The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by Shonet1430

Yes, I am very much at peace with myself.

I can tell. It's an amazing feeling to find that peace. My husband has been going through a personal struggle. I hate seeing him go through it but he's coming around. I can't wait to see him find it within himself.

I am at peace too. I arrived at that peace through Jesus Christ. My brother as well -- and my father who I met for the first time a few months ago. It is unbelievable; a peace that removes all fear: fear of death, fear of rejection, and the fear of not knowing who God is.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

I can tell. It's an amazing feeling to find that peace. My husband has been going through a personal struggle. I hate seeing him go through it but he's coming around. I can't wait to see him find it within himself.

Yes, and keep reminding him that it is within him. Most of us when very young have our light shine "brightly". However, many quickly begin to lose that shine. The teachings of man have diminished that "light". It is the realization that everything is truly GOD's "the great physicist" illusion is when the "light" begins to emerge again. One then, hard to describe, comes "intune" with things? I read the teachings of Jesus much different than most. I don't know about any other religion's leaders for I have never studied. In fact, never studied the Bible until....and then when I started reading Jesus's words and listened or read what religion has taught I was appalled.

Most speak of being "reborn". I believe it is actually a "reawakening". Many try too hard to predict their future when they should be trying to remember their past.

I wish your husband well.

Namaste'

Having absolutely no religious backround allowed me to study, interpret, and come to my own conclusions about the deity. I always prefer to read what Christ says rather than what man says. His truth is eternal.

And I wouldn't be. But this country can't have a national religion because that would be endorsing one. Since Christianity and the status of the nation and Christianity weren't the point of the Trinity case, the verdict can't be overturned. If you could overthrow a case based on the court's opinion, then many cases would be overturned. Fact remains that it is their opinion and not the verdict. The verdict is either for or against the issues at hand. The opinion is mere reflection and insight to the case and whether that be the majority opinion or dissenting opinion.

Nowhere in the Constitution, nor in any subsequent amendment, does it say that the nation cannot endorse a religion. It does say, however, that Congress in specific cannot make a law respecting or promoting one.

It does not matter though. My faith doesn't require or need government support. It is flourishing around the world... especially in nations with governments that persecute my faith.

Not buying it. G-d doesn't have genitalia. Since he has male and female attributes as shown in Genesis, he would have to be a hermaphrodite. I'm sure the thought of Jesus having a vagina would freak some people out.

Christians, at least all the Christians I know, do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God in the literal sense; it is metaphorical. I hope you weren't trying to make a serious argument there.

When Christ says he is the "Son of Man" he is not being literal. It is a metaphor signifying that he is a servant.

Ok and good for him. He also says son of G-d which is what every male Jew is, was, and will be.

Have you not heard of the New Testament verses that refer to followers of Christ as the sons and daughters of God. It is simply different. Some things in the Word are symbolic, some are literal.

The Jewish faith is based on the same God in a different aspect: the Father/creator, but is based just as much on the Father/creator aspect as Christianity is based on the Christ/saviour aspect.

How so?

The Old Testament is about the Father/creator. He creates the physical universe. He then selects a special people: the Hebrews, and delivers them to the promised land. Lots of things happen in between... and.......... then the New Testament pops in and the prophesied one, the Messiah appears and is sacrificed -- establishing the New Covenant, and now all people can come to fellowship with Yahweh, the Father through the Spirit.

Without Christ the Christian faith would fail. Without Yahweh the Jewish faith would fail.

I wouldn't fail. Judaism has taught me a way to live and not a person to worship. You are a part of a personality religion. I'll refrain from using cult. If I were worshipping Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Ruth, Sarah, etc then I would be guilty of following a personality provided that they were all real people. My entire relationship isn't based on being Jewish, it's based on me. I don't fit solely within one realm of any religion. I never will. I have some things that I can't and won't compromise on.

