The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by shaunybaby
ohright so calling people names gets you somewhere now? before you called me a stubborn goat, why just a goat now?

Shauny, I don't believe you're a stubbord old goat. I don't believe you're a goat either. It was a tongue-in-cheek remark to the sheep comment. The difference is you were serious in calling me a sheep and I was kidding. I apologize if I took the joke too far.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
funny as it may seem, that's what you're acting like. you always use sarcasm or humour as a way of avoiding a question too.

Alright alright, sorry again for not being serious. *clears throat* To answer your question, I don't feel repressed. I feel free. I do think there are unjustified and sometimes coordinated attacks upon those who label themselves Christian. I've labeled myself that in my username to spurr questions and discussion. So, I have painted a target on myself, but to do anything else is to deny who I am.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
yeah that's you. you don't like the rule of no candy, but you put up with it anyway. me on the other hand, i would just eat the candy. what's the worst a teacher would do...send you out the room? detention?

Unfortunately the 'teacher' in our analogy is God, and yes, he would send a person 'to detention' but it's not as harmless as we think.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
wow, what a free-thinker. watch out candidates, for the 'free-thinker 2006 nobel prize', here comes saintforgod.

Why thank ya sir, thumbs up to you too .

Originally posted by shaunybaby
there you are again putting yourself down. do you always try so hard to make yourself feel down, worthless, and depressed?

I live a remarkably happy life. I have all I need and many things I want. I'm very active in Kung-Fu, theatre, have a job I enjoy and a family I care very deeply about, and this only the surface! I see much more value in my life with God than without all things before God.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
if we're not careful we may be banned from ATS for the overuse of sarcasm.

Is that possible? Aight, I could probably be kicked for that.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i called a person a sheep, and you said 'better a sheep than a stubborn goat', which implies you're calling me a stubborn goat. you even went to the trouble of finding a nice adjective to go before goat.

Yeah. I was rough on ya. Sorry 'bout that. Friends?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
no it's funny in the movie. when you do it, it just seems pathetic.

Hmm....my spouse says the same thing. Friends and I get a giggle over it though.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i'm saying i didn't call you mentally ill, even though you assumed i did and went off on one about how 'someone is calling you mentally ill again'.

Thank you for that.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and i don't see any double standards.

Okay, let me re-position. How many times have I talked down about your beliefs?

Originally posted by saint4God
Shauny, I don't believe you're a stubbord old goat. I don't believe you're a goat either. It was a tongue-in-cheek remark to the sheep comment. The difference is you were serious in calling me a sheep and I was kidding. I apologize if I took the joke too far.

so you can 'joke' around and call people names...that's o.k? so i could joke around with a gay guy and call him a fag...it doesn't matter because i'm joking, right? i call you a sheep because you follow jesus, by definition and by your own admission a person who followed jesus in the bible was also known as a sheep. this is probably where the concept of a follower is called a sheep, hence i'm calling you a follower...just using a different word.

Alright alright, sorry again for not being serious. *clears throat* To answer your question, I don't feel repressed. I feel free. I do think there are unjustified and sometimes coordinated attacks upon those who label themselves Christian. I've labeled myself that in my username to spurr questions and discussion. So, I have painted a target on myself, but to do anything else is to deny who I am.

you do like to proclaim in your name that you're a 'saintforgod'. just like another member likes to proclaim he is an 'evolutioncruncher' as that is his name. you don't see me making a username under 'jesushater'.

Unfortunately the 'teacher' in our analogy is God, and yes, he would send a person 'to detention' but it's not as harmless as we think.

so why do you follow the rules even though you don't like them? is it that heaven is too good a prize to let go of, and you'll put up with anything to get there.

I live a remarkably happy life. I have all I need and many things I want. I'm very active in Kung-Fu, theatre, have a job I enjoy and a family I care very deeply about, and this only the surface! I see much more value in my life with God than without all things before God.

all the things you named before god, funny you named them 'before' god. believe it or not your life would be fine without god. everything you named above before the god part is what 'this is all about'.

Yeah. I was rough on ya. Sorry 'bout that. Friends?

i'm not worried, i was just pointing out the fact that you like to use names to, even though you said you didn't. what's worse is that you were joking, like i said above...maybe it would be funny according to you to call gay people faggots?

