The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by undo
That's the point. At one time, it couldn't be proven with science, and was therefore ruled as impossible.

well it was actually religious intolerance and ignorance that once ruled the land. if a person of science were to say something like, 'we're not the center of the solar system/universe' they'd be condemned. so at that point, the religious people ruled certain things as impossible too.

Why should it be when you can no more prove your belief system to me, than I can prove mine to you?

my belief system is what it is... 'reality'. for my beliefs we can study animals for evolution, we can dig up fossils and study more. with the bible all you ever have is... the bible. nothing more, nothing less. not much of a 'journey'.

You realize, of course, that your belief system works on the exact same principles and psychological foundations, as anyone elses?

except my beliefs can change and alter, as my beliefs are based on scientific theory, on ever changing and ever more understanding notions. that's more of a journey...it's a journey of knowledge.

Okay, and what are the boundaries of scientific theory? And according to who? The Popes of Science? The Holy and Righteous Order of the Atheists International? Their word is law? Only they know the truth and not just some of the truth but ALL of the truth as regards life, the universe and everything? You seeing any similarities to other such mindsets in these phrases? If you don't, then we have nothing further to discuss, because you're in the denial stage and you're the only one that can change that perspective.

Originally posted by undo
Okay, and what are the boundaries of scientific theory? And according to who? The Popes of Science? The Holy and Righteous Order of the Atheists International? Their word is law? Only they know the truth and not just some of the truth but ALL of the truth as regards life, the universe and everything? You seeing any similarities to other such mindsets in these phrases? If you don't, then we have nothing further to discuss, because you're in the denial stage and you're the only one that can change that perspective.

Science doesn't claim to have all the answers.

There are no boundaries to scientific theory...the boundaries are however far a person's imagination can stretch.

Originally posted by shaunybaby


Science doesn't claim to have all the answers.

There are no boundaries to scientific theory...the boundaries are however far a person's imagination can stretch.

Are you claiming, on the basis of science, that you have all the facts are regards God and the SUPERnatural, yes or no? Are you claiming, on the basis of A science, that you have the facts as regards the mindsets and psychology of christians, yes or no? And if the answer is no, then why would you be here, in this thread, telling me and the other christians who read this, that they are weak-minded thumbsuckers (paraphrasing but intent is the same)? What are you basing your science on? Personal observation? Have you applied the good empirical process in your theory? Have you taken a good cross section of christians you personally know, and researched them and their belief systems inside and out? Have you walked a mile in any of their shoes? Have you attempted to see it from their perspectives? Just how scientific if your belief that christians are inherently weak-minded and in need of a crutch?

Okay, if there are no boundaries to science, then I have the freedom to theorize that God, Jesus and the events in the bible are explainable with science. What makes my faith and theory, any less viable than Schrodinger's Cat? If I don't believe the Cat is in the box, I can no longer work on the theory of quantum light particles because the Cat in the box belief is necessary in order to continue to the next step.

Originally posted by undo
Are you claiming, on the basis of science, that you have all the facts are regards God and the SUPERnatural, yes or no?

No, did I ever claim that though?

Are you claiming, on the basis of A science, that you have the facts as regards the mindsets and psychology of christians, yes or no?

No, but I know the mindset of personal friends. They're easily duped in to many things, they're also very quick to take something as pure truth, and they are very weakminded...which also seems to be the general theme for the rest of their church.

What are you basing your science on? Personal observation?

I am indeed.

Okay, if there are no boundaries to science, then I have the freedom to theorize that God, Jesus and the events in the bible are explainable with science.

They can never be a 'science' because they cannot be studied in the same sense as something like evolution. If it could be studied by science...it would be, but it's not.

Okay, if you can't study it appropriately, your conclusions may not be accurate or scientific. You are therefore, basing your decisions on personal opinion and judgement that is missing many facts. How is this different than the Cat in the box or faith in what one cannot see but still believe, in because the available evidence points to it?

Also, I have personally observed something that I think is relevant to this discussion. If I believe only in myself rather than in myself and a power higher than myself, how is my "Crutch" changed from being a "Crutch" to not being a "Crutch"? The following criteria are still present:

1. It's a belief.
2. It's a belief based on observation (I believe, therefore I am)
3. I can and do have faith in it.
4. That Cat is still in the box! He ain't going nowhere, so I'm still having faith in the unseen.

