Moon UFOs (Or why would someone fake this)

a reply to: saladfingers123456

Do you remember the Haiti UFOs videos?

The guy who made them said they "were intended as research".

originally posted by: oloufo
a reply to: Jonjonj

why doesn't someone go to the public with such a video? he could make a lot of money and become famous...

fake, of course.

Don't they need to make a lot of money from it first before it is deemed fake?

So you mean it's fake either way?



It could be faked, but does look interesting.

If I ever get a good video I'm going to put the theme song from Rocky on it

Thats not all

SIT STAY!!

I think you are making a lot of asumptions. The shadows move around because of the atmospheric distortion.
If the shadows move because of the atmospheric distortion then they wouldn't be the only thing moving, as the shadow of the topmost "UFO" does, there's a moment when it jumps one pixel in one direction then in the other.

IF you were going to fake this, the methods used in any approach would at the very least create correct shadows. Trying to use the shadowing as negative evidence in my book is folly.

No, there's one approach in which the shadows would have to be made manually, and would be very difficult to make them correctly.

To make a video such as this manually, i.e. by hand is beyond reasoning... It would be the most silly way of doing it, and with the quality of the result, I wouldn't imagine such a low brow approach to creating it. Period. I totally reject that concept for creating it... the person would have to be a masochist.

You have to consider approach...
1) The moon footage is real, the UFOs added afterwards. In this set up, you'd need to perfectly match the natural atmospheric distortion... a near impossible task. I don't even know how you'd do that.

There's no need to match the atmospheric distortion, the objects and their shadows are too small for us to see if the distortion is correct or not.

It is Earths atmosphere that is distorting, so everything behind it is effected in the same way. I see no issues with how the UFOs and the moon are affected. It would seem to be a perfect job. Stretching and bending along with the surface of the moon behind it.

2) The moon and the UFOs are all CG. In this scenario, the lighting and ufos shadows would be correct because it is easier to get it right than to get it wrong.

I agree, that's why I mentioned 3D models of the Moon in a previous post. That would look perfect, with only the need to add the atmospheric distortion.

But ONLY adding atmospheric distortion is a big ONLY. Not so easy. As a telescope user, this looks like a perfect simulation of it. That is not easy. But of all the methods, this would be the most likely. Unless there are tools to achieve this (not saying there aren't yet!) then it still means it is a complex fake. But I see no reason to fake this. I mean the guy who filmed it said “I regularly film the moon by day, at time of the first and last crescent. I think hidden activity has to be visible on the Moon, it is at that moment the population does not observe it because the first and last crescent makes it more discreet” ...that sounds like someone who has studied this subject and it presents a strong logic... genuine reasoning.

So doing number 1)... this would be a really hard way of faking it, and I'm not sure why you'd bother... too many hoops to jump through. A) You'd have to create and match the surface of the moon we are looking at accurately, in order to get the shadows working at all.

That's why I don't think this is real, because the shadows do not match.

I don't agree with you on this point. I see no evidence to show the shadows don't match. Too many variables.

B) Try to match the atmospheric distortion to all of your work... again, near impossible. Go ask any 3d artist how you'd match the distortion without a tonne of work.

No need to match the distortion, you just have to move the objects around a little, being so small they cannot be affected in the same way as the Moon.

You're still thinking about the manual approach here. You need to throw that idea away... it wouldn't be a logical approach for such a polished result.

PS: in your 25 years in CGI as an animator/effects/video guy, have you worked with 3D models? If you did then you shouldn't have any problem recreating the video, by creating a sphere with a light source with parallel rays being cast on it, more or less from the same direction as we see on the video, and add some small cigar-shaped objects over it to see if the shadows look the same. I'd do it if I knew how, but I haven't used a 3D program in a long time.

