The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by truthseeka
Really? That's a more rock solid conspiracy than the Chinese guy getting arrested for possession of Bibles?

That's a good one too.

Originally posted by truthseeka

More than the other stuff I mentioned?

It doesn't have to be "big" to be part of the conspiracy. It can be, but doesn't have to be.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I now realize that you want to be hated.

What in the world? Please explain the psychology behind "wanting to be hated".

Originally posted by truthseeka
That makes sense with the bible verses about scoffers in the last days.

The last days have been coming for the last 2000 years, but don't worry, they'll come.

The day and hour are unknown. Matthew 24:36. It really helps to read more that one sentence of the Bible.

Originally posted by truthseeka
It's cool, though. It's funnier for me this way; this thread is highly entertaining. "There's a conspiracy, man. It's not stuff that happens in real life, it's our twisted interpretation of other people's words on this site, man. The last days are here for sure, man."

I don't think the last days are here. I don't see anything lining up to Revelation as of yet, but as Matthew says, all that can change. I guess this part was meant for someone else?

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
My friend saint.

Hey friend Madman! Thanks for the history by the way, I was totally interested in how you came upon faith and am glad things are working out . Somebody said something very powerful the other day here on ATS (paraphrase) "the only place eternal happiness is guarenteed is in heaven".

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Would you please give me a little clarification on what you are trying to interpret?

I shall do my best, per below

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
I can only read that all must come into being for the passage to have meaning.

I think this passage is being taken out of context. Jesus tells things that will happen by the end of that generation of apostles (not Revelation, the end of the world, etc.). I believe it happened as he said, those things and that the apostles were directly and intimately involved with those events.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
My thinking that the word "generation" can be used in a really broad sense. Such as the generation called "man"?

It's certainly possible I think.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
That the generation of "man" will not pass away until Jesus has returned?

Could be.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Is that what you are trying to say?

Not me, no. I was saying the generation meaning those living during the time of the apostles. They did go out and announce the good news to the far reaches of th world so the message was spread. Jesus did die and return. I just don't think this passage has to do with the "end of the world" in any way.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

If you view Matthew 24 as fulfilled already, here are a few questions:

Matthew 24
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The tribulation in the first century was greater than at any other time!? What about the black plague? (what about noah's flood for that matter)

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

cough cough, solar mythology, cough cough.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I look up at the night sky, and I see stars.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is talking about all men, not just a few 1st century Christians. Where are the records of Jesus appearing to everyone in the clouds of heaven? Unless of course, cough, cough, solar mythology, cough.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If the elect have already been gathered, you aint one of 'em.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



[edit on 15-11-2005 by spamandham]

I think there were some good points made here.

Originally posted by spamandham
If you view Matthew 24 as fulfilled already, here are a few questions:

Matthew 24
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The tribulation in the first century was greater than at any other time!? What about the black plague? (what about noah's flood for that matter)

Actually Jesus does make mention of Noah's flood in that chapter.

Originally posted by spamandham
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

cough cough, solar mythology, cough cough.

The Bible mentions lightning! It must be solar mythology! or is it meteorology?

Originally posted by spamandham
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I look up at the night sky, and I see stars.

Good for you. Now were you there when Jesus descended into hell for 3 days?

Originally posted by spamandham
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is talking about all men, not just a few 1st century Christians. Where are the records of Jesus appearing to everyone in the clouds of heaven? Unless of course, cough, cough, solar mythology, cough.

Solid! I think this is a good case for it not having occurred yet. The Bible doesn't make mention of the Son coming in the clouds, rather ascending up to them. It's a good match to Revelation where he comes on a cloud. The Bible makes mention of Jesus appearing to many though it does not say how he appreared. It could be coming in the clouds of heaven, or it could not. I'm with ya though, it gives a good lean that these things have yet to occur.

Originally posted by spamandham
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If the elect have already been gathered, you aint one of 'em.

I considered the possibility of the "elect" being the apostles, though I can also see how it means all believers also. Interesting.

Originally posted by spamandham
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Back to the "generation" question again. I can see both sides.