Okay, let me re-position. How many times have I talked down about your beliefs?

maybe that's because you don't know my beliefs, or i dont really have 100% beliefs. i think evolution is a much more plausable theory than creation, but it doesn't mean it's set in concrete; your belief on the other hand seems very much so.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so you can 'joke' around and call people names...that's o.k?

We've been talking for a long time. I guess I was too friendly pokin' at ya like that.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so i could joke around with a gay guy and call him a fag...it doesn't matter because i'm joking, right?

Um, huh?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i call you a sheep because you follow jesus, by definition and by your own admission a person who followed jesus in the bible was also known as a sheep. this is probably where the concept of a follower is called a sheep, hence i'm calling you a follower...just using a different word.

Tell me you mean no negative connotation nor feeling to calling a person 'sheep'.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you do like to proclaim in your name that you're a 'saintforgod'. just like another member likes to proclaim he is an 'evolutioncruncher' as that is his name. you don't see me making a username under 'jesushater'.

How does saint4God have any implication of hate or crunching? It's my job description.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so why do you follow the rules even though you don't like them? is it that heaven is too good a prize to let go of, and you'll put up with anything to get there.

Heaven is a nice place.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
all the things you named before god, funny you named them 'before' god. believe it or not your life would be fine without god. everything you named above before the god part is what 'this is all about'.

I would not be in any of those things without God. I'd be dead. I was suicidal. I was looking into joining a cult that enjoyed self mutiliation and "pushing the envelope" by walking into fire, bloodletting and various other practices.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i'm not worried, i was just pointing out the fact that you like to use names to, even though you said you didn't. what's worse is that you were joking, like i said above...maybe it would be funny according to you to call gay people faggots?

You said more than "sheep", you've said that we Christains don't think on our own, along with a long list of things in our discourses that's too much to bear on one page.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
maybe that's because you don't know my beliefs, or i dont really have 100% beliefs. i think evolution is a much more plausable theory than creation, but it doesn't mean it's set in concrete;

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There are many Christian evolutions who see no conflict with God and evolution even moreso.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
your belief on the other hand seems very much so.

I don't know how God created the universe, through evolution, intelligent design, or whatever we haven't come up with yet. To me it doesn't make a difference other than to say the university wasn't as "open-minded" as they claimed to be.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so i could joke around with a gay guy and call him a fag...it doesn't matter because i'm joking, right?

Um, huh?

well you were just 'messing' or 'joking' around calling me a goat or stubborn goat, like it was o.k if you call people names just so long as you're joking.

Tell me you mean no negative connotation nor feeling to calling a person 'sheep'.

it's another word for follower. infact part of the definition is ''one easily led or influenced''. I could have just used the word 'follower' but i thought sheep was more infitting with the biblical theme.

How does saint4God have any implication of hate or crunching? It's my job description.

the same as when you end your posts you put 'god bless'. you wouldn't like it if a devil worshiper wrote 'satan blesses you all' at the end of his posts. but christians like yourself seem to insist on blessing us with god, proclaiming they are 'saints for god' or that they are 'evolution crunchers'. what's the point in a person even being called evolution cruncher, they've already made up their mind, so there would be no point in arguing.

Heaven is a nice place.

and you know this, how...

I would not be in any of those things without God. I'd be dead. I was suicidal. I was looking into joining a cult that enjoyed self mutiliation and "pushing the envelope" by walking into fire, bloodletting and various other practices.

and when you walked in to the church it took you 45 minutes to realise when you were standing up at the front with a knife to your wrists that you weren't at the cult place, you had gone in to the wrong building. then you thought to yourself 'you know, i thought it was a bit quiet for a self multilating cult'.

You said more than "sheep", you've said that we Christains don't think on our own, along with a long list of things in our discourses that's too much to bear on one page.

well the general theme of sheep, is that they are easily led and influenced. i can't help it if christians come across that way.

Well.... I am only here two days and it seems I missed something that set you two off......

I think the word 'sheep' set it off. Maybe I was just looking for an arguement and the only way I could find one was to offend someone. To me 'sheep' isn't at all a bad word, just means you're a follower. For a religion that sings about god being their shepard, and have a book describing jesus' followers as sheep, it's pretty hard to get away from the connotations of farm yard animals.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well you were just 'messing' or 'joking' around calling me a goat or stubborn goat, like it was o.k if you call people names just so long as you're joking.

