The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Not really.

For most of this nation's history, MOST people on the North American continent practiced a variety of non-Christian religions. When the states collected into a nation, the religions were hardly standardized, and much of what they practiced would be shocking today.

People were beaten and fined for working on Sundays in some areas. In some areas, people were put in stocks (so that others could throw dung and vegetables on them) for swearing. Some areas allowed polygamy. Some areas allowed slavery and taught it as a Biblical right. In some areas it was physically dangerous to be a Catholic. In some areas it was physically dangerous to be a Mormon. Jews and other non-Christians were minimalized and marginalized and often killed -- but this was a point of contention because some Christian sects thought this was okay and others (Quakers, notably) held it as abhorrent.

There was a legal unity, yes. But there was hardly a religous unity. You can google for quotes by Mark Twain on religion to see just how badly (and nastily) divided the sects were.


quote: As to morals necessarily flowing from religion..or not flowing from religion. I must disagree with you ..you are correct in this position..my disagreement.
Morals to me ...always flow from religion..
My definition of religion is that which guides one..not just in good times but also in bad times..difficulty..how far one will go .
Morals are an agreed-upon set of social rules, and they are changeable. Even Christian ones.

It's considered immoral for a man to have a mistress -- and yet in Biblical times Biblical patriarchs had concubines as well as wives and they were considered to be moral. We consider anyone who has sexual relations with a person under the age of 17 to be a pedophile and immoral but there is no age limit in the Bible and rabbinical law and other documents report Hebrew men of that time taking girls as young as 3 to be their wives and concubines. In a few instances, by Yahweh's command, the men kill all the females who "have known man" (anyone over the age of common marriage, which would be girls aged 12 and up) and takes the rest (girls under the age of 12) as concubines.

I don't think you would find THAT morality practiced by the Hebrews (and to them it was moral and was Yahweh's commandment) to be one that is promoted or accepted today.

Morality springs from the rules of people trying to live together. We find (anthropologically speaking) morals in all people who live in groups -- rules that tell you how you treat other people in your group and outside your group. And there are some very basic ones (not killing members of your own group, rules about who you can marry) that exist in every single culture, regardless if there's a religion or a recognition of a Great Spirit or whether there isn't.


signature
The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
-- Mark Twain

The Newbie's Handy Reference Guide: www.abovetopsecret.com...

intresting points also..Byrd,
What I stated was that by and large coast to coast..was that people in this country had a basic belief system of how people should conduct themselves. I did not say that it was a smooth operation at anytime in history . The point was that especially politicians knew this point both publically and privately. Even the criminal element knew this too. This is not so today. A huge change and not accidental. This basic belief system came from Christian backgrounds and Christian beliefs. Not that it has been a smooth ride at anytime.
You can tell this today ..by the results of the last presidential election in California. They were in California ..astonished with the results and I could not believe that the media had the nerve to release such a statement coming from political movements in California. As I recall the statements were to the effect that the election was not fair to Californians as they had more educated people ..larger population, more GNP etc etc etc than the rest of the nation. This came across to me as a feudal implication that more consideration is due to California by default. As if it was some kind of birthright for being a Californian.

The morality as practiced by the Hebrews of which you speak is today sectarian in nature...this has not changed. Not to mix leven with unleven. Exactly what this world would have Believers to do...constantly. Usually by omission of one line of thinking in favor of another. Not both views.
If this were not true...you would not have the flack you are getting today ...from non sectarian arenas. Christians who are believers do not want to mix in this manner ..socially and politically it is causing friction as it has in all centurys. Not a new phenomonon.

Thanks for your post ..
Orangetom

saint4God that's just absolutely ridiculous and "you know it"..... women cheat and do wrong just as much as men do and "everyone" knows that! Stop reading into it what's not there.....yes, it is usually more, often than not, Christians that will pick out homosexuals to hate or pick at while leaving other sins alone....and you also know that because as you said....yes we have talked! Do I sin, yes I do though I try and do my best to be best person I can be….and I also do not hate anyone else for sinning, I hate no one as a matter of fact. I will also worry about my own sins and life….not what others are doing with their religious life…I do as I have stated, have issue with people sinning while picking at others for sinning…...how stupid

was quote this:

Originally posted by LadyV
....they won't complain about men going to strip clubs, or looking at porn, or someone getting drunk and cheating on a spouse on Saturday night,

You said "men" as the ones being at fault. Here's the interesting thing. What are men looking at in a strip club or in porn? Who are they sleeping with when cheating on their spouse? If you said women, the percentages are in your favor by about 97% ( www.leaderu.com... ). So as we can see, we have a dualistic fault involved here. It takes two to tango, as they say. I was just wondering where all this "picking and choosing", that you so readily accuse Christians of doing, by singling out men comes from?