I do know within that passage, that the day and hour are unknown, so for anyone to say "it's the end!", well, very hard to make that claim as a Christian when the Bible says otherwise.

I'd like to devote more study to this. Anyone else like to throw in some opinions?

[edit on 15-11-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by karie
No you may have not condemned what I said but you judge, and by-the-way,attacked me personally by calling me a self-righteous and better then anyone else., and as far as assuming, if you know the Holy Bible as well as you say, then you would not have called me a prohet. I am not a seerer, otherwords, a prohet. And if you get this attitude from what I have said, then according to the bible, you have just judge and condemned me to hell, like all the christian churches do. And knowing the Holy Bible, you would know that Jesus doesn't tolerate this.

And as far as stating all christians have this attitude, you are totoally wrong. I am a christan, because I believe in Christ. But I am not going to try to save anyones soul or whatever. If you knew me personally and went to church faithfully, you would see me as a non-believer, as most of the christian people I know do. I was born going to a christian congregation and babtised another. So as far as being afraid to see or know the truth, I am not afraid because I have seen it in my dreams and in this world and it is a lot uglier than what christian churches teach. The bible isn't my only source of information. Try reading satan's bible. Or is this the real bible you speak of? And like the Alcoholics, faith has pulled me through. I do realize what I said about the only thing getting me through the day is faith in Jesus, because I was raised to believe in Jesus Christ the way most christians are, but didn't believe what they were saying. I felt and still do sometimes that I must be a child of satan myself. But faith in Jesus keeps me going. And somehow someway I will do my best to teach what the Holy bible says and not what the leaders teach.

And most important, this thread is about christianity, anti or for, so it is about Jesus. Anything to do with christianity has to do with Jesus. And there is someone in here that seems to understand christianity, JFdarby. Crist is christianity, Jesus is Christ, and Jesus is God.

Hi, karie,
Thank you for this. This proves to me that some Christians are open minded, and have no need to "save" all of us "sinners" from their place of punishment. To my mind, we all have differing beliefs, some of us are open about this, some are closed.
The point is that one believe in something Divine/Spiritual, or some Creator Deity, God and /or Goddess or both. The rituals, symbols, lifestyle, and personal beliefs are the person's buiness alone. Now some people need the collective-belonging to a group or church, or temple.......basically a church oriented lifestyle, while others tend to stick to simple, personal prayers, with no real need to attend services or belong to a group. Many think that Witches/Wiccans all belong to Covens, but this is a fallacy. So is that every Christian believe in Jesus as God.
I have read that they exist, but I have never heard of, or seen one. Of the Wiccans I know personally, all are very nature oriented, believe in God, and Goddess, and never harm anyone, or anything. I know Christians like this too, good people, Lets just call us all good people, and let it go with that.

Here are some links one may be interested in:
/cxep6
/c4342/url]
[url]/ce43o
/balgv

Originally posted by Phoenix13
Also, Christians feel that their religion is the only right one around. If this is the case then why do they not mention thousands of years of Chinese history, Northern European history, African history, or the Americas. Notice that the bible only contains what is now Isreal, Egypt, Libya, Syria, and the Roman Empire. So is it this evidence enough that it IS a man made religion, and not a divine one.

Good thought, Phoenix! Christianity is not now, nor it never was, the "only true way."
What we have here is the Holy Roman Church, not modern christians, conquering nations and installng their God, their belief system, and their ways on the local populace....that is, after all of [their] gods were smashed, their texts burned as "heratic" and some of their people slaughtered as a lesson. The world was much smaller then. Thanks for listening. MM

The problem with most folks who hate Christianity is that they:

#1 Don't know much about the Bible
#2 Don't really know what they believe (see #1)
#3 Have a religion that doesn't look kindly on others
#4 Are ignorant and provocative against EVERY religion
#5 And the last are just jerking your chain

Case in point. When I tell someone about what I believe they freak out especially Christians. I have found more tolerance from non-believers and "believers". Sorry for the cut and paste but this is what I believe:

"Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:46-49).

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12)

"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9).

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).

"As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine" (I Timothy 1:3).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16).


