Why the sacrifice had to occur

Sometimes believers and non-believers alike will ask certain philosophical questions about why God did this or that. The typical questions I see asked that many Christians find difficult giving satisfactory answer's to basically boils down to these:

1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?

2. Since Adam and Eve disobeyed God, why didn't he just destroy them and start over? Why didn't he do the same to Satan?

In other words, "why did God allow the fall to occur?" is the question. I posted another thread about this subject before long ago, but I really wasn't satisfied with it, so I'm giving it another shot. Often, people end up going around the block to cross the street even though the answer is sitting right in front of their faces starting from the very beginning of the book. When speaking about the death and resurrection of Jesus, the true reason as to exactly why he had to be sacrificed is often overlooked in relation to the garden of Eden. There is a very good reason why the tree is called the "knowledge of good and evil".

Jesus makes it very clear that transgression against the law actually starts in the heart, not in action. The law says thou shalt not do this or that, but Jesus takes it even further from simply "doing" what is forbidden, to also thinking of doing what is forbidden, in your mind. From Gods point of view, you already sinned the moment you even thought about it. This explains why Satan already sinned the moment "iniquity was found within him", according to Ezekiel.

(Matthew 5:27-28) "¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

(Ezekiel 28:14-15) "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. [15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil, and it should be the basis for answering all of the more difficult questions people often ask, because I personally don’t see any other way to answer them convincingly. Assuming God decided not to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the only thing that would have done was postpone what God already knew was inevitable. The fall, or the knowledge of sin cropping up within Adam and Eve was going to happen regardless if there was a tree or not. We can know this for sure because the fall already occurred in heaven with Satan, and it doesn’t put the blame on a tree for his fall into iniquity. This also addresses the second question. Could God have started over with another Adam, Eve and new earth? Sure, but I am 100% certain that God wouldn’t have allowed things to continue as they were if he actually had a choice.

Yes, I said it, God didn’t have a choice in the matter, because the truth is, the whole creation is doomed without Jesus. I can appease the Hebrew Israelite/old testament only folks and take Jesus out of the picture for the sake of the hypothetical. We now only have old testament history, and perhaps revelation, minus Jesus. God judges every soul and destroys the old earth for a new heaven, earth and new Jerusalem. Those whose names were in the book of life are once again made sinless, or “perfect in thy ways” like Satan was, or “good” like Adam and Eve was. We can even take it a step further and say that God rewards all those in the book of life with the much vaunted “glorified body”, that contrary to popular opinion has nothing to do with being made sinless, but everything to do with being made immortal like angels are.

(Luke 20:34-38) "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. [37] Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. [38] For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

Now understanding this, what exactly did God achieve in this hypothetical scenario? Was the knowledge of sin addressed by him simply creating a new earth and granting you immortality? The truth is it wouldn’t have accomplished a damn thing. Sooner or later, the knowledge of sin would have corrupted the creation in the new earth yet again. God did not need a tree of life for Adam and Eve to live forever, because he could have created them immortal like the angels in heaven from the get go if he really wanted to.

The reason why he didn’t is simple, he knew the future and he planned accordingly, God is not a moron. This is the crucial point of doctrine that the old testament only crowd and many Christians alike are not getting. When the Bible speaks of the “regeneration”, it is not really referring to you personally becoming sinless in this life, but is in fact referring to the end times creation of a new heaven and earth, and the old earth passing away along with sin, never again coming to mind, keyword being mind. None of this would be possible without Jesus, because he is the "regeneration", it is only his resurrection that truly makes everything new. When people understand this, they will begin to see just how profound his death and resurrection really was.

(Isaiah 65:16-19) "That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. [17] ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. [18] But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. [19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

(Revelation 21:1-5) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

man, nice....nicely written.

