Ammon Bundy Wants National Effort to Buck Coronavirus Rules

originally posted by: Willtell

True, free people have power, but again, not unlimited power.

Our power is only limited in that we can't use it to limit other people's power. That includes government power.

Other people don't have the power to relinquish my protected freedoms and I am not infringing on their freedoms by exercising my own.

Truly, the government is supposed to use its power to suspend Constitutional rights as narrowly as possible. The SCOTUS has said so many times. We need to be careful about broad sweeping measures.

Case in point, when Trump talked about limiting travel between NY and bordering states, that suggestion was unlawfully broad.

The federal code relevant to those executory regulations only provides for limiting travel for people who are infected or reasonably believed to be infected.

If I am not infected and there's no reasonable belief that I am, it is my right to travel between states and I am not infringing on anyone else's rights by exercising my own.

Be on the lookout for grossly broad actions that sound like they are intended to be temporary, but they are crafted with the intent to be extended...and extended some more. Like the Patriot Act...I know, I know...

My whole worry here in this is not the principle of freedom involved though I recognize that is important, of course. But if we presume the PTB has bad intentions then that is a problem but we have to assume they don’t have bad intentions until we know otherwise through evidence not an automatic religious-like inclination to a conspiracy theory.

My worry is the people losing income, not being able to pay the rent and eating.
That should be our main interest here IMO.

The governments doing this need a national program to have rent subsidies or a national rent-free holiday program and a program to keep the banks from, for example, foreclosing on people’s homes and to not punish landlords who will be greatly affected by this.

We need a socialistic program for the duration of this epidemic.
And an all hands-on deck approach.

a reply to: Willtell

If this is used to implement expanded socialism in the US, then that's proof the government does have bad intentions. You're right, people need to be able to pay their bills and buy food... that's why this nonsense should end immediately and people be allowed to return to their businesses, their jobs, their lives.

originally posted by: Schmoe11
a reply to: MotherMayEye

True, but then the government would know all about it if they monitor us loony conspiracy nuts. They more I think about it, the more daunting the logistics of it all.

They should know. I want them to know!

They need to know what our limits are and how far they can push it before there are consequences. It's our job to keep them in check.

In a situation that's evolving so fast in such extreme ways, it's fair that the people need to be organized because the court system is too formal and inaccessible for a bunch of people thrown into this situation and have to scramble to organize our own response to this crisis.

a reply to: MotherMayEye


I am an ardent conspiracy theorist, 911, JFK, etc.… and often accuse power of being misused for sinister intent.

It is something that is always there even in normal times

But this is a situation where certain things may be justified to protect the common good and the individual.

If their intentions are bad and this is actually an attempt to do some nefarious power grab of apocalyptic proportions then so be it, what are we going to do but wait for that certainty and then respond.

There are often no easy answers and this situation is a testimony to that.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Gandalf77

Ah yes, the almighty Tucka. The cornerstone of any logical argument these days. How'd I know that was coming?

So you ignore the actual quote from the CDC health professional in order to belittle and denigrate the venue...

And you claim you listen to the scientists and doctors? Really???

What a pathetic copout.

They keep saying they do not know anything. So WTF?

I think that he is a fool and will needlessly put people in harms way.

There are many people who are skeptical of the governments motives at a time like this.

With that said, I still think that it is prudent to shelter in place if your government deems it necessary until the pandemic abates.

Trying to encourage others to break the shelter in place rules to me seems like the wrong approach to this situation. If he gets many people to break the rules will he take responsibility for any deaths that occur from the virus?

originally posted by: Wildbob77
I think that he is a fool and will needlessly put people in harms way.

There are many people who are skeptical of the governments motives at a time like this.

With that said, I still think that it is prudent to shelter in place if your government deems it necessary until the pandemic abates.

Trying to encourage others to break the shelter in place rules to me seems like the wrong approach to this situation. If he gets many people to break the rules will he take responsibility for any deaths that occur from the virus?

Yeah, I agree...There should be a charge of inciting a riot, or counselling someone to commit a criminal offense.

originally posted by: Centsay

originally posted by: Wildbob77
I think that he is a fool and will needlessly put people in harms way.