I could do some approximation, but I'm not sure how good a 3d model of the moon is out there, or if it is freely accessible... any ideas? I'd love to give it a go. Really not an easy task either. But I'm also cautious not to muddy the waters if this is genuine. The originator of the clip needs to come forward really for an interview with someone, a bit of authenticity.
Anyway, any idea on the origin of a correctly mapped 3d object of the moon?

p.s. Regarding the Haiti UFO clip... yes, for research, but they came out and said that... they owned up to it. I'd expect similar here. But I refer you again to what the originator said about his efforts to capture something during the cresent moon. This sounds like it comes from someone genuinely interested in the subject. This might be the first time they ever caught anything... who knows how long they have been trying.

Fake , But still thats a hell of camera .

Cool video.

a reply to: saladfingers123456

It's too obvious to the "Trained Eye".

It looks as though the UFOs are on a transparency and drug across the screen with added effects to cause the atmospheric disturbance that the moon seems to show naturally.

Too many things wrong. Shadows, movements (real jerky movements in slow or normal motion). Play it in double speed, you'll still see the jerkiness of the UFOs but not the moon.

If you can show me a video that isn't CGI that looks similar to this in comparison, I'd be happy to prove it otherwise to the best of my ability.

Seriously, I'd love for aliens to exist but I still have not seen one shred of credible evidence. The closest thing to credible are the stories of old and those offer even less proof but they're more believable than this.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: saladfingers123456

I'm not seeing any major fame and glory agenda with this footage, unless Jean-Michel Tenac and his friend are fake people in service of Zeal the youtube channel.

People make up stories for reasons other than fame and glory. Some people make up stories simply because they "get their jollies" from the act of trying to fool people.

No fame, glory, or monetary gain is required.

Exactly. Like memes... You can have the funniest meme on the planet and you can take pride in it but no one will ever know you created it but yourself. It's the satisfaction of having something you created to make its way around the globe.

I have a wine recipe that I feel I've perfected. If it made it's way around the world and everyone started using it... That would be awesome all by itself, no matter if someone stole it and passed it around. I mean I'd be a lil pissed but I'd also feel like king of the world for creating something that everyone uses.

a reply to: saladfingers123456

It is Earths atmosphere that is distorting, so everything behind it is effected in the same way. I see no issues with how the UFOs and the moon are affected. It would seem to be a perfect job. Stretching and bending along with the surface of the moon behind it.

With all due respect and I don't mean to offend you but this might anyways...

If you don't see the distortion affecting both the moon and the UFOs separately, then you, my friend, need to get glasses. Your eyes are going bad.

If you judge this video legit based on your experience with 3DG or CG -- I'm sorry man... You're not as good at your job as you think you are. This coming from someone who used to do this sort of thing as a hobby. I went to school for Graphics Design and 3D animation. I changed my major to English because it was far too new and I felt that I knew far more than my professor because I had been doing it far longer and her creations couldn't even touch mine in depth. I wanted to be a game designer but back then, when I set my major to 3D Animation, it was the first year it was offered. It was offered because Gaming Companies started filling in to Baton Rouge and I wanted to be a part of that... Until I found out how much they made. Now I work in the oilfield because - I like owning fastAS#%@& cars and I'd starve on their salary.

Seriously, I don't mean to kick dirt in your face, I just don't find your skill any more plausible than this video. To me.. The flaws are so in your face you can't miss them and my eyes ARE crap. So much so that the glasses I'm wearing now... it's time for an update... And I can still see those flaws and inconsistencies without hindrance.


Still

Funny how hard it is for some people to say: I don't know

a reply to: Jonjonj

Well....
Now that's interesting.

originally posted by: EartOccupant
Funny how hard it is for some people to say: I don't know

Funny how you didn't.


But what's the point of saying , "I don't know" in a case like this? Actually.

a reply to: Phage

The point is that a lot of people are taking a "position" based on all kinds of assumptions.

I find that interesting, and some have some points I value indeed.

But bottom line: Only the up-loader knows the truth.

a reply to: EartOccupant

Are you sure about that?

a reply to: Phage

Nope. I just take it into account.

a reply to: EartOccupant

So, you don't know, then.

Me either.