I believe the reason why christianity is more tolerant of women being objectified and used for 'service' than they are homosexuality is because the bible starts with Eve being Adam's servant and therefore tolerates women being used as such.. it is usually women that are held accountable for pornography by fundies- probably because the mindset is 'Eve offered the apple so it's her fault he bit into it'.

Yes- christainity has always had alot of power- only took a millenia for women to get some of it back.

Originally posted by riley
I believe the reason why christianity is more tolerant of women being objectified and used for 'service' than they are homosexuality is because the bible starts with Eve being Adam's servant and therefore tolerates women being used as such..

Which is why IMO, Christians should have some kind of working knowledge of Judaism since they use the texts. Jewish women aren't treated as such, nor does the Hebrew call Eve a servant. Women are equal to men but both people have different roles and responsibilities. Also, G-d has both male and female qualities hence them being made in his image. That would be like G-d considering half of himself lesser.

it is usually women that are held accountable for pornography by fundies- probably because the mindset is 'Eve offered the apple so it's her fault he bit into it'.

On the flip side, Adam lied to Eve and then tried to scapegoat when G-d caught them. Poor Eve! Good thing the story is just that!

Originally posted by riley
I believe the reason why christianity is more tolerant of women being objectified and used for 'service' than they are homosexuality is because the bible starts with Eve being Adam's servant and therefore tolerates women being used as such.. it is usually women that are held accountable for pornography by fundies- probably because the mindset is 'Eve offered the apple so it's her fault he bit into it'.

Yes- christainity has always had alot of power- only took a millenia for women to get some of it back.

Hold up. Are you saying the women in strip clubs, pornos and involved in adulterous relationships are Christian?



[edit on 25-5-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Hold up. Are you saying the women in strip clubs, pornos and involved in adulterous relationships are Christian?

No [well maybe one or two] ..I'm saying that ideals in the bible have drastically influenced cultural attitudes and moral expectations.

[edit on 25-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
No [well maybe one or two] ..I'm saying that ideals in the bible have drastically influenced cultural attitudes.

Cultural attitudes and moral expectations such as women electing to make a career/hobby out of pornography and adultry? Sounds a little opposite of what the Bible actually says. Okay, completely opposite - Proverbs and Matthew are my two favorite in this regard. The Bible, which is the book read at the pulpit every Sunday, which we at church are urged to read constantly on our own as Christians (servants of God, followers of Christ). If we are the 'sheep' as so many claim us to be, then we'd do nothing other than what's in the Bible, that book which we read on our own as well as aloud in church.

[edit on 25-5-2005 by saint4God]

Yes, Saint. Women who are in strip clubs, etc. could possibly be Christian. One must not have a strict impression of what a "Christian" is. A Christian is one who looks to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins, and realizes that Christ took to the cross for that.

You asked me about where it said in the Constitution about seperation of church and state. You KNOW what amendment I was referring to. The amendment is there for a purpose. Remember the last time the Church controlled many there was a period called "The Dark Ages." No advancement in much of anything. Sorta like trying to outlaw a petri dish that is going to get tossed away anyway, and perhaps could help many.

A true Christian DOES NOT JUDGE. From earlier readings of your writings I got the impression that you realized that. However, the two questions asked, and specifically the "Women in Strip Clubs" question now has me wondering that perhaps you are being judgemental.

It is not our place to judge. Question, yes. Judge, no.

One certainly realizes GOD made the differences in man and women for procreation purposes? That man only put on the clothes after the original sin?

Many types of Christians out there my friend. Just like different people view things different ways. I don't like the "conservative" viewpoint just like you don't apparently like the "liberal" viewpoint.

When one moves on in their spiritual progress, and after their physical being dies many will be amazed at what "strange bedfellows" God has.