There are many people who are skeptical of the governments motives at a time like this.

With that said, I still think that it is prudent to shelter in place if your government deems it necessary until the pandemic abates.

Trying to encourage others to break the shelter in place rules to me seems like the wrong approach to this situation. If he gets many people to break the rules will he take responsibility for any deaths that occur from the virus?

Yeah, I agree...There should be a charge of inciting a riot, or counselling someone to commit a criminal offense.
Criminal negligence causing bodily harm, or death.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yeah, but the problem with that is if people get sick to such an extent it can become worse.

Were in unchartered territory...But look at Sweden and Denmark: One country did the extreme lockdown, Denmark, but Sweden didn’t and now Denmark is much better off. www.pbs.org...


So, basically, if we ignore it and not quarantine and it ends up worse and makes the society dangerously dysfunctional as well as killing millions then it will become involuntary like a natural disaster.

The socialistic remedy should be temporary. It's only a methodology until this thing is over.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Good points, I agree with you. I'd hate to see it come to that, a full scale revolution, but I also wouldn't hesitate to defend my children's future.

I said in another thread, I question the spine of the American people after seeing the hysterical response to all this. I don't have confidence we'd rise up against a tyrannical takeover. I fear the vast majority would roll over and take it.

a reply to: Willtell

Denmark has more cases per million population (973) than Sweden does (905).
www.worldometers.info...
www.worldometers.info...

Not seeing enough of a statistical difference there to warrant saying Denmark's extreme lockdown produced benefits over Sweden's looser efforts. I also am not seeing where these "millions" of dead are supposed to be seen in absence of the extreme measures taken, frankly. Every model showing that has been demonstrably false as seen by significantly lower than modeled numbers in places where the strict lockdowns haven't been observed compared to the places where they have.

if you read his words he isn't promoting violence or even civil disobedience, he's saying that the government and law enforcement needs to be careful to not push too far or too long or people will start resisting and refuse to comply, especially with no job or food or basic needs being met and paranoia about this virus putting so many on edge.

America was already on the edge before this and it won't take much more to push things over the edge completely.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Willtell

If this is used to implement expanded socialism in the US, then that's proof the government does have bad intentions. You're right, people need to be able to pay their bills and buy food... that's why this nonsense should end immediately and people be allowed to return to their businesses, their jobs, their lives.

YEP YEP YEP.

People need their paychecks, not a stimulus check.

I can't fault anyone for having good-natured reasons for supporting socialism, but Congress is way too corrupt with spending -- there's no genuine oversight and accountability. There would be nothing 'good-natured' about a socialist system produced by the U.S. government. They'd abuse that kind of power -- they always push it to the very limits and often beyond when it comes to 'power.' The record speaks for itself.

Also, I can't believe that supporters of socialism in the U.S. have really thought it through, and would be totally fine with Republicans in government having their way with a socialist system. No doubt Republicans in government would LOVE to have their way with a socialist system...as would Democrats.

I was in charge of the budget for my department at a former job and the person who did all the spending, too. It's very tempting to splurge on a few things...a conference in New Orleans that happened to be scheduled during Mardi Gras, computer speakers, ok, but maybe the nice subwoofer was wasteful and self-indulgent.

All those piggy hands in Congress and a big fat pile of money...I'm sure Congress knows thousands of ways to cheat taxpayers.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

Not hypothetically, they'd head that kind of thing off by locking people in their own homes.

They're definitely trying...
---------------------

I've been giving this much thought (not surprisingly...). We're not beat yet. And it ain't over till it's over. I think our saving grace is that this is an election year. Things have been said that cannot be unsaid or unheard. Things have been done that cannot be undone or unseen.

Damn near everyone I talk to in real life sees the B.S. one way or another, some in more sinister ways than others, but none are happy. No matter where their political biases and loyalties lie, they're disillusioned (to say the least). And yet I still expect the critters -- especially the Dem critters -- to be totally tone deaf and completely overplay their hand, thus disillusioning more folks.

I don't know what Trump will do. I have no doubt he's playing this for his greatest advantage -- whatever that is. And I expect he's playing the long game for long term advantage; his own, not necessarily ours... unless he decides our best interests are his best interests.