Christianity is not the worship of a man. It never has been. I believe in ONE God who is creator of all, ruler of all, and central through all. He has three aspects yet is one. The "one atom has three parts" theory of God is probably inaccurate, but the "matter has three forms" theory of God is more or less close. Just as H2O will always be H2O, it can be found in three forms: ice(solid), water(liquid), or steam(gas). There is ONE God, but he shows himself through the Bible in three ways.

To suggest that Christianity is somehow not as stable as the Jewish faith is not accurate. Your second to last sentence can be used by Christians too.

I never said it's not stable. I said that yours falls apart if Jesus isn't real. I still have my way of life and have been taught a better way to live.

Your faith falls apart if the Torah is found to be false, so what's the difference? Any faith could fall apart under the right conditions. Christ has taught me a better way too.. love, peace, kindness, self-sacrifice, turning the other cheek, self-discipline, holiness, mercy, Spirit-led living, I could go on an on...

The Old Testament scriptures that detail family (or as you like to call it: tribal) lineage DO GO THROUGH MEN AND MEN ONLY except one or two instances.

Name them. And I said it goes through men. But a Jewish man can't marry a Gentile and have Jewish kids. Their kids may be of the tribe of whatever but they aren't Jewish. A Jewish woman can marry a Gentile and her kids are Jewish. Look it up.

Matthew 1:16 "and Jacob the father of Joseph, the HUSBAND of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

It is up to you, but I would suggest reading the first chapter of the book of Matthew.

After all... the Son of Man will be of the tribe of Judah, of the House of David... and through Joseph he is. You cannot dispute the fact that according to the Bible through Joseph he can be traced to David. And the New Testament obviously intends to connect Jesus to David through Joseph because that is how the New Testament traces his lineage back to David.

THERE IS NO SPERM DONOR. Do I need to tell you about the birds and the bees? Do we honestly need to get that basic? Joseph is NOT his father if G-d impregnates her therefore he has NO tribal heritage as G-d is NOT affiliated with a tribe. Is that so hard to understand? I know that Christians are really pulling at straws with this one but step back, look at it and then it will make sense.

Ok... let me get this straight: you are arguing that Jesus cannot be of the lineage of David because Joseph isn't his real father, right? Then it doesn't matter who is going to be the Messiah, because the mother HAS to be a virgin. The Messiah will then be unable to be traced to David, because even if his earthly father can be traced to David, his earthly father cannot be his literal father, because he is born of a virgin, so both of are Bibles are wrong... uhhhhhhh...... ummmmm.....

I did read the rest of your verse and comment, but I simply selected the part of the verse that is a rebuttal to your statement originally.

Then you would have understood what was being said provided that you understand the English language.

The verse about Bethlehem in Micah CLEARLY says that out of Bethlehem will come ONE not many. ONE RULER, not many. Jesus fulfills prophecy.

When Adam and Eve SINNED, DEATH entered the world. SIN=Death; Death=SIN.

Adam=earth. Eve=life. Story=metaphor. Original sin is not a concept of Judaism. Instead it is a part of the Bible hijacked by Christians.

Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is really a metaphor? If so, what do you base that on? Perhaps you are being sarcastic...

I don't believe in "original sin," I believe that people can sin once they reach the "age of reason," which is different for everyone. Once you know right from wrong then you can sin. "Orignal sin" tends to be a Catholic belief, which is not what the Bible teaches, never-the-less.

You're right; it is about world peace. After the apocolyptic battle in Israel, Christ will return and reign triumphant for one-thousand years. World peace will ensue. I am completely familiar with Gog and Magog.

In your opinion. See the rules for the moshaich have been laid out and Jesus didn't play them out therefore he is ruled out. He's dead. Done. Gone. Poof. Stick a fork in him. IF he lived that is.

But He hasn't been ruled out!!! He fulfilled every prophecy I cited, and the ones yet to be fulfilled WILL be fulfilled when He returns to earth in the full glory of God.

He first destroyed sin as the divine sacrifice. And he will destroy death when he returns if you are so concerned about the literal interpretation.