Originally posted by undo
Okay, if you can't study it appropriately, your conclusions may not be accurate or scientific. You are therefore, basing your decisions on personal opinion and judgement that is missing many facts.

but i'm not basing it on god or the supernatural. i'm basing it on the people.

perhaps the most logical approach to god:

-Epicurus was a Greek philosopher and he posed the question: do the gods exist?

-Remember he predates Christianity by nearly a 1000 years.


Theorem - God does not exist.


-Proof

-Consider the notion of an omnipotent and benign God and his willingness to eliminate 'evil'

Either:

(i) He is willing, but unable – therefore He is not omnipotent;

(ii) He is able, but unwilling – therefore He is malevolent;

(iii) He is able and willing – whence comes Evil?

(iv) He is neither able nor willing – then why call Him God?

(Epicurus 341 B.C. – 271 B.C.)

Originally posted by shaunybaby


Either:

(i) He is willing, but unable – therefore He is not omnipotent;

(ii) He is able, but unwilling – therefore He is malevolent;

(iii) He is able and willing – whence comes Evil?

(iv) He is neither able nor willing

(v) He is willing, but gave us free wills.

(vi) He is also unwilling in that He will not violate our free wills.

(vii) He is able, but gave us free wills.

(viii) He is also unable in that He set rules for Himself as regards our free wills.

Think of how the physical universe is designed. The laws of nature dictate circumstances that when violated, have specific effects, oftentimes detrimental. This is because there is order in the chaos, an order that must be respected. Without respect for the order, the chaos consumes you. Yet, your freedom to violate the order exists (it's just not recommended).

The Old Testament was a book about survival in the physical universe, about the order of things, and how best to go about living in that order so the chaos didn't consume them. We are all at various stages of realizing that, some more successfully than others, and some are highly specialized. For example, a buddhist might be highly specialized at avoiding the chaos in fatty foods, whereas a christian might be highly specialized at avoiding the chaos in alcohol. (these are not fast and hard rules, just examples). An atheist might be highly specialized at avoiding the chaos in other things. Over it all, there is order that can't be violated without problems. That is the basic overall message of the entire Old Testament of the bible.

So the Designer says, "Look, I built this following specific rules of order and choas. I specifically provided order so that the chaos would not consume you. I provided chaos, so you could exercise your free will to not choose order. Here are my rules for how to avoid the chaos. Respect the order. You have the free will to violate these rules, but remember violation will often result in chaos because that is how the universe is ordered. Free will comes with a decison making process to choose either chaos or order. "



.

Originally posted by undo
(v) He is willing, but gave us free wills.

(vi) He is also unwilling in that He will not violate our free wills.

(vii) He is able, but gave us free wills.

(viii) He is also unable in that He set rules for Himself as regards our free wills.

Our free will wasn't up for questioning... God was.

I provided chaos, so you could exercise your free will to not choose order.

Some things we can't control though; we have no will, whether it be free or not, to change certain things. So in some cases we don't get to 'choose' chaos, as it chooses us and it's inevitable.

Undo, thanks for your input. Your last post, in answering a 'simple' question with more respect than it deserved, reminded me of the imbalance with which both arguments are presented in the media.

eg; the Anti-Christians - 1 +1 = 2 = maths and science = proof of evolution,
the Christians - 1(infinity) + 1(infinity) = God,
the Anti Christians - They can't prove their "Big" maths and science 'stays' maths and science, so they can't play the, "Have we got 'News' for you!" game, and anyway, they're on the wrong team, this is a game for one team, the right team, our team, they're on the 'Kook's' team, anybody not on our team is a 'kook', would you listen to a 'kook', would you print the opinion of a 'kook' without also warning the readers this is the opinion of a 'kook'.... and so 'their' rant goes on, but with the help of the whore, 'Media', it's whispered too seductively to be recognized as the desperate chant it is, and is 'sold' as commonly repeated, common sence.

Originally posted by jake1997

Why are so many people soo anti christian?

....1. Because "beliefs" and behavior diverge, and the effects of behavior of so-called Christians are harmful in some respects. So, they get outraged.

This is what I see. I see threads about many different subjects. Hundreds of subjects. In politics things get heated. On sports teams things get heated.
But when it comes to christianity.... I see hatred, dripping wet with venom. Why? This is not a 'hate christ' forum. Christianity is not the largest religion, nor does it have the worst human rights record in the media...it has nothing that should put it at the top of your hate list.