Simple really. There is only ONE God and his Name is JESUS. There is only one method of baptism, that is, emersion in Jesus NAME. There is only ONE way to make sure you are born again, that is, evidence of speaking in tongues. This is what the Apostles taught. This is what I believe. Simple The Church started in Acts and continues to this day. No one was saved in the Gospels because Christ had not died. The letters from Romans to Revelation are to the saints already born again, not for the unbelievers. Simple. Why is it that in the Old Testament that there was only One God and in the New we all of a sudden have a three headed freak? MAN. That is why. So we can see all through history that MAN is the problem. God changes not. So we will be persecuted for our faith. That is the Anti-Christian conspiracy. They are rebelling against God for the reasons above. Or they are just have sport with you (or others).

that instead of addressing the beliefs of Christianity, that of Christ and God, one has to resort to the recounting of sins of some of the poor examples of some followers. Rather than recounting the sins of people of another belief, let me state a few things that will support the claim that there exists flawed human beings, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. And now, one more applicable to the prosecutor in this case:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)

Originally posted by saint4God
that instead of addressing the beliefs of Christianity, that of Christ and God, one has to resort to the recounting of sins of some of the poor examples of some followers. Rather than recounting the sins of people of another belief, let me state a few things that will support the claim that there exists flawed human beings, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. And now, one more applicable to the prosecutor in this case:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5)

Right. The only thing is that look what he was talking about. Wood. A speck of sawdust and a plank. Both are wood. It could be said he was talking about someone who has the same kind of sin (i.e. telling lies, stealing or adultry). The person accusing the other prolly has that sin too. So in essence, clean up your sin before you accuse others of those same sins.

Simple really. There is only ONE God and his Name is JESUS. There is only one method of baptism, that is, emersion in Jesus NAME. There is only ONE way to make sure you are born again, that is, evidence of speaking in tongues. This is what the Apostles taught. This is what I believe. Simple The Church started in Acts and continues to this day. No one was saved in the Gospels because Christ had not died. The letters from Romans to Revelation are to the saints already born again, not for the unbelievers. Simple. Why is it that in the Old Testament that there was only One God and in the New we all of a sudden have a three headed freak? MAN. That is why. So we can see all through history that MAN is the problem. God changes not. So we will be persecuted for our faith. That is the Anti-Christian conspiracy. They are rebelling against God for the reasons above. Or they are just have sport with you (or others).

Hold your horses there my friend.

#1-JESUS is not GOD. Jesus was the son of GOD. Just as we all are.

#2-ONLY the apostles had the ability to speak in tongues. They could not "teach" others to do it. Apparently you attend a "church" where this is done? Is so, head for the exit quietly and quickly. The speaking in "tongues" was the ability of Christ and later given to his apostles of being able to understand the various languages and distinctions worldwide. Nothing more and nothing less.

#3-So you are going to blame man and man only? A fairly good place to start, however one can't put all of mankind into the buttonhole. Apparently, where you are going for your faith may be giving yourself the ole brainwashing so as to follow it's way of thinking.

Now, if you think I am "rebelling" against GOD for pointing these three things out(there could have been more) than I do STRONGLY ADVISE hitting the exit where you are learning. It is in itself anti-GOD.

Not being judgemental. Just call them as I read them.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

Hold your horses there my friend.

#1-JESUS is not GOD. Jesus was the son of GOD. Just as we all are.

#2-ONLY the apostles had the ability to speak in tongues. They could not "teach" others to do it. Apparently you attend a "church" where this is done? Is so, head for the exit quietly and quickly. The speaking in "tongues" was the ability of Christ and later given to his apostles of being able to understand the various languages and distinctions worldwide. Nothing more and nothing less.

#3-So you are going to blame man and man only? A fairly good place to start, however one can't put all of mankind into the buttonhole. Apparently, where you are going for your faith may be giving yourself the ole brainwashing so as to follow it's way of thinking.

Now, if you think I am "rebelling" against GOD for pointing these three things out(there could have been more) than I do STRONGLY ADVISE hitting the exit where you are learning. It is in itself anti-GOD.