He didn't destroy anything because Jews still offer sacrifice. He can't destroy death because he's dead. End of story.

Then perhaps Jews should stop offering sacrifice, because their Messiah has already come:

ISAIAH 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

The Jewish faith never says there will not be a second coming of Christ, it says the Messiah will come, but it doesn't say how many times. Cite a verse that says he will not come twice...

You can't be serious. I laid out the requirements for what the person will do in his lifetime and dying isn't one of them. That alone says ONCE. There is no second coming in Judaism. Look to John the Baptist to backeth that one up.

It never says the Messiah will not come twice. Cite a verse if it does. The Old Testament is silent on that issue.

[edit on 2-6-2005 by nappyhead]

[edit on 2-6-2005 by nappyhead]

Originally posted by nappyhead
Then perhaps Jews should stop offering sacrifice, because their Messiah has already come:

ISAIAH 53...

Oh my. Even I can't stand this and I was enjoying watching you two battle it out. Please read Isaiah 49 for the conext of Isaiah 53.

I don't like to comment on an on-going discussion by talking about nothing much more than just the discussion but, I can't help myself any more. Pardon my indulgence, please.

So, this is a great discussion! But, it's coming down to some basics. The "Christians" using both the OT and the NT but using their own version and their own interpretations - which would be perfectly fine but they don't have the background or understanding of Judaism as a culture. What almost no Christians seem to understand is that being Jewish really has almost nothing to do with religion. You can be recognized as a "real" Jew according to Judaism even if you practice some other religion or none at all. There's a huge portion that is cultural, anthropological, heritage, tradition, customs, language, societal, secular, etc... And, it's NOT the same as 21st century western anglo-european. So, what I'm trying to say without being too harsh is that the Christians just don't get it and probably never will unless they are willing to study it and live it for a couple of dozen years.

(BTW - I'm kinda like Shonet. I spent the first 25 years of my life in the fundie Christian environment and the last 25 years in a mostly Jewish environment. So, I have seen both sides and, well, let's just say that I'm not a Christian, now.)

The other problem is that Jews (as well as most all us other non-Christians) do not believe in the NT and, in fact, don't trust it as a source. That same group doesn't put any stock in the whole idea that the prophesied Messiah has come. Some don't believe any part of the Messianic prohecies and others, like me, think that the Christians just got impatient because they truly thought (the Jesists, I mean) that the world was going to end next week so, this guy must be THE GUY. In fact, we know that they could have chosen any one of the dozens of "Messiahs" that were running around that part of the world at that time but, somebody had to be picked...

So, the whole thing about trying to use any Christian version of either the OT or the NT is never going to convince non-Christians. The opposite is also true. (Which is why I look for references to coroborate in other historical texts but, since so many of the ancient libraries were burned in the name of one God or another, that's not an easy get!)

OK, please don't interpret this message to say that y'all should stop - please don't! I like that you're keeping it civil - congratulations! It probably helps that so many of the "cry babies" put y'all on their "Ignore lists" - consider that a blessing from the God of your choice.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Al Davison]

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by nappyhead
Then perhaps Jews should stop offering sacrifice, because their Messiah has already come:

ISAIAH 53...

Oh my. Even I can't stand this and I was enjoying watching you two battle it out. Please read Isaiah 49 for the conext of Isaiah 53.

What is it you are getting at? Chapter 49 just proves my point even more. 49 has even more prophecies about the Messiah.

Originally posted by Al Davison
I don't like to comment on an on-going discussion by talking about nothing much more than just the discussion but, I can't help myself any more. Pardon my indulgence, please.

So, this is a great discussion! But, it's coming down to some basics. The "Christians" using both the OT and the NT but using their own version and their own interpretations - which would be perfectly fine but they don't have the background or understanding of Judaism as a culture. What almost no Christians seem to understand is that being Jewish really has almost nothing to do with religion. You can be recognized as a "real" Jew according to Judaism even if you practice some other religion or none at all. There's a huge portion that is cultural, anthropological, heritage, tradition, customs, language, societal, secular, etc... And, it's NOT the same as 21st century western anglo-european. So, what I'm trying to say without being too harsh is that the Christians just don't get it and probably never will unless they are willing to study it and live it for a couple of dozen years.