Gotcha, noted for future. Sorry again if I offended, didn't mean to cause any hard feelings.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's another word for follower. infact part of the definition is ''one easily led or influenced''.

Yeah, that's what I thought, hence my "stubborn" comment. Hence what I mean by double-standard. But I've apologized, let's bury this hatchet and move on, yes?

Originally posted by shaunybaby

How does saint4God have any implication of hate or crunching? It's my job description.

the same as when you end your posts you put 'god bless'. you wouldn't like it if a devil worshiper wrote 'satan blesses you all' at the end of his posts.

I have friends who say "Goddess Bless". I don't get up-in-arms about that and am glad someone is wishing me well. I've never heard anyone say "Satan bless" because they're contradictory if they knew their master well. "Good luck" is ancient celtic religion and people say it to me all the time. I don't say "DON'T WISH ME LUCK, I DON'T BELIEVE IN LUCK!" but to each his/her own I guess.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but christians like yourself seem to insist on blessing us with god, proclaiming they are 'saints for god'

As I said, it's my job. If I'm doing constuction on the street everyone drives on, it may be an irritation at the moment, but I'm looking to help in the long run.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
or that they are 'evolution crunchers'. what's the point in a person even being called evolution cruncher, they've already made up their mind, so there would be no point in arguing.

People change. I change. I think most people would be surprised how much I've changed within the last 2 years.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and you know this, how...

I've been given a small slice.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and when you walked in to the church it took you 45 minutes to realise when you were standing up at the front with a knife to your wrists that you weren't at the cult place, you had gone in to the wrong building. then you thought to yourself 'you know, i thought it was a bit quiet for a self multilating cult'.

I do wish it were that easy. I really do.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well the general theme of sheep, is that they are easily led and influenced. i can't help it if christians come across that way.

Well, hopefully I can help change that misconception.

Originally posted by saint4God
Gotcha, noted for future. Sorry again if I offended, didn't mean to cause any hard feelings.

no offence taken, nor do you need to appologise, and i didn't care what you called me. i was mainly just pointing out that you seem to think it's o.k to call people names so long as you're just joking, but when someone calls you a name you don't like it. that's double standards.

I have friends who say "Goddess Bless". I don't get up-in-arms about that and am glad someone is wishing me well. I've never heard anyone say "Satan bless" because they're contradictory if they knew their master well. "Good luck" is ancient celtic religion and people say it to me all the time. I don't say "DON'T WISH ME LUCK, I DON'T BELIEVE IN LUCK!" but to each his/her own I guess.

what's the point in wishing someone good luck anyways? like you wishing someone good luck is somehow going to bring them good luck? it's like saying, 'have a good flight'. what does that mean...make sure the pilot doesn't crash?

As I said, it's my job. If I'm doing constuction on the street everyone drives on, it may be an irritation at the moment, but I'm looking to help in the long run.

it's wierd that christians feels the need to preach to everyone about this so-called truth, i've seen many on the street, yet you never see anyone preaching on the street about evolution...

I've been given a small slice.

you said heaven's a nice place. i would like to know how you know. as far as we're all concerned, no one has experienced heaven and told the tale, therefore you can't say what heaven is like. why do you insist on saying heaven is nice, when you don't know what heaven is like?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
that's double standards.

I did call a name as a result of being called a name, but it was more a "turn-about is fair play" illustration than any feelings or malice behind it. Glad your not negatively impacted.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
what's the point in wishing someone good luck anyways? like you wishing someone good luck is somehow going to bring them good luck?

That's how it works in that celtic religion. "Knock on wood" is a very similar concept, but I'm not here to defend it.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's like saying, 'have a good flight'. what does that mean...make sure the pilot doesn't crash?

Hmmm. "I wish you well!" doesn't change the outcome of events from my perspective, but it does make the person you well feel supported and loved. A traditional religious celt may say it changes the outcome, but I wouldn't know.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's wierd that christians feels the need to preach to everyone about this so-called truth, i've seen many on the street, yet you never see anyone preaching on the street about evolution...

