Ancient Global Civilization

originally posted by: AndyMayhew
In any case, if Atlantis existed it was just a bronze age culture readily defeated by another bronze age culture (Athens).

If Atlantis existed then I imagine them as being just on the cusp of creating consistent agriculture, domesticating animals, and creating consistent laws suitable for living in a more complex and urban society. And once the asteroid hit, those things had to be rebooted and relearned from old myths. In modern-day Turkey because of the climate effects. Athens took credit thousands of years later for kicking their butts, because why not? They're not around anymore to dispute it.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: AndyMayhew
In any case, if Atlantis existed it was just a bronze age culture readily defeated by another bronze age culture (Athens).

If Atlantis existed then I imagine them as being just on the cusp of creating consistent agriculture, domesticating animals, and creating consistent laws suitable for living in a more complex and urban society. And once the asteroid hit, those things had to be rebooted and relearned from old myths. In modern-day Turkey because of the climate effects. Athens took credit thousands of years later for kicking their butts, because why not? They're not around anymore to dispute it.

In truth, Plato credited a [/]different Athens for that.

The story plainly implies that it was a previous culture of Greeks that were all destroyed by subsequent catastrophes, except for the backward mountain folk that eventually repopulated Greece.

No other Athenian ever made that claim prior to Plato. You'd think it would be a big part of their culture, you know, like the Trojan War was.

Harte

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
No other Athenian ever made that claim prior to Plato. You'd think it would be a big part of their culture, you know, like the Trojan War was.

Well, the text has the senior Egyptian priest explaining that, "From a small remnant of their seed you and all your citizens are derived; but you know nothing of it because the survivors for many generations died leaving no word in writing.” Which among the other things the priest supposedly said -- including the stuff about periodic floods and meteor bombardments -- is pretty accurate. The Greeks didn't even come up with writing until thousands of years after the events in question, and several hundred years after the Trojan War. Hard to brag about something literally (non-literally?) prehistoric.

Thousands of years. A thousand years ago everybody on the continent where I'm living was still Neolithic. Who knows what glorious battles they fought? Maybe even against some stray Atlanteans who managed to survive the crustal plate drop.

originally posted by: bluealert82

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: fotsyfots

But you don't mind another high school teacher insisting he knows the history of the Earth
Yeah. I see.

Harte

Do you think that all patent clerks are capable of coming up with special relativity? Or do you perhaps think that despite similar careers, people are capable of very different things?
Randall Carlson is quite obviously not the standard model for what a teacher gets up to outside of the classroom. I've heard of him and his ideas. Never heard of you.
Maybe tone it down a notch there champ.

randallcarlson.net...

So what great things has he done? Actually lets not disrupt this thread - may I suggest you start a thread and tell us all about RC and his evidence for x, y and z? Thanks

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Harte
No other Athenian ever made that claim prior to Plato. You'd think it would be a big part of their culture, you know, like the Trojan War was.

Well, the text has the senior Egyptian priest explaining that, "From a small remnant of their seed you and all your citizens are derived; but you know nothing of it because the survivors for many generations died leaving no word in writing.” Which among the other things the priest supposedly said -- including the stuff about periodic floods and meteor bombardments -- is pretty accurate. The Greeks didn't even come up with writing until thousands of years after the events in question, and several hundred years after the Trojan War. Hard to brag about something literally (non-literally?) prehistoric.

Thousands of years. A thousand years ago everybody on the continent where I'm living was still Neolithic. Who knows what glorious battles they fought? Maybe even against some stray Atlanteans who managed to survive the crustal plate drop.

Archaeologically there was nobody there to take on the 'Atlanteans' and certainly not 'Greeks' or 'Athenians'. Nor were there any organized 'Egypt', no writing and nothing beyond small villages......

Plato was telling a fictional story not history.

Plato was retelling a story that had been told to him by a priest who had traveled to Egypt and had heard the story from priest there. At the time around 600BCE, the story was 9000 years old. Yes 9000 years. Supposedly the survivors of that 9000 year old cataclysm were the ones who build the pyramids. It should be quite obvious to any and all that Main stream Egyptologists are WAY off on the age of the pyramids. I personally think the remaining outer shell or rock at the top of the Pyramid of Khufu are the waterline from the last flood.

a reply to: Hanslune

originally posted by: FirePilotFilson
Plato was retelling a story that had been told to him by a priest who had traveled to Egypt and had heard the story from priest there. At the time around 600BCE, the story was 9000 years old. Yes 9000 years. Supposedly the survivors of that 9000 year old cataclysm were the ones who build the pyramids. It should be quite obvious to any and all that Main stream Egyptologists are WAY off on the age of the pyramids. I personally think the remaining outer shell or rock at the top of the Pyramid of Khufu are the waterline from the last flood.

a reply to: Hanslune

Sorry, no. Read the story, as I've said multitple times in this thread.
It is amusing how much people think they know about this without ever even reading it.