(BTW - I'm kinda like Shonet. I spent the first 25 years of my life in the fundie Christian environment and the last 25 years in a mostly Jewish environment. So, I have seen both sides and, well, let's just say that I'm not a Christian, now.)

The other problem is that Jews (as well as most all us other non-Christians) do not believe in the NT and, in fact, don't trust it as a source. That same group doesn't put any stock in the whole idea that the prophesied Messiah has come. Some don't believe any part of the Messianic prohecies and others, like me, think that the Christians just got impatient because they truly thought (the Jesists, I mean) that the world was going to end next week so, this guy must be THE GUY. In fact, we know that they could have chosen any one of the dozens of "Messiahs" that were running around that part of the world at that time but, somebody had to be picked...

So, the whole thing about trying to use any Christian version of either the OT or the NT is never going to convince non-Christians. The opposite is also true. (Which is why I look for references to coroborate in other historical texts but, since so many of the ancient libraries were burned in the name of one God or another, that's not an easy get!)

OK, please don't interpret this message to say that y'all should stop - please don't! I like that you're keeping it civil - congratulations! It probably helps that so many of the "cry babies" put y'all on their "Ignore lists" - consider that a blessing from the God of your choice.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Al Davison]

Thank you for the kind and not so kind words... but I know quite a bit about Jewish faith (not nearly as much as Jews themselves though, I'll admit). I studied it for many months in college. I concede that Judaism is what it is. I am not attacking Jews, I am just using the Old Testament prophecies to confirm the Messiah is Christ... that is all. My closest friend who has actually smuggled Bibles into China is a Messianic Jew. GO SEINFELD!

Oh yeah... and I'm commenting on the Old Testament and not on Jewish culture, which I admire and respect very much.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by nappyhead]

[edit on 3-6-2005 by nappyhead]

Yes, and keep reminding him that it is within him. Most of us when very young have our light shine "brightly". However, many quickly begin to lose that shine. The teachings of man have diminished that "light". It is the realization that everything is truly GOD's "the great physicist" illusion is when the "light" begins to emerge again.

He's younger than me so his should be shining but he's never had the chance. His mother is an atheist and his father grew up real Southern Baptist (footwashers and whatnot) however, his mother left when he was 11 and never paid child support. Therefore, his father had to work extremely long days and he never got involved with anything unnecessary so to speak. When he was 17, he began going to the local Baptist church that has a membership of 13000. Too big and too impersonal IMO for someone who has had zero guidance. When we met, he knew that religion was a part of me (I was even attending a Methodist college for that reason) and didn't bring it up. I waited for him to approach me and three years later, he did. Together we started going to an Episcopal church which was so lighthearted and wonderful. We were going to the children's service so each Sunday, the kids would crowd around the priest and we would get the sermon part via tots. And it wasn't the sermon I was used it. It was a lesson. Then one day, it just didn't fit anymore. I became more distant from G-d and living in my own little hell. Finally in doing a family tree, I learned about my roots (including being related to the Mormon Brigham Young and here's the best yet....a snake handling preacher). I also learned about my Jewish roots. I sat on that information for a long time before doing anything and then one day after months of struggling, it made sense to me. I had been living in the shadow of hell and the people I love going to hell because I viewed G-d as vindictive and angry at everything who wouldn't accept Jesus. I then realized one morning when I woke that everything is G-d's and everything is good. I realized that he gave us the free will and power/knowledge to do a bajillion different things in this world. I realized that in the Tanakh other gods were mentioned. I sort of put two and two together and realized that if he is in fact all powerful and all knowing and the creator of all, then whether or not he directly created the gods that others worship or not, it still falls back on the G-d given free will and knowledge. Taking into consideration that the rules were for Jews in the Tanakh, I reconciled my thoughts on Jesus and all of the others by believing that G-d sent different messengers to draw in different groups of people. I plan to teach my children all of the different religions because my path may not be suitable for them when it comes to G-d. I want them to learn in a very unbiased manner exactly what each entails.