....2. People who "hate" may be simply outraged. They may also be feeling effects of hypocrisy, corruption or degradation of their own lives. It's hard to tell, right off the bat, where "hate" is coming from.

1.) Why do so many here feel the need to continually make topics bashing the beliefs of christians....when the topic is clearly not conspiracy related??

....3. I have to admit, being an Episcopalean myself, it's kind of comical. Christians have all these "beliefs" about being nice; THEN, they support eco-bashing, predatory economics and war-profiteering as if Jesus would have supported those elements of society, also.

2.) Why do people feel the need to bust in on a topic and hijack/change it by attacking a person or their beliefs, posting the christian POV on that topic?
(look at seapeoples post history for an example)

....4. That's a strategy. That's a diversionary tactic. That's a manipulative ploy. It's also quite immature.

3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

....5. The goal of the New World Order is -- simply put -- to consolidate all religious practice into ONE Unitarian/Universalist set of role-models wherein NO dissent nor unequal/divergent concepts may intrude. Yes. There is at least one such agenda operating in the world. The Master of the New World Order, George Herbert Walker Bush, seems to prefer the Moonies as his choice and form of "acceptable Christian dogma." Also, the Rockefeller Foundations have utilized Baptist and other "Christian" ministries to propagate Universalist, non-Covenantal, non-ethical Christian religion based on Apocalyptic prophecies. Want a link?

It should be THAT obvious. How can you miss it?

....6. Of course it's obvious. It's just, few people know precisely which directions the threats are coming from : from WITHIN the Christian Church.

[edit on 12-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Some things we can't control though; we have no will, whether it be free or not, to change certain things. So in some cases we don't get to 'choose' chaos, as it chooses us and it's inevitable.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. It's partially true and partially false. This is a testing ground. During the course of your life, you will have many opportunities to make decisions regarding chaos or order. Part of the order, however, stipulates that your test is timed. It's what you do with that time, that the bible provides counsel for with suggestions, recommendations and laws. If we learn about and understand the order, our ability to exist within it becomes more finely tuned. Both science and religion are attempting to do just that: learn about the order and how to happily exist within it.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Undo, thanks for your input. Your last post, in answering a 'simple' question with more respect than it deserved, reminded me of the imbalance with which both arguments are presented in the media.

eg; the Anti-Christians - 1 +1 = 2 = maths and science = proof of evolution,
the Christians - 1(infinity) + 1(infinity) = God,
the Anti Christians - They can't prove their "Big" maths and science 'stays' maths and science, so they can't play the, "Have we got 'News' for you!" game, and anyway, they're on the wrong team, this is a game for one team, the right team, our team, they're on the 'Kook's' team, anybody not on our team is a 'kook', would you listen to a 'kook', would you print the opinion of a 'kook' without also warning the readers this is the opinion of a 'kook'.... and so 'their' rant goes on, but with the help of the whore, 'Media', it's whispered too seductively to be recognized as the desperate chant it is, and is 'sold' as commonly repeated, common sence.

Interesting. It reminds me of a song by "Steve Taylor":

When the godless chair the judgment seat
we can thank the godless media elite
they can silence those who fall from their grace
with a note that says "we haven't the space"
well lookee there--the dog's asleep
whenever we march or say a peep
A Christian can't get equal time
Unless he's a looney committing a crime

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I've heard of Karl Marx, never read his book though. Nice to know my ideologies are similar to his though. Always nice to be compared to someone.

He had a few good ideas, though on the whole, you have to wonder about statements he made...like those. Between him and Plato, one gets the impression that "Philosophers should rule the world"...which is great if you want everyone to walk around confused all the time. It's riding the waves of what's mentally-trendy, like a head game fashion show. Doesn't help much for truth seekers.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Perhaps if people came up with something better than 'I was bullied at work = anti-christianity'. Then go on to tell us that other christians from other denominations actually then started harassing them... who are the 'real' anti-christians... sounds to me like it's 'christians'.

Um. Alread wrote on this thread who was meeting secretly, why, how, their calendar, symbols of recognition, etc...and none of it had anything to do with work. The only response I got was something to the effect of, "well okay, maybe there are a few wackos in the world."