It basically comes down to passing on God's LOVE to all mankind.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Yes, Saint. Women who are in strip clubs, etc. could possibly be Christian. One must not have a strict impression of what a "Christian" is. A Christian is one who looks to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins, and realizes that Christ took to the cross for that.

I did not say they could not. The case however is being made that Christians are the source of porn, strip clubs and infidelity. I'm hoping to establish the point that this is not so. In fact, all these things were around well before there were followers of Christ, were they not? In addition, the catagory LadyV decided to attribute to these atrocities is "men" whereas men are not the ONLY ones involved, and Christian men are not the cause of sin. The difference here is that Christian men who read their Book and pray, should know, understand and do their best to avoid sinful things at all costs in the same way that Christain women who read their Book and pray to God understand and do their best to avoid sinful things as all costs. There's a theme here worthy of recognition.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
You asked me about where it said in the Constitution about seperation of church and state. You KNOW what amendment I was referring to.

NO, I do not. Please refresh my apparently archaic memory.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
A true Christian DOES NOT JUDGE. From earlier readings of your writings I got the impression that you realized that. However, the two questions asked, and specifically the "Women in Strip Clubs" question now has me wondering that perhaps you are being judgemental.

I'll stand accuse. Who did I judge?

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
It is not our place to judge. Question, yes. Judge, no.

I'm down wit it.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
One certainly realizes GOD made the differences in man and women for procreation purposes? That man only put on the clothes after the original sin?

Nakedness is not a sin. Lusting for others when you're already married is. I can quote Matthew if you like. This is what is being discussed.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Many types of Christians out there my friend. Just like different people view things different ways. I don't like the "conservative" viewpoint just like you don't apparently like the "liberal" viewpoint.

Please, I am not conservative. Nice try to political-connotatively staple me to the floor, but missed.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
When one moves on in their spiritual progress, and after their physical being dies many will be amazed at what "strange bedfellows" God has.

Now you know you're gonna have to explain that one to me.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
It basically comes down to passing on God's LOVE to all mankind.

I think on this point we can agree.

madman, please don't take anything I say as an argument. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, especially after reading all your posts. If there's something I'm saying that's not right or something I'm doing that's wrong, by all means let me know. That's what friends/brothers/sisters do when they care.


[edit on 25-5-2005 by saint4God]

This thread reminds me of a classmate I had in high school.

He tried to convince people that if you masturbate you are a homsexual, because.........well, because you're touching a dick.

I am terrified of Christians, they'll believe anything.

Originally posted by Ray Davies
This thread reminds me of a classmate I had in high school.

He tried to convince people that if you masturbate you are a homsexual, because.........well, because you're touching a dick.

And I remind you of him...how?

Originally posted by Ray Davies
I am terrified of Christians, they'll believe anything.

Try me.

[edit on 25-5-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by rileyNo [well maybe one or two] ..I'm saying that ideals in the bible have drastically influenced cultural attitudes and moral expectations.

Very true. From the days of Biblical lore to this very day women are considered the evildoers when it comes to carnal sin. This is because they were considered property, subject to man and expected to live by their rules. The women were labelled whores while their patrons were considered...well...they actually were not considered anything but men, unless of course they were pharoahs succumbing to the whiles of an already married woman who acted in compliance with the hero to deceive their prey. Yet the Bible is rife with glossed over accounts of rape and forcible subservience of women. Men had many wives, while females at puberty were destined for marriage to any old codger who their fathers could ship them off to, usually uncles, sometimes brothers as with Abraham. Sheba being that one rare case not accepting subservience or being the trophy bride.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
The women were labelled whores while their patrons were considered...well...they actually were not considered anything but men,

Proverbs 8:1 "Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand; beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud: 'To you, O men, I call out; I raise my voiceto all mankind. You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding. Listen, for I have worthy things to say; I open my lips to speak what is right. My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness'...for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her."

Her? She? Men of foolishness? Hm, doesn't sound very misogynistic to me. Let's read some more...

Luke 1:26 "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a decendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, 'Greeting, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greetnig this might be. But the angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God."

So...she bears the Son who would be the saviour of all mankind. Quite an honor I think. She was highly favored for being with God.

How about Deborah in Judges 3?

___________________________________________________________________________
excerpt ( www.biblelife.co.uk... )
Deborah's duties and ministry was similar to all the other judges of Israel and even went a bit more.