One then, hard to describe, comes "intune" with things? I read the teachings of Jesus much different than most. I don't know about any other religion's leaders for I have never studied. In fact, never studied the Bible until....and then when I started reading Jesus's words and listened or read what religion has taught I was appalled.

I agree with this. The problem IMO lies with Paul. He's what religion teaches instead of what Jesus said. I think it's the Jefferson Bible that stripped away all books other than the gospels and the Tanakh. Makes sense to me though I might have gotten a wee bit more basic.

Most speak of being "reborn". I believe it is actually a "reawakening". Many try too hard to predict their future when they should be trying to remember their past.

Too many people don't believe they have a past. It's a one time only kind of deal which is why they rely heavily on either just dying (meaning there is nothing) or heaven (because that's where the glory lies). Not enough bother with the glory that they can achieve here and now.

I wish your husband well.

Thanks!

What "knowledge" of today can prove the literal Creationist approach is wrong or even...... improbable?

How about something as basic as the calendar. That says enough. The Hebrew calendar didn't begin until Exodus 12. So up to that point, there is nothing by way of literalness in the usage of time. Surely you realize that the Hebrew calendar to this day is the same as it was then with the exception of a month being added every so many years so that it can accomodate for the 11 short (? not sure exactly how many days but I think it's 11) and does not go by the Christian/Catholic calendar that everyday society does.

I could be reading you wrong, but are you a literal creationist? I'm Christian, your Jewish, but do we agree on literal Creationism?

No. I was merely commenting on the fact that an all powerful all knowing G-d can't leave anything to chance because he knows everything and controls everything. It can't be both ways. As for creation, the creation story is there to give a beginning during a time when men couldn't explain things like evolution. Just like men gave Jesus a tribal heritage because they didn't have the knowledge of DNA.

My closest friend who has actually smuggled Bibles into China is a Messianic Jew. GO SEINFELD!

That is truly one of the funniest oxymorons.

Oh yeah... and I'm commenting on the Old Testament and not on Jewish culture, which I admire and respect very much.

The Jewish culture is based on the Tanakh so you're actually commenting on both. They go hand in hand. All of our laws and commandments are given....where? In the Torah. Where is the Torah? In the Tanakh.

Having absolutely no religious backround allowed me to study, interpret, and come to my own conclusions about the deity. I always prefer to read what Christ says rather than what man says. His truth is eternal.

My husband is now doing this and I think it's easier for him. Wait, he's not reading the words of Jesus though. Back to it being easier. I viewed my ways and opinions as tainted because I had an enormous Christian background while he did not. The notion of "being a Jew" bothered him at first because it's a small minority. It's hard to place one's self there. But he has totally started coming around and truly his only problem was with wearing a kippot (yarmulke).

What "knowledge" of today can prove the literal Creationist approach is wrong or even...... improbable?

That oil that turns into gas, that goes into your automobile, that pollutes this planet, is a pretty good indicator.

Besides the Bible what "knowledge" is their that literal Creationism is not improbable. Remember one can't use the Bible.

Oh my. Even I can't stand this and I was enjoying watching you two battle it out. Please read Isaiah 49 for the conext of Isaiah 53.

Yes listen to spam...start at 49 and keep reading!

Nowhere in the Constitution, nor in any subsequent amendment, does it say that the nation cannot endorse a religion. It does say, however, that Congress in specific cannot make a law respecting or promoting one.

Read those two sentences again. Define endorsing. Oh wait, you did in the second sentence.

Christians, at least all the Christians I know, do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God in the literal sense; it is metaphorical. I hope you weren't trying to make a serious argument there.