God had no choice....the devils bargain....

lately this what's in mind alot. Why was blood needed..



god wants the matter overwith, huh.....120 years to finish dealing with man...120 Jubilees about complete

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Well what people need to understand is that without Jesus in the picture serving as the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, everything promised to occur by the old testament prophets is a dead end, nothing but empty promises. They promise a new covenant where the law will be written within the heart of man, where our sins will no longer be remembered, but doesn't tell you how it will done. They promise a new heaven and earth, but doesn't explain exactly what it is about this new creation that makes it any different than the old creation, and what is stopping the knowledge of sin from arising within it like it did in the old. Without Jesus, there is nothing there to look forward to.

a reply to: Dcopymope

I prefer to "look at it"
as why people "did this or that".

Free will and all.

a reply to: Wildmanimal

Yes, we have free will, but if we get caught up in the same old tired discussion of the nature of free will, we miss the far deeper meaning behind the entire narrative regarding the nature of knowledge itself, how it comes to be, and the far reaching implications of it if not put in check. God knew that at some point, something was going to have to give when it came to the knowledge of sin, and that's where Jesus comes in.

a reply to: Dcopymope

S&F for a thoughtful thread but..we haven't a clue

We've all played that campfire game in which..Person 1 whispers to person 2 "Bumble Bee Tuna" and it's relayed onto 20 more people. Person 20 say's the original word was Swordfish, And that's just 20 people. We can't possible pretend what was "meant" thousands of years ago.

a reply to: Dcopymope

Jesus had nothing to do with the
obstruction nor proliferation
of free will.

From the Aramaic :
biblehub.com...

a reply to: Sabrechucker

Can we know with absolute certainty as to the reasons for Gods decisions? Not really, but at this point, I am at least 95% certain, because he gave us enough to come to a reasonable conclusion as to the meat and potatoes of the entire narrative, which is "the knowledge of good and evil".

a reply to: Wildmanimal

Never said he did, nor does the Bible. His sacrifice was in fact about the obstruction of the knowledge of sin, if 'obstruction' is the word you want to use. There is a difference between knowledge and free will. We cannot begin to understand the latter without understanding the former from Gods perspective. From his perspective, when it comes to the "regeneration" event, or the creation event, the only thing about the nature of our free will that truly changes is our ability to gain the knowledge that causes us to fall into iniquity. There is nothing about our free will for God to be concerned about if the very knowledge of sin won't even come to mind in the first place. This is what people are not getting.

a reply to: Dcopymope

I'll agree to that but, what is good and what is evil still remains a mystery to me.

a reply to: Dcopymope

Calling out the name of Christ causes 'alien' abductions to cease in its tracks. If we are indeed living the simulation, then the planting of the tree is paramount in ensuring the dictated end occurs exactly as planned.

Globally, are Christians adored or persecuted?

go back 500 years, ask the same question.
go back 1000 years, ask the same question.

"every hair on your head is numbered since before you came into the world"

or this one..

"I am the Alpha & the Omega, the beginning and the end"

IMO, we are living in a gigantic simulation that is best described as a game - our free will dictates the outcome, but the mystery of iniquity ensures we collectively move in a single linear direction towards THE END.

I see evidence of this all around me.

Great OP

a reply to: Sabrechucker

Well, as I understand evil, its basically anything that is opposite of the nature of God. What people assume about "the law" is that its something that only popped into existence on mount Sinai. This is far from the truth, because the law is simply the physical representation of the nature of God. In reality, God is the law, he is the standard. This is why Ezekiel can say that "iniquity was found within" Satan, because what was found within him is not what you will find within the nature of God. Any further explanation beyond this would be me claiming to have a full understanding of metaphysics and how the supernatural realm works, and no one ever will in this life.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

😁Thanks, great response there. I don't believe God made any mistake when he planted that tree. He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew exactly what what was going to happen.

A sim....yep, Missler on youtube agrees

I agree, having been hit by a 747 loader in 1979 at 1 am....Branniff at DFW and was yanked right when the hurting part would have happened....a reply to: Sublimecraft

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
A sim....yep, Missler on youtube agrees
I agree, having been hit by a 747 loader in 1979 at 1 am....Branniff at DFW and was yanked right when the hurting part would have happened....a reply to: Sublimecraft

The Universe is nothing like a computer program or simulation. Nothing ever repeats. I've never seen the exact moment in time ever loop like the cat scene in the movie The Matrix.