[edit on 27-3-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
He had a few good ideas, though on the whole, you have to wonder about statements he made...like those. Between him and Plato, one gets the impression that "Philosophers should rule the world"...which is great if you want everyone to walk around confused all the time. It's riding the waves of what's mentally-trendy, like a head game fashion show. Doesn't help much for truth seekers.

''Opium of the masses''... remembered hearing that a few times. Much like my updated version ''Christians need God like an addict needs heroin. You can't physically function without your fix''.

Um. Alread wrote on this thread who was meeting secretly, why, how, their calendar, symbols of recognition, etc...and none of it had anything to do with work. The only response I got was something to the effect of, "well okay, maybe there are a few wackos in the world."

Yeah I re-call someone else posting lots of company symbols and their logos. I debunked a good number of them all, merely company letters etc...didn't really hear from that guy after that.

It's true there's anti-christian people, I mean you could probably find atleast one example of a person hating almost any subject. However, whether or not there are interconnected groups, that are trying to bring down Christianity, if you say you've posted proof of that...I've not yet seen it

I mean we keep hearing cases of people attributing bullying at work to anti-christianity, but we're not here discussing personal clashes with work mates. I'm sure the question at hand would be 'Is there a world wide conspiracy, perhaps in-sync with the NWO, that's aim is to bring down Christianity'... if that had been answered to date, we would not still be here discussing it. We would maybe also 'see' the downfall of Christianity, yet there's no downfall. There's no downfall because there's no conspiracy.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
''Opium of the masses''... remembered hearing that a few times. Much like my updated version ''Christians need God like an addict needs heroin. You can't physically function without your fix''.

Well done! That was the connection I was meaning, yes.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah I re-call someone else posting lots of company symbols and their logos. I debunked a good number of them all, merely company letters etc...didn't really hear from that guy after that.

Not companies, that wasn't me. And agree that most companies use whatever the ad companies feel is "eye-catching". Some have phone polls and surveys to call and ask the general public.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
It's true there's anti-christian people, I mean you could probably find atleast one example of a person hating almost any subject. However, whether or not there are interconnected groups, that are trying to bring down Christianity, if you say you've posted proof of that...I've not yet seen it

And that I've posted 3 times.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I mean we keep hearing cases of people attributing bullying at work to anti-christianity, but we're not here discussing personal clashes with work mates. I'm sure the question at hand would be 'Is there a world wide conspiracy, perhaps in-sync with the NWO, that's aim is to bring down Christianity'... if that had been answered to date, we would not still be here discussing it.

Not so, we are discussing it. I know of a national conspiracy, though cannot prove a world-wide one.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
We would maybe also 'see' the downfall of Christianity, yet there's no downfall. There's no downfall because there's no conspiracy.

The assumption here is that Christianity is so weak that if there was even one conspiracy, it would collapse...which is just plain silly.

[edit on 27-3-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Well done! That was the connection I was meaning, yes.

Not so, we are discussing it. I know of a national conspiracy, though cannot prove a world-wide one.

What use is that to me... I'm in England. I don't ''see'' what's going on in America. I can read about it, but you're not going to get all your information from reading.

Sure there's a lot of Christians in American, but it's hardly the heart of Christianity. I could understand why there would be a lot of hatred towards Christians in American though. Some of the time things are over the top, you have those televangelists, healing rallies etc, which we don't get here. You also have groups trying to push ID in to the school teaching system, and if that doesn't work they teach it to kids at sunday school or summer schools specially set up.

We just don't have that in England.

The assumption here is that Christianity is so weak that if there was even one conspiracy, it would collapse...which is just plain silly.

No, but you'd expect to see some sort of rift, or effect on Christianity?

If I asked my friend 'do you think there's an anti-Christian conspiracy' I'd almost certainly get the answer no. Maybe you should move to England?

mod edit- to remove content, If you cant say something Grown up then please refrain from posting

[edit on 27-3-2006 by asala]

hehe no. I got myself a rather attractive girlfriend, haven't gone all the way but hey...take things slow


and this would have to do with this because...

(edit - tutut warning hey. why's everyone anti-shaunybaby)

There's been a few people who have gone off at me and recieved warnings. I think I may have to start an anti-shaunybaby thread.

[edit on 27-3-2006 by shaunybaby]

Is there an easier way to get to the end of this thread than 33 clicks?