No, they believe he is a manifestation of G-d. Which is why I said the parts about male and female genitalia and it freaking people out to think of Jesus in that respect.

Have you not heard of the New Testament verses that refer to followers of Christ as the sons and daughters of God. It is simply different. Some things in the Word are symbolic, some are literal.

Keep in mind that Jesus was a Jew so what I said about him being the son of G-d like all of the other Jewish males would be what he was talking about. Some things don't change no matter how out of context one tries to take them.

The Old Testament is about the Father/creator. He creates the physical universe. He then selects a special people: the Hebrews, and delivers them to the promised land. Lots of things happen in between... and.......... then the New Testament pops in and the prophesied one, the Messiah appears and is sacrificed -- establishing the New Covenant, and now all people can come to fellowship with Yahweh, the Father through the Spirit.

Ok definitely not the same then. There is no messiah who is sacrificed in the Tanakh and all people had the ability to come to him through the laws of Noah which apply to all of humanity.

Christianity is not the worship of a man. It never has been.

I'm going to disagree. Let's see....do you close prayers with "in Jesus' name we/I pray?" Do you ever start them with "I come to you in the name of Jesus/your son/etc?" Do you say "Thank you Jesus?" How many more times do you hear the word Jesus than the word G-d? I understand that Jesus is said to be a manifestation of G-d which is yet another thing the moshaich is not but there is more focus in fundamentalism on "Jesus" and the "Bible." After all, he is the word. Yes?

It never has been. I believe in ONE God who is creator of all, ruler of all, and central through all. He has three aspects yet is one. The "one atom has three parts" theory of God is probably inaccurate, but the "matter has three forms" theory of God is more or less close. Just as H2O will always be H2O, it can be found in three forms: ice(solid), water(liquid), or steam(gas). There is ONE God, but he shows himself through the Bible in three ways.

Not buying it. G-d said he doesn't change into liquid, gas, or solid. Change is change.

Your faith falls apart if the Torah is found to be false, so what's the difference?

You failed to absorb I "have been taught a better way to live" as I see. That doesn't fall apart if the Torah is false. If I found out that it was, does that give me the right to go out and start killing? I could do that now since I have G-d given free will but I have been taught that it's what one isn't supposed to do. False or not, the lesson is still there. Look at the recent DNA evidence refuting the Book of Mormon. Do you see people fleeing from the faith? No. Why? Because it doesn't change the message. I know many Christians who if they found out Jesus was in fact nothing more than a template, they wouldn't change because they have found the message. I mean after all, doesn't the NT say that some will not be able to hear that message? The Tanakh says that the wicked are confused. It's in Daniel in case you're wondering.

It is up to you, but I would suggest reading the first chapter of the book of Matthew.

And here I might suggest that the gospels aren't consistent because she's married in one, engaged in another.

Ok... let me get this straight: you are arguing that Jesus cannot be of the lineage of David because Joseph isn't his real father, right?

Exactly.

Then it doesn't matter who is going to be the Messiah, because the mother HAS to be a virgin.

The Jewish moshaich is not born to a virgin. Read the verses before and after and all around before you draw that conclusion.

The Messiah will then be unable to be traced to David, because even if his earthly father can be traced to David, his earthly father cannot be his literal father, because he is born of a virgin, so both of are Bibles are wrong... uhhhhhhh...... ummmmm.....

Just your interpretation. Well and the NT if they are giving tribal rights.

The verse about Bethlehem in Micah CLEARLY says that out of Bethlehem will come ONE not many. ONE RULER, not many. Jesus fulfills prophecy.

Yes, one ruler will. That will be the moshaich. But tell me, what did Jesus rule again? Oh that's right. Let's go back to reading the first chapter of Matthew and then let's cross reference it. 1.12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel.

Do you see a name in there that causes another genealogy problem for Jesus? Check the curse in Jeremiah. It's for all time. "Record this man as without succession, one who shall never be found acceptable; for no man of his offspring shall be accepted to sit on the throne of David and to rule again in Judah." How do you reconcile that? The curse wasn't lifted.

Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is really a metaphor? If so, what do you base that on? Perhaps you are being sarcastic...

Perhaps I'm being literal. Take the names of the people alone in Hebrew and you'll see why it's metaphorical. Adam is adamah which is earth, clay. Eve is hawwah which is life. The root for Eden denotes fertility. The story of Adam and Eve's sin in the garden can be seen as in similarities to Gilgamesh, an epic poem that tells how a hero lost the opportunity for immorality and came to terms with his humanity. Adam and Eve had the ability to stay in the garden and eat from the tree of life as it was not off limits. They would have been able to live forever, eaten from the tree of knowledge perhaps and then been truly gods. They would have had equal longevity and knowledge.

But He hasn't been ruled out!!! He fulfilled every prophecy I cited, and the ones yet to be fulfilled WILL be fulfilled when He returns to earth in the full glory of God.

Then I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Then perhaps Jews should stop offering sacrifice, because their Messiah has already come:

Nothing promised has happened therefore we must continue to sacrifice.

ISAIAH 53

You will actually have to read several chapters before and even some after to get the full context of your proof text. It's not about Jesus.

It never says the Messiah will not come twice. Cite a verse if it does. The Old Testament is silent on that issue.

Death ceasing alone says one time only. When the moshaich comes, death will cease including his own. So if the moshaich won't die, how many times can he come? The fundamentalist Bible math kills me.

I am at peace too. I arrived at that peace through Jesus Christ. My brother as well -- and my father who I met for the first time a few months ago. It is unbelievable; a peace that removes all fear: fear of death, fear of rejection, and the fear of not knowing who God is.

For this I am happy for you. However, many close their mind. Jesus was a messenger of peace and love. GOD has sent many messengers, and most are crucified in one form or another. I, myself, go through this crucifixion by others for having an open mind, and the true realization of what Christ was saying.

I have heard the ole argument-you just can't make up your own interpretation. Poppycock, that is exactly what the Christian "religion" has done for years. I am a member of the Christian "faith". To me, there is a large difference. One can be a member of many "faith"s. Religion is too controlling. GOD did not put us here to be controlled. He put us here for his experience, and our ability to create. Yes, create.

Look everywhere. God is everywhere. The eternal light is everywhere. Every living thing, every inert object, in our music, in our everyday sayings. Pay close attention to nature. If one is truly Christian one would do battle against the forces that destroy nature for their own personal greed. That is why I rail against the Christian "Religion". Too many corner themselves on the "morality" issues while sticking their head in the sand about the destruction of our home which GOD gave dominion over. That is one of the biggest moral issues there is. I don't even hear it mentioned by the religion. I do hear it mentioned by members of the faith.

I don't like to comment on an on-going discussion by talking about nothing much more than just the discussion but, I can't help myself any more. Pardon my indulgence, please.

NO! We need MORE people talking! I feel like mine and nappy's names are the only two that I see.

So, this is a great discussion! But, it's coming down to some basics. The "Christians" using both the OT and the NT but using their own version and their own interpretations - which would be perfectly fine but they don't have the background or understanding of Judaism as a culture.

Exactly Al. And the culture is meshed with the Tanakh.

What almost no Christians seem to understand is that being Jewish really has almost nothing to do with religion. You can be recognized as a "real" Jew according to Judaism even if you practice some other religion or none at all. There's a huge portion that is cultural, anthropological, heritage, tradition, customs, language, societal, secular, etc... And, it's NOT the same as 21st century western anglo-european. So, what I'm trying to say without being too harsh is that the Christians just don't get it and probably never will unless they are willing to study it and live it for a couple of dozen years.

So, so, so very true. And a couple of dozen years it's going to take me! I can't imagine doing it and not being a part of it. That could be the reason why people don't tend to study those kinds of things. I enjoy learning about other religions that I haven't been a part of because it makes me more firm in my beliefs.