The Universe is analogy not digital. Everything is connected to everything else without any boundaries. In a digital world, everything is a clear cut abstraction.

You can pretend we live in a clockwork Universe with hard determinism but if you do you are being delusional.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: Dcopymope
Globally, are Christians adored or persecuted?

It's not that Christians are persecuted. The problem with Christianity is a psychological one. Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

Blind obedience to authority gives rise to people like Hitler who pretend to be God on Earth.

originally posted by: Dcopymope
This is the crucial point of doctrine that the old testament only crowd and many Christians alike are not getting. When the Bible speaks of the “regeneration”, it is not really referring to you personally becoming sinless in this life, but is in fact referring to the end times creation of a new heaven and earth, and the old earth passing away along with sin, never again coming to mind, keyword being mind. None of this would be possible without Jesus, because he is the "regeneration", it is only his resurrection that truly makes everything new. When people understand this, they will begin to see just how profound his death and resurrection really was.

How profound can it be if you think about it. You can't kill a God. So Jesus did not really die. No harm, no foul. You can't be resurrected if you never really were dead in the first place. Christianity has way too much goofy logic to be true. The Bible had to be written by men because of all the errors and crazy stuff.

My problem with most Christians is they don't concentrate on the teachings of Jesus like the Beatitudes. I have never seen a devout Christian ever quote or post anything about the Beatitudes. Instead, Christianity is more like Paulanity. Christians love to quote and talk about what the apostles talk about. The apostles were not Gods. It just seems people idolize Jesus like the way they root for their favorite football team. Christianity is not a religion it is fandom. Christianity is more about loyalty to the word "Jesus" and the symbol than it is about what the symbol represents.

Jesus is really a false idol. There is only true all-power all-loving God. And that God is God. There is only one God. And that God is God.

a reply to: Dcopymope

was jesus really a sacrifice?

usually a sacrifice is something you give up, never to get it again. thats not what jesus did.

if jesus was god, then he knew he wouldnt stay dead. he gave up nothing. no sacrifice.

if i give up coffee for 3 days, knowing that i will get coffee after that, did i sacrifice coffee? no.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Your problem is defeated in John 1.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word WAS God.

Jesus is the word being mentioned here.

Well, there goes your "Jesus is an idol" nonsense. Jesus is God. Titus claims this also.
James calls God the father of lights and Jesus is the light of the world.

Have you actually read scripture because a lot of your posts say otherwise....

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Dcopymope
This is the crucial point of doctrine that the old testament only crowd and many Christians alike are not getting. When the Bible speaks of the “regeneration”, it is not really referring to you personally becoming sinless in this life, but is in fact referring to the end times creation of a new heaven and earth, and the old earth passing away along with sin, never again coming to mind, keyword being mind. None of this would be possible without Jesus, because he is the "regeneration", it is only his resurrection that truly makes everything new. When people understand this, they will begin to see just how profound his death and resurrection really was.

How profound can it be if you think about it. You can't kill a God. So Jesus did not really die. No harm, no foul. You can't be resurrected if you never really were dead in the first place. Christianity has way too much goofy logic to be true. The Bible had to be written by men because of all the errors and crazy stuff.

My problem with most Christians is they don't concentrate on the teachings of Jesus like the Beatitudes. I have never seen a devout Christian ever quote or post anything about the Beatitudes. Instead, Christianity is more like Paulanity. Christians love to quote and talk about what the apostles talk about. The apostles were not Gods. It just seems people idolize Jesus like the way they root for their favorite football team. Christianity is not a religion it is fandom. Christianity is more about loyalty to the word "Jesus" and the symbol than it is about what the symbol represents.

Jesus is really a false idol. There is only true all-power all-loving God. And that God is God. There is only one God. And that God is God.

Two questions if I may...?

What/Who is god in your eyes/opinion?

And how did you come to this presumption?

Lags