Harte

originally posted by: FirePilotFilson
Plato was retelling a story that had been told to him by a priest who had traveled to Egypt and had heard the story from priest there. At the time around 600BCE, the story was 9000 years old. Yes 9000 years. Supposedly the survivors of that 9000 year old cataclysm were the ones who build the pyramids. It should be quite obvious to any and all that Main stream Egyptologists are WAY off on the age of the pyramids. I personally think the remaining outer shell or rock at the top of the Pyramid of Khufu are the waterline from the last flood.

a reply to: Hanslune

He wasn't told a story by a priest - I'll let you be corrected by Harte on that.

There were two courses of RC dating of monuments and these place the building of the pyramids in or around 2,800 BC.



The above are the RC dates for the GP below is the full study. I recommend it!

journals.uair.arizona.edu...



The above link is to the graph that shows the dates of many other Old Kingdom sites.

Oh no great flood - you might want to check what the Bible says about covering the mountains while Giza is less than a 100 meters above sea level....just sayin'


Regards

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bluealert82

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: fotsyfots

But you don't mind another high school teacher insisting he knows the history of the Earth
Yeah. I see.

Harte

Do you think that all patent clerks are capable of coming up with special relativity? Or do you perhaps think that despite similar careers, people are capable of very different things?
Randall Carlson is quite obviously not the standard model for what a teacher gets up to outside of the classroom. I've heard of him and his ideas. Never heard of you.
Maybe tone it down a notch there champ.

randallcarlson.net...

So what great things has he done? Actually lets not disrupt this thread - may I suggest you start a thread and tell us all about RC and his evidence for x, y and z? Thanks

I think you've read another post entirely. I never actually attributed any "great things" to him, nor do I really wish to rehash his research for you.
If you think that all school teachers are exactly the same in every aspect of their lives then more power to ya.

a reply to: reject
It's a far speculation, but its quite possible we arnt from this planet at all.
Look how we live.
From what we are capable of.
For all we know...there couldve been a humanoid race living here before us, and we erased them from the planet.
Or we are genetically integrated ourselves into the already existing populations here. Waiting for the day we were advanced enough to decode the DNA and extract it to remake who we once were.

You arrogant m-fears.
Screw your little club of odious pansophists.
End of discussion.
You are entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be.
Way to encourage discussion assholes
You can go F off now twits

I SHOUld have known better than to attempt to engage in any sort of discussion on this website. I forgot it was full of PhDs in every field that exists many times over and that every single one of them is always right about everything every time.
A Circle jerk echo chamber is what it has become.
Back to stroking each other now boys, you know how you like it

Always amuses me when people make absolute statements on possible events thousands of years ago, when we don't even have solid/complete records from several hundred years ago.

There very well could have been an advanced civilization that we don't have records of, it's farcical to think we know of every single civilization ever.
Maybe Plato told a 100% fictional story, or maybe he told a story based off an old fable/oral history.

We cannot know for certain right now it's all conjecture at best.

I’ve read Plato, don’t get hot under the collar with Harte and Hanslune , they can’t actually engage with other humans very well, it’s their Skeptical outlook, you know, the outlook that allows them to proclaim from above things like this from Hanslune -” Plato was telling a fictional story not history “ now, that’s just HIS opinion, not fact .
Firstly , In Timaeus, it is stated that the story is ‘true’ that it is ‘old world ‘ (possibly referring to the end of the Pleistocene melt events?) and regardless of Harte’s statement that there is no evidence for Atlantis in Plato’s timeframe , Harte’s statement is a great sleight of hand- Plato never stated it WAS during his time frame ; It is stated that the Egyptian priest states that their civilisation started 8000 yrs before Solon, and that the Greek ancestor race were 1000 yrs older than them- the proto-Greeks/Athenians repelled an attack from a ‘power’ based in an island in the Atlantic , and AFTER THAT, the cataclysmic event occurs, earthquakes , sea level rise etc: in Timaeus it states...

As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago, I will briefly inform you of their laws and of their most famous action; ...... Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

So don’t be put off by the skeptics- skepticism is a form of ‘research disability ‘ an inability to keep an open mind to all possibilities , and an ability to keep a closed , threatened mind .
Just so you know, there have been REAL scientific papers done (benade etc) regarding the Azores plateau and surrounding submerged seamounts showing multiple HUGE landslides
( check out the seamount names , WHY would they be named as they are?) , core samples done , revealing SHORE-LINE SAND and shallow water crustacean and fauna remains, and conclusions drawn that the ENTIRE plateau had somehow isostatically submerged, risen , submerged again .
Timaeus conveys the information that the Atlantic was ‘ far more navigable then’ (old world, more water locked up in Pleistocene ice caps? ,lower sea level?) and that Atlantis was part of islands that led to more islands and then ‘the other continent’ . So the Greeks knew of the Americas?
Perhaps we should give our ancestors , and the story learners/repeaters, more credit than blandly compartmentalising the detailed and well-learned information they kept as mere allegory .
Kind of makes a mockery of Harte and his sycophantic mates’ assured assertions , doesn’t it?