(BTW - I'm kinda like Shonet. I spent the first 25 years of my life in the fundie Christian environment and the last 25 years in a mostly Jewish environment. So, I have seen both sides and, well, let's just say that I'm not a Christian, now.)

And we're gutte neshome Al! It's hard to turn especially when you become the family heretic! But they can't help but to love us anyhow!

The other problem is that Jews (as well as most all us other non-Christians) do not believe in the NT and, in fact, don't trust it as a source. That same group doesn't put any stock in the whole idea that the prophesied Messiah has come. Some don't believe any part of the Messianic prohecies and others, like me, think that the Christians just got impatient because they truly thought (the Jesists, I mean) that the world was going to end next week so, this guy must be THE GUY. In fact, we know that they could have chosen any one of the dozens of "Messiahs" that were running around that part of the world at that time but, somebody had to be picked...

You know, I have no problem with Jesus as a prophet or reformed rabbi. Paul is the problem. He warped everything. And I think you're right about picking someone. One of the largest problems that I see is that Christians are not told that there were other people claiming to be the messiah. Do you know how shocked I was to learn that? It truly bothered me. There is so much information that is left out because they give sermons instead of teach. The first time I went to a shul and sat through a service, when people were raising their hands to ask questions, I was floored. I couldn't believe that people were encouraged to talk about it as a group and it wasn't done in smaller groups such as Sunday School settings (which that happens too). The Torah reading for the day was in Leviticus and was about eating your sacrifice before it spoils. The point of the discussion that day was that outside of the fact that they didn't have refrigeration of course was that G-d gave us time and that it shouldn't be wasted. It's precious and should be cherished as such. I walked away feeling more englightened in that first time than I truly could have ever been. I didn't have someone preaching time is precious, repent, be saved or go to hell. I had someone teaching time is precious, use it wisely as it's a gift from G-d.

So, the whole thing about trying to use any Christian version of either the OT or the NT is never going to convince non-Christians. The opposite is also true. (Which is why I look for references to coroborate in other historical texts but, since so many of the ancient libraries were burned in the name of one God or another, that's not an easy get!)

Which is why I got rid of King James!!!

OK, please don't interpret this message to say that y'all should stop - please don't! I like that you're keeping it civil - congratulations! It probably helps that so many of the "cry babies" put y'all on their "Ignore lists" - consider that a blessing from the God of your choice.

I kvel at that thought! (I'm practicing my Yiddish....can you tell?) My kids are learning too and it's hilarious to hear them say things. The other day two were arguing and another popped in with hocken a tchinik...basically he said, she said, he said. Eh, it gives me a good laugh anyhow.

What is it you are getting at? Chapter 49 just proves my point even more. 49 has even more prophecies about the Messiah.

49 through 57 are prophecies about Zion.

Originally posted by nappyhead

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by nappyhead
Then perhaps Jews should stop offering sacrifice, because their Messiah has already come:

ISAIAH 53...

Oh my. Even I can't stand this and I was enjoying watching you two battle it out. Please read Isaiah 49 for the conext of Isaiah 53.

What is it you are getting at? Chapter 49 just proves my point even more. 49 has even more prophecies about the Messiah.

So in your opinion, these prove that the "servant" in the subsequent chapters is referring to the Messiah?


Isaiah 49:3
He said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor."

Isaiah 49:14
But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me."

Isaiah 49:19-20
"Though you were ruined and made desolate and your land laid waste, now you will be too small for your people, and those who devoured you will be far away.

The children born during your bereavement will yet say in your hearing, 'This place is too small for us; give us more space to live in.' "



The servant is the nation of Israel, not the messiah. Isaiah 53 is the anthropomorphism of Israel, not messianic prophecy.

I'm a Gutte Neshome? Actually, I don't know more than a few Yiddish phrases and I didn't know this one. I had to go and look it up at:
www.koshernosh.com...
(this is a great site because it has WAV files that pronounce the words for you)

So, thank you!