Not being judgemental. Just call them as I read them.

No offense taken. I can tell about it because I have EXPERIENCED it for myself. There is no teacher better than experience. I was trinitarian baptist before I came to Truth. If what I believe is error, then I will still make it to heaven (provided I stay Holy). If on the other hand you are wrong and what I believe is true...your soul R in the hands of a merciful God is all I can say.

Sorry for the edit but I gotta say do you think that speaking in tongues isn't for everyone how do you balance that with scripture? I do by reading John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38-39, Acts 8:15-17, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6. As for the Jesus is God thing, I will list out the reasons:

1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.

2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.

3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.

4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.

5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."

6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.

7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.

8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.

9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."

10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.

11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.

12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.

13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.

14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.

15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.

16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.

17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.

18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.

19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8

20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.

21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18

22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.

23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.

24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10

25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.

26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.

27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.

28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.

29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.

30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.

31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.

32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.

33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.

34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.

35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.

36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.

37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.

38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.

39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.

40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.

41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8

42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.

43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.

44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.

45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.

46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.

47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.

48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.

49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.

50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.

51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.

52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.

53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.

54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.

55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.

56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.

57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.

58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.

59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.

60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.

easy, peasy,123sy



[edit on 15-11-2005 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
No offense taken. I can tell about it because I have EXPERIENCED it for myself. There is no teacher better than experience.

Your experience was deception to see how gullible you are. If god exists, he only wants those who realize there is no reason to believe he exists. He despises faith. That's what my EXPERIENCE tells me is the TRUTH.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
No offense taken. I can tell about it because I have EXPERIENCED it for myself. There is no teacher better than experience.

Your experience was deception to see how gullible you are. If god exists, he only wants those who realize there is no reason to believe he exists. He despises faith. That's what my EXPERIENCE tells me is the TRUTH.

UR funny.

Originally posted by spamandham

If god exists,

that's the $64,000 Question and always has been. There are, remarkably, a number of well established, world renowned scientists, who, because of their deep understanding of the universe, have decided that there is a 'God'. I prefer the term Deity, but, really, it's the same idea of a sentient creator behind all of what we see.

he

Supposition #1...how do we surmise the sex of the Deity? Isn't it anthromorphing this Deity? Why do we need to make this being like us?

only wants those who realize there is no reason to believe he exists.

Supposition #2...you can't possibly believe you know the mind of this Deity and what it wants?

He despises faith.

Supposition #3, but one I'd like to discuss. What does faith, or unquestioning acceptance, have to do with understanding the Creator? If this being exists, then we will someday come to understand It (one way or another). If Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking have come to terms with the notion of a Creator, then, who am I to disclaim it?

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

Hold your horses there my friend.

#1-JESUS is not GOD. Jesus was the son of GOD. Just as we all are.

#2-ONLY the apostles had the ability to speak in tongues. They could not "teach" others to do it. Apparently you attend a "church" where this is done? Is so, head for the exit quietly and quickly. The speaking in "tongues" was the ability of Christ and later given to his apostles of being able to understand the various languages and distinctions worldwide. Nothing more and nothing less.

#3-So you are going to blame man and man only? A fairly good place to start, however one can't put all of mankind into the buttonhole. Apparently, where you are going for your faith may be giving yourself the ole brainwashing so as to follow it's way of thinking.

Now, if you think I am "rebelling" against GOD for pointing these three things out(there could have been more) than I do STRONGLY ADVISE hitting the exit where you are learning. It is in itself anti-GOD.

Not being judgemental. Just call them as I read them.

I had to make an edit above for you. Sorry for the length but there is a lot of evidence to support my belief.

I only recently joined this board and I'm glad to see a good pace and diversity in the conversations going on here, it's refreshing.

I've wrote on my blog a little bit about Christianity as a religion and in my opinion why the Christian Church will die if it does not change the way that it relates and moves in today's culture...the blog was a little long and I don't want to take up a ton of room here so I thought I'd just post the link and a few quotes from it...thanks for your thoughts and time!