That was sort of a waste of time. But then, we've got a lot of that round 'bout now.

a reply to: Phage

Fair enough!

I just get a little recalcitrant when people are dismissing things they don't have a clue about.

a reply to: EartOccupant

The point is discussion.

Saying "I don't know" is not really discussion. People have ideas and some of those ideas are pretty good.

a reply to: Phage

I've seen too many good UFO topics go to the hoaxbin without or before good discussion the past ten years here on ATS.

But i agree in principle.

a reply to: EartOccupant

There are three reasons for something to go into the hoax bin.

1) The source (youtube channel, most often) is a known and consistent source of hoaxes.

2) The member knowingly and intentially posts a hoax. In which case the member is also banned.

3) The source material is otherwise shown to be an intentional hoax beyond reasonable doubt.


Being in the hoax bin does not preclude further discussion and there are very many suspected hoaxes which do not end up there.

originally posted by: saladfingers123456
To make a video such as this manually, i.e. by hand is beyond reasoning... It would be the most silly way of doing it, and with the quality of the result, I wouldn't imagine such a low brow approach to creating it. Period. I totally reject that concept for creating it... the person would have to be a masochist.

When I say "manually" I mean by not using a tool that automates the whole process. I haven't used it, but I suppose that's something that can be done with Adobe After Effects or similar software, a tool that allows people to use (in this case) the video of the Moon as background and add the "UFOs" and their shadows, creating their trajectories manually.

But ONLY adding atmospheric distortion is a big ONLY. Not so easy. As a telescope user, this looks like a perfect simulation of it. That is not easy. But of all the methods, this would be the most likely. Unless there are tools to achieve this (not saying there aren't yet!) then it still means it is a complex fake.

I think it very likely that there is software that allows the user to create procedural effects to simulate things like the atmospheric distortion, clouds, smoke, etc.
But that's speculation from my part, based on what I have read about software for movie creation and edition.

But I see no reason to fake this. I mean the guy who filmed it said “I regularly film the moon by day, at time of the first and last crescent. I think hidden activity has to be visible on the Moon, it is at that moment the population does not observe it because the first and last crescent makes it more discreet” ...that sounds like someone who has studied this subject and it presents a strong logic... genuine reasoning.

If the video is fake then the story can also be fake. Also, that reasoning that "it is at that moment the population does not observe it because the first and last crescent makes it more discreet" is not really true, as that's the time the shadows of the mountains in those regions become more noticeable in the terminator.

I don't agree with you on this point. I see no evidence to show the shadows don't match. Too many variables.

Too many variables? For what? If the shadows do not match reality that's the result of a bad work, not many variables needed for that.

You're still thinking about the manual approach here. You need to throw that idea away... it wouldn't be a logical approach for such a polished result.

Once more, "manually" here means "not automatic", a system in which the path of the objects and shadows was drawn by hand for the software to make them follow the paths.

I could do some approximation, but I'm not sure how good a 3d model of the moon is out there, or if it is freely accessible... any ideas? I'd love to give it a go. Really not an easy task either. But I'm also cautious not to muddy the waters if this is genuine. The originator of the clip needs to come forward really for an interview with someone, a bit of authenticity.
Anyway, any idea on the origin of a correctly mapped 3d object of the moon?

You don't need a realistic model of the Moon, as I said, only a sphere, as I was talking about the aspect of the shadows, if they are pointing in the right directions or not. That can be done with a simple sphere and three cylinders.
But if you want a more realistic version you can use this.

p.s. Regarding the Haiti UFO clip... yes, for research, but they came out and said that... they owned up to it. I'd expect similar here.

Yes, but he came out after someone from a newspaper went looking for him and after some millions of views on his videos.

But I refer you again to what the originator said about his efforts to capture something during the cresent moon. This sounds like it comes from someone genuinely interested in the subject. This might be the first time they ever caught anything... who knows how long they have been trying.

As I said, that's irrelevant if the video is fake. Someone that fakes a video can easily fake a story, there's no need for special software for that.