Why the sacrifice had to occur

a reply to: whereislogic

(Isaiah 65:17) "¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

To put it simply, can you make up your mind, or make judgments on something that will never even come to mind to start with? What was truly at stake all basically comes down to this question.

More evidence in scripture further proving my point on the knowledge of sin being the reason for the sacrifice.

(James 1:13-15) "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: [14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. [15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Here James clearly states that sin doesn't just pop into existence from out of nowhere. It has to have a beginning, it has to be conceptualized, which is something that is done in the mind. Whether or not we have the ability to judge for ourselves what is right and wrong is irrelevant because if you can't even conceptualize it in your heart, or your mind, then there is nothing there to be concerned about to begin with. This is what God won't have to worry about occurring ever again in the world to come.

To the interested.
There are many folks that are not taught the Hebrew aspect of the Gan Eden and miss some very interesting points.
Not saying that your wrong in many cases but only that most are incomplete.

The created man was made of earth which at the time he was created from earth, the earth was as pure as the celestial heavens are today. It made little difference of the substance arrangement that was in the creation because it was all pure at the time it was formed.

When the earth was cursed is the key to understanding some of this subject. As the earth was cursed it was a death sentence and all of the second creation [our universe] is created from earth. Therefore being created from earth, all earth must carry that curse of death. It was not the created Adam only that was cursed but also all created forms of earth are subjected to the curse.

So as one looks at the confusion of knowing good from evil and not knowing good from evil is not necessarily the explanation most folks consider. As Adam was a light bearing creature and not knowing the ramifications of disobedience does not mean that Adam was ignorant of the command from the Creator to obey a command. In other words Adam was not accountable till he chose to become accountable. He already knew of the evil inclination [yetzer] but not the ramifictons of death. Death did not exist in this creation because it was the curse which then became the knowledge of this thing called death. So death became the knowledge or ramification of the knowledge of knowing the ramifications of good and evil. Adam already had the yetzer but the yetzer was not tested as yet.

Adam lived in the garden not knowing what death was and after he wiilfully disobeyed he then became knowledgeable as God in knowing what death would be through the curse. If God had not cursed the earth then perhaps only Adam would have perished, but not so. All earth was cursed. This is why Satanail [the Satan of all Satans] and his celestial subjects were cast down to earth [this universe]. Not to this world but this universe. After many eons this band of celestial bandits came to this world and settled in its newly created beauty. We see this by the archeology of the kings list. At some point God then banished the entire pack of celestial outlaws into Sheol where they are today.

But this knowledge to do good or evil came as the result of the curse and all life is created and must die [perish at some time]. So, yes the knowledge to know good and evil came as a result of the curse and the curse came as the result of willful disobedience. This should answer the question as to why all creation must perish. Now this actually has nothing to do with the evil yetzer controlling Adam. Adam had this inclination already in his mind but it was not manifested till he released this and chose disobedience. We are not told whether or not Adam ate from that tree a hundred times with no ill effects at all up to the time that God forbid eating from that tree. Not saying that was the case but only a possibility. But all of this goes back to the curse of earth.

a reply to: Seede

(Genesis 3:17-19) "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; [18] Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

I fail to see what God cursing the ground had to do with bringing forth death. From what it says here, God changed the way the earth produced food. What used to come easier, humanity will now have to toil for, by the sweat of their brow. But the curse itself would not have mattered at all if God hadn't of kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden to start with, since they would have still had access to the tree of life. It wasn't the the curse that brought forth death, it was their removal from the garden that did it.

(Genesis 3:22-23) "¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: [23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

a reply to: Dcopymope

Question how was my sin forgiven by Jesus or Yeshua being put to death on the cross or stake. What are the nuts and bolts of it.
I did experience my sin being washed from me on Oct/8/1978 (that is a story in itself) but I didn't understand how my sin was forgiven by what He did 2000 yrs. ago.

a reply to: Joeshiloh

I can't tell really.

What did happen back then exactly?

He conquered death. The wages of sin is death. Jesus said he wanted to be in man, and God in him. Is he the possibility to sin no more?

The power lies in the resurrection I think, not in his death.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

I agree the power is in the rising from the dead.

So the wages of sin is death and sinful is our nature. Sin must have something to do with the lack of loyalty to the creator. Paul writes that with Jesus we can become spiritual. Being sinful we are loyal to Satan and perhaps have no awareness of God. Jesus is the transition, the way from sinful to spiritual. But that's all theoretically explained.

It's all about our nature of being.