In a perfect world, someone would break out of the pack and make some bold statements... and even bolder demands... someone with some gravitas... someone that can just spell out some home truths... someone that the people can rally around...

And people in hell want ice water

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

Be on the lookout for grossly broad actions that sound like they are intended to be temporary, but they are crafted with the intent to be extended...and extended some more. Like the Patriot Act...I know, I know...

Words to live by. Literally.

Thank you for saying them.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: MotherMayEye


I am an ardent conspiracy theorist, 911, JFK, etc.… and often accuse power of being misused for sinister intent.

It is something that is always there even in normal times

But this is a situation where certain things may be justified to protect the common good and the individual.

If their intentions are bad and this is actually an attempt to do some nefarious power grab of apocalyptic proportions then so be it, what are we going to do but wait for that certainty and then respond.

There are often no easy answers and this situation is a testimony to that.

I can't speak to what is in store for us when there is a 'second wave,' reinfections, or second infections from other strains. Having antibodies isn't always a good thing, sometimes it can make viruses more aggressive. I don't like that the information, so far, about reinfections and second infections (from one of the many other strains now circulating) is so uncertain and contradictory.

But, I do think there's already a clear pattern that shows the economic crisis wasn't justified and much of that is just due to the crappy way stimulus money is being funneled into the economy. The stimulus money should have simply been used as an incentive for non-essential businesses to voluntarily close and for non-essential workers (who can't work from home) to voluntarily stay home.

I think that approach would have worked just as well and spared us the devastating economic crash and high unemployment.

I am apathetic to the political agenda, really. I've not gotten my hopes up about government in two decades. Apathy is my normal now. I expect nothing but the worst...worse than I can imagine is usually what I get, too.

Butttttt...if I knew other people had limits and they were committed to standing up if those limits were crossed, for the first time in 20 decades I would feel hope.

I'd totally stand with them.

a reply to: Centsay

They keep saying they do not know anything. So WTF?

They keep saying they do not know about the virus and its transmission/infection rates and best treatments, etc. But they damn well know what they themselves want and/or intend to do.

And I had in fact referred a poster to a video of the head of a health agency basically saying that now that people are confined to home, transmission is most likely to occur at home, and therefore they needed to enter our homes and "remove" those who "may" be sick. I provided a link, pretty much the best source of all -- right of the horse's mouth on video.

So it was intellectually lazy and snarky to dismiss the statement due to the venue.

WTF indeed.

originally posted by: Wildbob77
I think that he is a fool and will needlessly put people in harms way.

He can only give others the rope... people make their own decisions.

There are many people who are skeptical of the governments motives at a time like this.

Yes, and they are getting restless, and need a channel... a positive and productive channel. But no one is really stepping up to the plate. I hear some grumbling and groaning, but that's about it. If good leaders don't step up, then mediocre (and worse) fill the vacuum.

With that said, I still think that it is prudent to shelter in place if your government deems it necessary until the pandemic abates.

No. People need to make that decision for themselves, based upon all the known facts and figures. And that sure as hell isn't the faulty -- and falsified -- propaganda we've been getting. People need to decide what precautions are appropriate for their risk, as well as what risks are appropriate. One-size-fits-all NEVER fits all.

Trying to encourage others to break the shelter in place rules to me seems like the wrong approach to this situation. If he gets many people to break the rules will he take responsibility for any deaths that occur from the virus?

You presume that:
1 -- These people are not familiar with, and supporters of, the same Constitutional principles and values;
2 -- That Bundy is somehow forcing them to do something they otherwise would not;
3 -- That people are not responsible for their own decisions and actions; and,
4 -- That Bundy is putting on the church service, rather than just offering "protection" for the event.

Would I go to this church service? Nope. Not with all the personal protection gear in the world. Will I stop anyone else from doing so? Nope. Will I strongly suggest they take all precautions? Yup. Will I support their right to do so? YES!!!

a reply to: namehere

America was already on the edge before this and it won't take much more to push things over the edge completely.

I would say that only a significant segment was on the correct edge; but yes, this is very close to push coming to shove for many people.

People will take a stand sooner or later, one way or another. I'm hoping the right people stand strongest and firmest.