Hehe, no, they preach about other things. I did receive my Baghavad Gita from street-Hare Krishna's, but I'm not sure I want to go in an "oh yeah! well..." type of argument. Our name-calling exchange has already proven that fruitless. I don't think barking at people, telling them they're going to Hell is effective. The street preacher may say otherwise, I don't know. Not the job I've been called to thankfully.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you said heaven's a nice place. i would like to know how you know.

Really?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
as far as we're all concerned, no one has experienced heaven and told the tale, therefore you can't say what heaven is like.

Ah, so you can negate what I can say. Oh well.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
why do you insist on saying heaven is nice, when you don't know what heaven is like?

The word is "like" not "is". I know what heaven is "like", I'm not saying I paid a physical visit. If I did, I sure wouldn't be here I kid, love y'all. If I was told I could go back pick up some people, I'd enthusiastically accept the mission. A big part of the joy is in the sharing.

Jesus preached - he broke bread - with tax collectors, prostitutes, thieves. These people commited grievous sins on a regular basis, but Christ continued His ministry. Why? Because while Christ had no tolerance for pretension and sin, He also kept His hand open to those people so that they would know that He wanted to love them, He wanted to take their hand and heal them of the afflictions of their spirits. It's no wonder that the first Saint was a thief, brigand, and murderer. Dimas - despite his wretched life - repented and was forgiven.

”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5
“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words shalt thou be condemned.” Matthew 12:36,37
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach...Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” Matthew 23:2-3,13, NIV

It's not for us to judge our brothers and sister, despite how much we deplore their behavior. How can we bring anyone to the Truth if we turn them away at every opportunity? Let us recall the parable of the prodigal son... Luke 15: 10 -32

In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
11
Then he said, "A man had two sons,
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and the younger son said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of your estate that should come to me.' So the father divided the property between them.
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After a few days, the younger son collected all his belongings and set off to a distant country where he squandered his inheritance on a life of dissipation.
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When he had freely spent everything, a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need.
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So he hired himself out to one of the local citizens who sent him to his farm to tend the swine.
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And he longed to eat his fill of the pods on which the swine fed, but nobody gave him any.
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Coming to his senses he thought, 'How many of my father's hired workers have more than enough food to eat, but here am I, dying from hunger.
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I shall get up and go to my father and I shall say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
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I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers."'
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So he got up and went back to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him.
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His son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.'
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But his father ordered his servants, 'Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.
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Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast,
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because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.' Then the celebration began.
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Now the older son had been out in the field and, on his way back, as he neared the house, he heard the sound of music and dancing.
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He called one of the servants and asked what this might mean.
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The servant said to him, 'Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'
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He became angry, and when he refused to enter the house, his father came out and pleaded with him.
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He said to his father in reply, 'Look, all these years I served you and not once did I disobey your orders; yet you never gave me even a young goat to feast on with my friends.
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But when your son returns who swallowed up your property with prostitutes, for him you slaughter the fattened calf.'
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He said to him, 'My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours.
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But now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.'"


I am a lifelong Catholic who seriously considered the priesthood. I've been involved in prison ministries, homeless shelters, and working with the 'undesirables.' I certainly don't approve of many of the choices they have made, but it's not my place to judge them. It is my most fervent prayer that Christ may use me as His vessal, that through His grace, I might help someone who is wrapped in sin, misery, and pain to open their eyes and see clearly again. Please don't forget that they are God's children too. If He - through His Son - has promised that the most wretched person can be redeemed, who are we to say otherwise.

Too many Christians use their faith as a club; they tout their 'holiness' because they go to church, they pay their tithes, they are seen sitting in the front pews. Big freaking deal. A Christian seeks those in need. If it was good enough for the Word Made Flesh, it should be good enough for you. I think that some of the Anti-Christian sentiments are because of this attitude.

I also believe that it is trendy to 'buck the system'. God asks too much of His followers, so let's worship this, that, or nothing at all. I also think that church is considered to be an obligation. I find going to Mass to be the highlight of my day and I try to go as often as I can. The peace, the feeling of community, the love that I feel in church is something that has brought me so much joy.

What can we do to correct this persecution? Be more like Christ. Embrace those who are snared by sin and sorrow, be a beacon of God's healing light for those who wander in the darkness.

Thank you to those who have stayed with me this far.

Originally posted by shantyman
A Christian seeks those in need.