The law makes us sin, spiritual we do no things against the law, you are free.

I don't know much, you know. There aren't many examples of people walking on water on earth either.

originally posted by: Joeshiloh
a reply to: Dcopymope

Question how was my sin forgiven by Jesus or Yeshua being put to death on the cross or stake. What are the nuts and bolts of it.
I did experience my sin being washed from me on Oct/8/1978 (that is a story in itself) but I didn't understand how my sin was forgiven by what He did 2000 yrs. ago.

Well that sounds more like a metaphysical question to me. The best way I can explain the how is due to Jesus fulfilling the law as a sacrifice without blemish. In other words, since the law is the standard God has given us, then it was the law Jesus had to live up to. He cannot claim to wash away your sins if he himself led a sinful life to start with. So this is something that no me're mortal flesh can ever hope to achieve in this life.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
So the wages of sin is death and sinful is our nature. Sin must have something to do with the lack of loyalty to the creator. Paul writes that with Jesus we can become spiritual. Being sinful we are loyal to Satan and perhaps have no awareness of God. Jesus is the transition, the way from sinful to spiritual. But that's all theoretically explained.

It's all about our nature of being.

The law makes us sin, spiritual we do no things against the law, you are free.

I don't know much, you know. There aren't many examples of people walking on water on earth either.

There are two different laws Paul referred to: The law of sin, and the law of God. What you refer to is the former, which wars against the law of God within you, bringing you under the captivity of sin. The law of God does not make you sin, it exposes it. Paul says the law of God is holy, and something that is holy cannot make you sin.

(Romans 7:21-25) "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

What actually brings forth sin is our ability to conceptualize it in our heart to start with according to James. Once its conceptualized, once the knowledge of it is gained, it is only a matter of time before it is actualized.

(James 1:13-15) "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: [14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. [15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

What is the heart of man exactly? I liken the heart of man to a computer without an antivirus system, the antivirus system being the "the law of God". Since there was no antivirus system, or "law" installed on the heart of Adam and Eve preventing the very knowledge of sin from being conceptualized, it was only a matter of time for it to be compromised by a virus, or sin. This is why the arrangement set forth in the garden of Eden was never going to last, because the law was never written on their hearts.

(Jeremiah 31:31-34) "¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

You see, the law is not just something that popped into existence on mount Sinai. We got it from God to start with, because God is the law, he is the standard we are to live by. The computer may have been designed "perfect in thy ways" without any infections, but that in itself doesn't make it impervious to malware. Likewise, Adam and Eve may have been designed as "good", and Satan may have been designed as "perfect", doesn't make it impervious to sin, like God is. We all sin because we can having free will, but since we now have an antivirus system installed on our hearts, that being Jesus who fulfilled the law, our ability to sin will no longer be of concern to God on the new earth to come. God restarting with a new creation without Jesus is like performing a clean install of your computers operating system without a good antivirus program installed. It would be a waste of time, because there is nothing there in place to stop the same thing from happening again.

a reply to: Joeshiloh

There are 4 parts, this playlist has all 4:

Why do we die? Why did Jesus Die? PART TWO

More details:

How Is Jesus’ Sacrifice “a Ransom for Many”?
The Ransom​—God’s Greatest Gift (What Does the Bible Really Teach?)
Ransom (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)
How the Ransom Saves Us

a reply to: Dcopymope

Very well then.
A least we somewhat agree.

a reply to: Dcopymope

TextI fail to see what God cursing the ground had to do with bringing forth death.

God cannot honor that which He curses. There are numerous scriptures in both testaments showing that sin create death.
Just as the fig tree disobeyed Jesus and died so it is will be with the earth. Adam was earth and when God cursed Adam He also cursed earth. Both must die just as the fig tree died. Sin cannot enter paradise. Without sin there is no death.

a reply to: Seede

If sin creates death, then Satan would be dead already, being the first sinner among all things made in heaven and earth. You say sin cannot enter "paradise", yet Satan is recorded throughout scripture standing before God in heaven as the accuser of man. Therefore, the reason why Satan isn't dead is because he was created immortal to start with. It has nothing at all to do with sin itself. God could have created us in similar fashion, he didn't need a tree of life to do it for him. God knows the future and he isn't a moron. He knew exactly what was going to happen, so creating us as non-immortal without the life giving force of the tree only made kicking us out of Eden a super easy decision to make. Death was inevitable by me're reason of them not having access to the tree, not because he made a change in the way the earth supports life with food.