Need Proof.

Sigh
There are at least three/four threads on this. In these threads all the proofs you need are available. If you want them - you go read them.

I was actually content in leaving this issue, as you may notice I have not responded for a week or so to these threads. That is because I am not going to waste my time any further. I provided all the evidence. It is all here documented on our very own ATS. It is the most documented single case on ATS. Thanks to several weeks of painstreaking research.

I am not going to have people like you insult my efforts by pretending to ask for proof, even though you have been given it, when it is really all about you wanting to maintain your beliefs. Why, should I waste my time?

I know my case is stronger and quite a few have said this. It's much stronger - because it is supported by evidence - lots of it. It's evidence against doubts and dogma.

The next I respond to this thread, will be someone who actually has some concrete to say FOR or AGAINST VS. Until then, I more than convinced of how advanced ancient civilisation was. I don't play with fallacies such "where is the physical evidence" I am sure you have a lot physical evidence that the earth is round, right?

You seem to think it is a fact that the Incans had balloons. Where is the physical evidence? I am not going to waste my time on such blantant hypocrisy.

As I said. It is still the same people who were doubting several weeks ago. You have nothing new to say. When you do, we'll talk. However, the more you talk, despite the evidence against you, the more bad you are going to look.

I am very honest, commited and sincere about the truth. That is why I vigorously researched this case. And I just don't appreciate psedoskeptics telling me "no proof" "no evidence "all lies"

As I said, do you even have a line of evidence for the negative? If you don't do yourself a favour and shut up and let the real researchers discuss


[edit on 22-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Fatherlukeduke, perhaps you will do Vagabonds work for him. It's still the same people that were doubting this a few weeks ago,

Still the same people? The 99.99999% of the world who don't believe your wild claims?

I am not playing the "race card" because Vagabond does not believe. I am just calling him out for racial discrimination and slander.

Don't you see they paradox in these statements? Playing the race card means accusing someone of racism just because you are losing the argument. If you want to accuse him of cultural bias then you may have a case, as everyone is culturally biased, including yourself. However there is absolutely nothing in Vagabond's statements that is racist, and you really should stop saying that there is.

For Vagabond, anything in the LA times is enough.

He never said that, you are twisting his words again. He said if you had proof of psychic abilities he would get it published in the LA Times even if he had to pay for it himself.

Yet, it is not enough when the entire scientific community of Indians are involved?

Entire scientific community? Oh yeah?

If it published in a western science journal, then it is proof, but if it's published in an Indian science journal, it is not?

Absolutely no problem with Indian scientific journals - which ones are you referring to? Peer reviewed ones I presume? If you were to give us actual references we could look up and read it might strengthen your case somewhat, though I doubt it.

Thanks for the vote padre- dog bless you. Speaking of which, perhaps you could drill a hole in my head to let out the demon of dyslexia?

Indigo has some dyslexia of her own that you might want to help her out with too. She's Ignoring Deniance rather than bothering to respond to the very crucial question of why a book entitled "science of aeronautics" did not advance our knowledge of aeronautics, and requires research creative alteration and extensive scientific research and development to yield results even now that we have independent knowledge.

As for me being a racist- I'm not politically correct, I'll concede that much. I think that India has developed a cultural bias that favors revisionism to glorify pre-colonial India over their Western conquerors. That is probably politically incorrect. I realize that it's not pleasant to be reminded of bad things that happened to ones nation. It is however a valid hypothesis as to why India is the only nation where the VS is held in such high regard, especially considering the less then impressive actual results they have gotten from the study of the VS. They still import western aircraft, and if memory serves they're planning to import yet another generation of MiGs (the so-called "raptor killer" design) in the coming years.

did you two guys (yes Indigo is a guy) cover or touch this one yet??

Ancient Sanskrit from India tell of UFO visit in 4,000 B.C.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
did you two guys (yes Indigo is a guy) cover or touch this one yet??

A thousand apologies- I have no idea how I got an idea to the contrary, but somehow it just got into my head. Somebody ought to have corrected me a long time ago.

And no I haven't seen that link yet- I'm about to though.

Call me old fashioned (and many do) but when i write essays on the location of anglo saxon villages and other exciting things my course requires i am expected to provide evidence for the location of these villages in the form of archaeological reports, written work of others and occasionally written sources from the time.

When put together the three things constitute proof.

Indigo you could never pass a basic history course with your attitude to science and research. 'You cant prove it wrong therefore its true' is an awful arguement put by those whose understanding of a subject only goes so far as the website they consult.

I keep asking for physical proof. Big requirement in any historical or scientific journal. They get very annoyed when no evidence is presented. Observe the mockery of Velikovsky and his ideas because, like you, he could only read ancient mythhs and legends with the occasional weird book to support his beleifs.

I beleive the Nazca (not inca, different culture, Nazca provided some of the foundations for the inca) built ballons because it explains the Nazca Lines in a far more compelling way than anything put foreward by you or Von Daiken. Also the proof of this, while I admit isnt perfect if the fact that a ballon was built using materials and techniques available at the time and it was flown! Photos were taken, things were written down. Reasonable evidence, not conclusive but enough for me.

Has anyone built and flown your mercury ion engine? Nope!

As for my proof to the contrary. No remains have been found, no writings by others, no cluster of weird artefacts. Not even an ancient toothpick. Nothing at all.

I am not a psuedoskeptic, i am a genuine skeptic! There is a big difference. I am also quite good at research. I get good marks in the work i have to do, i have come to reasonable conclusions in my work by assesing the evidence. I apologise if i called you a liar at some point, though i dont recall doing it. I do beleive however that your arguement could not stand up to the most basic scrutiny by a trained scholar, and however much disdain you hold them in its them you have to convince.

Learnt to accpet critisicm for your ideas, because if you ever try and publish them it will get worse and worse. Also learn better arguements that 'you cant prove me wrong so therefore i must be right'. You are attempting to rewrite almost the entire prehistory of man. The burden of proof rests on you im afraid, no the skeptics, you have to proove your arguements, and however much you protest you havent managed that yet.

Keep trying though...theres always tomorrow