Too bad all the KJV inerrantist nutjobs out there don't see things this way. I'll take a dozen Catholics trying to work their way into heaven over one "once saved always saved" inerrantist jerk anyday.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by shantyman
A Christian seeks those in need.

Too bad all the KJV inerrantist nutjobs out there don't see things this way. I'll take a dozen Catholics trying to work their way into heaven over one "once saved always saved" inerrantist jerk anyday.

I agree. The problem I have with the whols saved and go to heaven thing is that it was created to scare people into wanting to go to heaven. I for one don't want to end up in a place like hell. I honestly don't know if there is a heaven and hell. I have tried to say that I believed both sides, but I don't know. I think part of it is that I don't want there to be a hell because some things are unforgiveable. I still try to do the right thing because I believe that its the only way any civilization, or group of people for that matter, can live together and of course, its the right thing to do.


It is unfortunate that what usually starts as a harmless conversation usually erupts into a war of words and ideals as demonstrated in the last page and a half of posts. No offence to either of you, it just happens that way. Religion is too near and dear to peoples hearts.

Originally posted by Donegal

The problem I have with the whols saved and go to heaven thing is that it was created to scare people into wanting to go to heaven. I for one don't want to end up in a place like hell. I honestly don't know if there is a heaven and hell. I have tried to say that I believed both sides, but I don't know. I think part of it is that I don't want there to be a hell because some things are unforgiveable. I still try to do the right thing

I've heard that excuse over and over and over about it's a scare tactic. God tells us about the 2 eternities because there are 2 eternal destinies where people will spend eterntiy.

You don't want to end up in hell, that is good because I sense you understand that this life is not the end of existence. God forgives all sins. If you try to do the right thing that is also good because it shows that you know there is a right and wrong, but doing what's right doesn't earn salvation, because each has already done some wrong things that need Jesus' forgiveness for.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Donegal

The problem I have with the whols saved and go to heaven thing is that it was created to scare people into wanting to go to heaven. I for one don't want to end up in a place like hell. I honestly don't know if there is a heaven and hell. I have tried to say that I believed both sides, but I don't know. I think part of it is that I don't want there to be a hell because some things are unforgiveable. I still try to do the right thing

I've heard that excuse over and over and over about it's a scare tactic. God tells us about the 2 eternities because there are 2 eternal destinies where people will spend eterntiy.

You don't want to end up in hell, that is good because I sense you understand that this life is not the end of existence. God forgives all sins. If you try to do the right thing that is also good because it shows that you know there is a right and wrong, but doing what's right doesn't earn salvation, because each has already done some wrong things that need Jesus' forgiveness for.

I've spoken about a concept of Hell that is embraced by many - myself included.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Some religions trot out foolishness about the 'Elect' and other foolishness. To have the audacity to say - "Sorry, I don't care how good a person you are, you're bound for Hell." is an abomination. Equally offensive are those who tout their religion as the only path to salvation. When I encounter those people - and if I had a nickel for every time someone denigrated me for my faith, I would be a wealthy man indeed. My advice for Christians - or believers anywhere - is to make good choices, live a good life, and treat every day as if it is your last.

Finally, it is the nature of God to forgive - Christ time and time again told parables about the loving nature of God. It is when Christians - and others - forget this that thre is trouble. And, unfortunately, this is far to often the case.

Hey Donegal,

Text It is unfortunate that what usually starts as a harmless conversation usually erupts into a war of words and ideals as demonstrated in the last page and a half of posts

You are right, religion cuts a little too close to the bone for everyone at some level of discussion and it is the reason I didn't respond to your earlier general question for debate. It isn't out of disrespect for anyone on this board. It is because I have been pretty much a "seeker" for much of my life, and have already been through a lot of internal questioning on the stuff which generally gets raised by people who don't believe the way I do. I am generally at peace with what I believe, and things seem to degenerate pretty quickly on these issues at times.

However; that is not to say that I don't still have a lot of questions of my own, and those I do like to discuss, but I'm sure it is the topic for another board.

My original post was really aimed at what I do believe is a very broadly defined "conspiracy", of sorts, by certain religious elements in America
who wish to gain through political ends that which they could not gain by persuasion.

I'm certainly not the first to comment on this, it's one of the major topics of discussion in our country right now: the amount of political influence which has been gained by certain elements of conservative evangelicalism.