-She was the leader of the Nation.
-She helped to settle their disputes.
-She was also a prophetess who gave the nation direction from God
-She was respected by all the people.
-She was called by God.

The land had peace for forty years due to her ministry. (Judges 4 and 5)

If Deborah was under our dispensation she would have occupied the office of a pastor, prophet, and teacher.
______________________________________________________________________________

And of course my favorite: Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh"

Let me review the important points. United does not mean "take as a servant". It means according to Merriam Webster: 1 a : to put together to form a single unit b : to cause to adhere c : to link by a legal or moral bond. Also, becoming one flesh means that anything he feels, she feels. Anything she feels, he feels. Who would cause harm, hatred, anger, and subserviance to themselves? The thought is ridiculous. The problem is we don't get this verse. We think after marriage the two become two. Clearly this is NOT what the Bible says.

What makes anyone think 2,000 - 4,000 years ago men walked from cave to cave clubbing women to become their wives? I've yet to see any proof of that.


[edit on 26-5-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Let me review the important points. United does not mean "take as a servant". It means according to Merriam Webster: 1 a : to put together to form a single unit b : to cause to adhere c : to link by a legal or moral bond. Also, becoming one flesh means that anything he feels, she feels. Anything she feels, he feels. Who would cause harm, hatred, anger, and subserviance to themselves? The thought is ridiculous. The problem is we don't get this verse. We think after marriage the two become two. Clearly this is NOT what the Bible says.

I guess what the bible says depends on which parts you want to pay attention to or ignore:

1 Corinthians 11
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Seems women are less 'holier' than men in the eyes of god.

What makes anyone think 2,000 - 4,000 years ago men walked from cave to cave clubbing women to become their wives? I've yet to see any proof of that.

I don't know.. maybe the fact that women used to still have to say "love , honour and obey" only last century.. Saint4god.. how can you say that marriage is suppose to be 'equal' when men didn't even have to say this? ..the logic behind this was Eve being born for Adam [as in possession] ..same idea behind rape being still legal in marriage last century.. thats not 2000 years ago.

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

Can't see the misogynry yet?

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

nope.. that doesn't sound like a single unit.. sounds like a master/servant 'relationship' to me.. where is this equal 'unity' based on mutual respect?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Christianity does not believe in the God responsible for our creation, he has been replaced by another, just as all previous Gods were ousted in the 6,000 year old evolution. And even this new god, is in danger of being replaced by his mother.

What?




In the Begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God....



Consider yourself rebuked.

Originally posted by riley
1 Corinthians 11
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Seems women are less 'holier' than men in the eyes of god.

Do you know who wrote Corinthians? Do you know why that letter to the Corinthians was written? Some background since we're only pulling out a small section. Paul wrote because of church dissension. Apparently there was some rivalry within the church so they asked for Paul's advice. This was the solution he put forward. Let's talk about God, not Paul's solutions to problems in a Corinthian church, shall we?

What makes anyone think 2,000 - 4,000 years ago men walked from cave to cave clubbing women to become their wives? I've yet to see any proof of that.

Originally posted by riley
I don't know.. maybe the fact that women used to still have to say "love , honour and obey" only last century..

Is that in the Bible? Because, that is what we're discussing here. Also, how is this clubbing? I obey God, as it is written and as we're instructed.

Originally posted by riley
Saint4god.. how can you say that marriage is suppose to be 'equal' when men didn't even have to say this? ..the logic behind this was Eve being born for Adam [as in possession] ..same idea behind rape being still legal in marriage last century.. thats not 2000 years ago.

Let's talk about today then. I guess we've established that the 'old school' thinking wasn't so bad after all. Jesus compares at length his relationship with the Church as a bridge-groom relationship. He uses it as something sacred with love. Do you believe Jesus would 'rape' the church? Why would we not, as followers of Christ, apply the same principles today? The laws from 1776 - 1950-ish didn't cover the Bible, nor do they sufficently do so today! There is no law in the U.S. that states "You shall have no other gods before me" coming from Exodus. The Bible is a more comprehensive book when it comes to morality.

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

Can't see the misogynry yet?