Deny ignorance indeed...

originally posted by: bluealert82

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bluealert82

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: fotsyfots

But you don't mind another high school teacher insisting he knows the history of the Earth
Yeah. I see.

Harte

Do you think that all patent clerks are capable of coming up with special relativity? Or do you perhaps think that despite similar careers, people are capable of very different things?
Randall Carlson is quite obviously not the standard model for what a teacher gets up to outside of the classroom. I've heard of him and his ideas. Never heard of you.
Maybe tone it down a notch there champ.

randallcarlson.net...

So what great things has he done? Actually lets not disrupt this thread - may I suggest you start a thread and tell us all about RC and his evidence for x, y and z? Thanks

I think you've read another post entirely. I never actually attributed any "great things" to him, nor do I really wish to rehash his research for you.
If you think that all school teachers are exactly the same in every aspect of their lives then more power to ya.

Ah so another nobody not worth mentioning then....I see

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Always amuses me when people make absolute statements on possible events thousands of years ago, when we don't even have solid/complete records from several hundred years ago.

There very well could have been an advanced civilization that we don't have records of, it's farcical to think we know of every single civilization ever.
Maybe Plato told a 100% fictional story, or maybe he told a story based off an old fable/oral history.

We cannot know for certain right now it's all conjecture at best.

He may have been referring to 'something' but what he might have had in mind other than a political discussion has been lost to us - along with the end of the story.

originally posted by: bluesfreak
I’ve read Plato, don’t get hot under the collar with Harte and Hanslune , they can’t actually engage with other humans very well, it’s their Skeptical outlook, you know, the outlook that allows them to proclaim from above things like this from Hanslune -” Plato was telling a fictional story not history “ now, that’s just HIS opinion, not fact .

Its a lot of people opinions and what was Plato discussing, his opinion. When you get onto subjects with no hard evidence you are left with opinions. However we do know as a fact that no Athenian or Egyptian writing or civilization existed then - per the evidence we currently have. There is no archaeological evidence of 'Atlantis' either, nor any huge sunken continent.

Deleted a lot of your opinion on Plato's opinions......lol

Firstly , Plato NEVER says ‘continent’ he says ‘island’, bit of a difference.
Secondly, you continue to do a great job of making yourself look an arse on here, by trying to ape Harte’s under-friendly manner, you don’t quite cut it though , just sound arrogant.
How typical of you to delete a load of my post that you don’t want to talk about, your Skepsis infection has really taken hold, hasn’t it?
The possibility of isostatic behaviour coupled with sea level rise is beyond you , I suppose.
Have a peek here at what emerges around the 6 second mark- also note the other ‘islands’ that start to emerge toward the ‘other continent’.WOW, Plato was a pretty good guesser wasn’t he, considering the event matches closely with Younger Dryas event, meltwater pulses.
Isostatic behaviour/ice cap melt, water weight causing this couldn’t possibly be in your scope ..
make sure you delete most of what I wrote again , like a child with his hands over his ears ‘blah blah blah ‘ ,Shame you are all so rude .
Oh, and make sure you don’t comment on the isostacy related evidence of shore lines and shallow water fossils on the submerged Azores plataeu.
NASA drain the Oceans
a reply to: Hanslune

As I've said elsewhere, I think that the idea of a small civilization existing on the Azores Plateau which was lost due to some fairly rapid catastrophe -- a meteor impact -- is at very least plausible and certainly worthy of conjecture. Whether Plato created the story himself out of whole cloth or was told the story by an anonymous source only indicates to me that if he was just guessing or philosophizing, he did a hell of a job getting as much potentially right as he did.

Of course finding some kind of proof would be nice, but we're talking about a small group of people who used to be in a place that is now and has supposedly under quite a bit of water for over 10,000 years. We have a hard time finding stuff that old on land that has always been high and dry. Even if there wasn't a huge catastrophe, the chances of finding hard evidence of such a civilization would be very slim and we might not even recognize the tiny fragments of it if we found it.

I prefer to stay open to the idea. Not that it means anything to us here in the present. Any knowledge such people might have acquired would be of no use to us now. Any gods they worshiped are all long dead in temples buried under hundreds of feet of silt. Still, it would be nice all around to think that at least some of the tales we've been handed down over the centuries were based on real things, and it makes modern humanity's past just a little less murky during a time when there was so much climatic upheaval.

But, hey. We still have those odd folks who build Gobekli Tepe to figure out. What got a bunch of hunter gatherers organized enough to build some temples with such impressive stone work. Gotta wonder what their deal was.

Harte/Hanslune...maybe the same...Harte linked me to The Travels of Pedro. I downloaded the pfd files and found a section on Tiahuanaco which interested me. I will make a post once I have time to do some cut and paste. Condescending comments serve no purpose except to antagonise. All opinions should be respected.