This debate is fundamental to America's beginings, from Colonial days to the Present day, and it has almost always had some form of "conspiratorial" element assigned to it:

1. The English Government wants to destroy our rights by creating a "Bishopric" for our colonies (the Anglican argument).

2. The English Government wants to destroy our rights by sicking the Anglicans on us (the Puritan argument).

3. The Anglicans and the Puritans are out to get us, so we better start our own colony (the Quaker's argument).

4. The Catholics are out to destroy our rights by: setting the "Jesuits" "the Priesthood" or, maybe, the Masonic Order; take your pick. Perhaps they would be more "comfortable" in their own colony (all of the above mentioned denominations argument).

5. "Secular Humanists are out to destroy our rights by taking prayer out of school, trying to take "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegience, not allowing us to post Old Testament Law in government buildings, fighting us on the issue of ID in schools, etc, etc. (the "Focus on the Family" argument)

6. The Radical/Conservative wing of Evangelicalism want's to destroy our rights, by doing all those things mentioned in #5, plus more. And they want the conservative Catholics and Jews to help them, too. ( a lot of people who think differently from the groups mentioned in this point's argument).


So, even being a Christian (as I understand the term, and I am pretty familiar with the Bible)) I guess I come down on Jefferson's and Madison's side; both men wanted to make the Constitutioneven more explicit than it was on their belief in the infinite distance which should seperate Church from State.

The "conspiracy" which I, and many others, believe exists is by "religious folk" who are attempting to gain victory through political influence for the argument which failed to prevail at the Constitutional debates: what is the proper role of religion in society?

Should people be compelled to acknowledge religion as a necessary basis for a stable society? And in this country that appears to mean the "Judeo-Christian" (whatever that means) religion...and specific forms of that.

I simply share the belief, with many others, that this abrogates the spirit of the Constitution (as well as the Declaration of Independence, for that matter), and is a bad idea, generally, and for pretty much the same reasons as the Founders and churchgoers whose arguments won the day.

Nothing original to me in any of this.

I also hold to the commisssion of Paul, that one should always be ready to give an explanation for the hope that one has. To me this has a more quiet tone about it, whose aim is not contention but understanding. Not knowing your feelings or approach to matters, I just wasn't ready to put myself into one of the "debates" which seem to provide so much heat, but so little light on some of these issues.

So, I judged you without knowing you...and I do apologize for that.

Originally posted by spamandham
Too bad all the KJV inerrantist nutjobs out there don't see things this way. I'll take a dozen Catholics trying to work their way into heaven over one "once saved always saved" inerrantist jerk anyday.

I'm not a KJV nutjob, but think there is some vital information to point out:

Heaven is a free gift. I know quoting is really unpopular around here but it's the best proof. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23

It is not earned or deserved. "For it is by grace you have been saved, though faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast" - Ephesians 2:8-9

Originally posted by saint4God
Heaven is a free gift.
...
It is not earned or deserved.

For those of us who view the Bible as just another book, all that matters is the behavior of believers and not whether what they believe is 'true'.

From that perspective, those who think works play an important role (or perhaps even the only role) tend to be better citizens than someone who thinks works are secondary to faith. The latter tend to stand around on soapboxes yelling at people and otherwise being obnoxious, while the former tend to man soup kitchens and volunteer for the Red Cross.

I didn't say works are useless. They're just not the deciding factor on salvation.

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" - James 2:17, which means it doesn't go anywhere. As you say spamandham, just standing on a soapbox. If standing on the soapbox gets someone to listen though, it then becomes a work . It's interesting how intimately intertwined and well they work together when Christian understands this.

For more details, check out: Faith Without Works


[edit on 24-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I didn't say works are useless. They're just not the deciding factor on salvation.

Unless of course, they are. The Catholic church considers itself the ultimate authority, not the Bible.

(to be fair, salvation by works is not part of the Catholic faith, but a lot of Catholic laymen seem to think it is)


[edit on 24-10-2005 by spamandham]

Hey Saint4God,

I haven't posted enough to be able to reply to your u2u, but the answer is "Yes" and no, I don't mind you asking How about you?

The mods may doc me points for this, but I didn't want to leave your question unanswered.