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Another letter? Okay okay, who is "I" in this passage? Paul. Again, you're quoting an apostle who was sorting out problems in a church. Genesis shows Adam blaming woman AND God for eating the apple and he gets equally punished (sent out of the garden). I agree that it's best to listen and do that which is right male or female. After all, wisdom is a she, right? How about addressing some of my quotes, huh?

nope.. that doesn't sound like a single unit.. sounds like a master/servant 'relationship' to me.. where is this equal 'unity' based on mutual respect?

Sure thing:

Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Need more? I got more.

Originally posted by saint4God
Do you know who wrote Corinthians? Do you know why that letter to the Corinthians was written? Some background since we're only pulling out a small section. Paul wrote because of church dissension. Apparently there was some rivalry within the church so they asked for Paul's advice. This was the solution he put forward. Let's talk about God, not Paul's solutions to problems in a Corinthian church, shall we?

I thought the bible was the word of god..? Are you saying this section can be dismissed?

Is that in the Bible? Because, that is what we're discussing here. Also, how is this clubbing? I obey God, as it is written and as we're instructed.

Marriage vows used to require the woman to say 'obey' and I think the man was meant to say cherish or protect [I can't remember which].. why was not the man required to obey?

Originally posted by riley
Saint4god.. how can you say that marriage is suppose to be 'equal' when men didn't even have to say this? ..the logic behind this was Eve being born for Adam [as in possession] ..same idea behind rape being still legal in marriage last century.. thats not 2000 years ago.

Let's talk about today then. I guess we've established that the 'old school' thinking wasn't so bad after all.

Yeah right. Try being a woman before feminism.. the church was one of it's main foes.

Jesus compares at length his relationship with the Church as a bridge-groom relationship. He uses it as something sacred with love. Do you believe Jesus would 'rape' the church?

Your comparison is flawed. The attitudes towards women were layed out in the OT.. not by the NT.

1 Timothy 2
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

Can't see the misogynry yet?

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Another letter? Okay okay, who is "I" in this passage? Paul. Again, you're quoting an apostle who was sorting out problems in a church. Genesis shows Adam blaming woman AND God for eating the apple and he gets equally punished (sent out of the garden).

Not equally punnished.. Eve was additionally punnished with the pain of childbirth and menstration for tempting Adam. I know we have discussed this before and you said she was actually 'blessed' but the bible clearly states otherwise.

I agree that it's best to listen and do that which is right male or female.

That is your morality- not reflective of everything in the bible [you'd be one conflicted person if it was] as you obviously do not agree with Paul.. he obviously thought women should be seen and not heared. Now many throughout history have interprited this same quote in the negative- this is when the bible is used as a weapon to dominate.

After all, wisdom is a she, right? How about addressing some of my quotes, huh?

My point is you can find quotes that may support women in the bible.. but having fully read it from a woman's perspective.. the majority of quotes concerning women are negative and promote oppression.. as for wisdom being reffered to as a 'she'.. it's probably the same thing as calling a ship or tornado 'she'- usage of the term may've been just a reflection of the language used at the time [providing it was correctly translated] rather than paying homage to womankind.

Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Need more? I got more.

That does not negate the mysoginist quotes.. I can find more as well- wanna be here all day and go tit for tat with bible contradictions?

[edit on 26-5-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by saint4God

Proverbs 8:1 ... Her? She? Men of foolishness? Hm, doesn't sound very misogynistic to me. Let's read some more...

This is about wisdom though and is being personified as a woman.

She was highly favored for being with God.

Of course!!! It because of our "binah"...intuition, intelligence, understanding which is also the root of "build" as women were built and not formed so we're closer to G-d's ideal!! Practice makes perfect!!!!!!

How about Deborah in Judges 3?

One of the seven female prophets!!!!

And of course my favorite: Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh"

The Hebrew uses cling in lieu of united which I think fits much better. I like this verse because it shows that human males are to be different than the other males as he wants to be with his wife; also it shows that the ideal in the garden was monogamy.

Proverbs 31:10 "What a rare find is a capable wife! Her worth is far beyond that of rubies."

Originally posted by Shonet1430
Proverbs 31:10 "What a rare find is a capable wife! Her worth is far beyond that of rubies."

So do you think this quote compliments women?
First of all 'rare' suggests the majority of women are not 'capable' [whatever that means].. and her 'worth' is weighed against currency.. it's actually quite derogitory.