Here's the article on my blog

"The Church of our fathers is dying - member by distinguished member with no cure in site. At some point in the last 10 to 15 years America stopped caring about God.Churches were no longer seen as places of community and brotherly love but as places of cultural and religious segregation and family traditions long-dead."

"We had seen great men fail utterly in their pursuit of righteousness and beg for forgiveness on national television, only to rise to the top and fall all over again...America's patience for these supposed "Men of God" was being given the ultimate test and failing under the pressure...We had seen and heard stories of local respected pastors frequenting whore houses and meeting with known drug dealers...Feeding addictions of drugs and sex, abuse in the home and sexual harassment in the church office...We had seen the Catholic church go through so many sex scandals in such a short period of time that no one had time to recover from one accusation of sexual abuse before the next accusation came out...our collective heads were spinning from all of the sin that was becoming evident and apparent from the inside of these places of supposed Righteousness and Holiness...America was tired of seeing the mighty falling to their knees to beg for forgiveness - all the while screaming from their pulpits that they had been ordained by "God Almighty" to turn others away from sin and toward righteousness...America wasn't buying it."

How many churches have you gone to?

How long were you attending those?

How old were you when you attended?

Did you go by and for yourself, or did a family member make you go? If no one made you go, why did you go? What were you looking for?

What have you personally observed at these churches that you did not like?

Originally posted by saint4God
How many churches have you gone to?

How long were you attending those?

How old were you when you attended?

Did you go by and for yourself, or did a family member make you go? If no one made you go, why did you go? What were you looking for?

What have you personally observed at these churches that you did not like?

Hi, great questions for sure. I'll try and answer them as succintly as possible...

1. I have attended at least a dozen churches as an active member
2. At least 2 years or more at each one of those...I had to leave them because of moving away to another area or state.
3. All ages, since birth up until recently...I'm 28 now
4. At first I went because it was parents religion, I chose this path for myself when I was about 16, as an adult I went for spiritual edification and personal growth.
5. Well, this is the big question and one that would take far too long to answer in this format (plus the fact that I'm at work right now...shhhh)...I'd love for you to stop by my blog if you get a chance because I have detailed my personal experiences for about the past year and I believe you'll get a pretty good picture.

6. You didn't ask but I feel compelled to tell you I was in ministry as Youth Minister, Music Minister and Counselor in Christian Churches for 12 years until this past summer.
Thanks for asking me questions, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Originally posted by BFD
1. I have attended at least a dozen churches as an active member
2. At least 2 years or more at each one of those...I had to leave them because of moving away to another area or state.
3. All ages, since birth up until recently...I'm 28 now

Interesting how similar our paths are...except I've yet to join a church as a member. I'm still nomadic , not to say I didn't like the ones I'd attended, just move along every few years until recently.

Originally posted by BFD
4. At first I went because it was parents religion, I chose this path for myself when I was about 16, as an adult I went for spiritual edification and personal growth.
5. Well, this is the big question and one that would take far too long to answer in this format (plus the fact that I'm at work right now...shhhh)...I'd love for you to stop by my blog if you get a chance because I have detailed my personal experiences for about the past year and I believe you'll get a pretty good picture.

Sure. I took a glance at it, but looking through, it didn't look personal, in that it looked more like a report on what what wrong with Christianity. I doubt you'd like to read about my report of what is right with Christianity, though we could exchange notes if you are interested.

Originally posted by BFD
6. You didn't ask but I feel compelled to tell you I was in ministry as Youth Minister, Music Minister and Counselor in Christian Churches for 12 years until this past summer.
Thanks for asking me questions, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

You were a Counselor at age 16? That's phenomenal! The one I go to looks for at least a Bachelor's Degree, sometime Master's in a related field.

I'll have to read your blog before asking more. Got a ton of questions but as you say, many may be answered already. Be with you shortly.

Thanks Saint, I'd enjoy talking with you about whatever...you can shoot me an email if you [email protected]

Oh...the Counselor thing didn't happen until I was 22, and then it was with the Youth that I was looking after...I think the title Counsler should have been replaced with Listener though.

[edit on 15-11-2005 by BFD]