New Zealand’s gun confiscation program just failed miserably

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut

A police search of their property will get them jail time and a criminal record. Even if the gun is never used for criminal purposes.

Sounds kinda dictatorial to me.

Congratulations?

TheRedneck

It isn't.

If you don't do anything illegal, you don't get busted for it.

A gun is not a necessity in a fair and safe society. It may well be a necessity in yours.

Where is a fair and safe society please do tell. Guantanamo Bay?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: FredT

My Noveske AR sure looks like it dropped out of a Call Of Duty game and looks evil, but I guarantee you my 308 Ruger is way way more deadly.

Nice gun, I have Daniel Defense. When I swap my uppers back and forth from 5.56 and 300 BK both fit like they were milled perfectly to the one lower.

Nice< I looked hard at DD but went with Noveske because there were a state away in Oregon and it was easier to get a CA compliant one before the most recent ban

If I lived on a small set of Islands, I would not want guns to land there with a group of Pirates on raiding parties would I?

I mean, Pirates will not do that will they? Why would they want to take advantage of unarmed populace I wonder?


Avoid thinking like this post here I would say or die one day unexpectedly from hot lead poisoning.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: 727Sky

"Sorry Democrats"? Do you think that this has any relevance with a US political party?

This article is also a bit pre-emptive of any actual figures, the amnesty concluding only six days ago, and no official figures in.

This is the epitome of opinion instead of actual news.

In New Zealand, we never had a anything that explicitly calls carrying a weapon, a human right. Which is because it is just stupid, that you have to have guns to defend against people who have guns, because they have to have guns to defend against people who have guns, because they have to have guns to defend...

And the idea that you could defend against a tyrannical government that is massively better armed, provisioned and trained than the general populace is similarly stupid. To do so is to die, quickly.

Not that the US 2nd amendment even actually specifically mentions guns! US citizens have the right to bear anti-personnel mines and US citizens have the right to bear bio-toxins and delivery systems. But that would be insane, right?

New Zealand will most likely have a reduction in gun crime, similar to what happened when bans went into place in Australia. The statistics, when they are in and published, will no doubt be argued against by the US gun lobby trying desperately to justify arming the insane by just as much as you arm everyone else. Just so they can make sales.

If there were 120,000 people who have retained guns that are now illegal, then they ARE criminals in law and in intent.

A police search of their property will get them jail time and a criminal record. Even if the gun is never used for criminal purposes. That is how a gun ban works.

originally posted by: [post=24840448]chr0naut


Has it occurred to you that it is possible to choose not to hunt feral hogs or coyotes?

You only need a multi-shot gun there because you are placing yourself in danger.

Feral animal numbers can be held in check far more effectively through trapping and baits.

Not really on all 3 points.

Feral hogs are hugely destructive and are quite damaging to the environment (I have hunter both in Hawaii with bows and in Texas and Oklahoma with bows, 5.56, and .308) and lets face it quite tasty. For the record I do not hunt coyotes

What exactly do you mean by multi shot? My bolt action Ruger Scout has a 10 round magazine. Do you mean semi automatic? Rest assured that I can maintain a decent rate of fire with the bolt action ruger and you almost seem to think that we go all rambo sending round downrange ever second. You still need to aim and make sure you are on target

Yes, but those traps and poisons kill other species you want to keep no? Far better to hunt the animals in question and we had a tradition in my family that most of the meat went to needy families in the community. Thats a win win

a reply to: 727Sky

I didnt even know people owned guns in new Zealand, in fact Australia for that matter to begin with. I just thought they all had boomerangs as protection or really really big knifes. Not like they need it, maybe to put down those raging kangaroos or koala bears or who knows what else. I think the last time those places had high rates of crime was when the crown started sending convicts there, and pirates were swashbuckling the high seas.

But either way. Seems pointless.

It was sad to find that knifes are not cool in Australia of all places, one of the places which made the modern bowe knife famous. Sad indeed...Well I suppose we will see what happens in a generation or two or some years from now in those places, as I dont think crime was that rampant to begin with. But who knows, places were people dont have guns and cant protect themselves, are bound to attract those who can circumvent the law and are more then willing and able to do it.

And lets face it the cops show up after the fact, as its the nature of such things. And the government? Does not have a good track record of not being corrupt, over time and over every other civilization that has existed, that has been the case. At best you want an inept government so that way there not so good at #ing the people over.


Soo....Its all water under the bridge, as time will tell.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Xtrozero

(All of this I X'd out of TRN's reply was very good. Therefor in the name of brevity I chose this part)

No, they want anything that will use expanding gas to launch a projectile. For now anyway; they'll soon want anything that can launch a projectile period... including but not limited to a kid's rubber-band-equipped slingshot. The purpose is to make sure no one can defend themselves.

TheRedneck

I think stun guns are going to be a novelty for a time because you are spot on with that. Where can I find a good stun gun Stock to invest in is my nest question? I want a real Phaser and I suspect light swords will probably happen too. Now, if I only knew someone like Star Trek's Scotty. I am the type that would set it to stun.

originally posted by: [post=24840448]chr0naut[/post


Has it occurred to you that it is possible to choose not to hunt feral hogs or coyotes?

You only need a multi-shot gun there because you are placing yourself in danger.

Feral animal numbers can be held in check far more effectively through trapping and baits.

Not really on all 3 points.

Feral hogs are hugely destructive and are quite damaging to the environment (I have hunted n Hawaii with bows and in Texas and Oklahoma with bows, 5.56, and .308) and lets face it they are quite tasty. If it was good enough for Obelix then its good enough for me. For the record I do not hunt coyotes

What exactly do you mean by multi shot? My bolt action Ruger Scout has a 10 round magazine. Do you mean semi automatic? Rest assured that I can maintain a decent rate of fire with the bolt action ruger and you almost seem to think that we go all rambo sending round downrange ever second. You still need to aim and make sure you are on target

Yes, but those traps and poisons kill other species you want to keep no? Far better to hunt the animals in question and we had a tradition in my family that most of the meat went to needy families in the community. Thats a win win

a reply to: Freeborn

I appreciate this post with a caveat - so many non Americans can’t get their head around the fact that we have, want and in some cases absolutely need them. Not really about us justifying that need/want, we’re just different countries with a want/need for different things.

So bravo sir for not sticking your nose up at us

a reply to: chr0naut

Has it occurred to you that it is possible to choose not to hunt feral hogs or coyotes?

Feral animal numbers can be held in check far more effectively through trapping and baits.

Actually horribly wrong, several states have listed feral hogs as varmints with a 365 day season and no bag limit and they still have an exploding population.

It looks like to me that knives and blunt objects are the worst problem in NZ.

Funny thing isn't it, how criminals can make due with whatever is laying around, but innocent people are not allowed to defend themselves.

Did they pay people the true market value for weapons in the buyback, or did they rip off their own citizens, to placate scared of their own shadows, incapable of defending themselves city dwellers who would starve without the rural folks producing everything for them?

a reply to: gortex

umm yeah already forbidden to own under the law passed after ww2 in america. You have to get Gov permission to even have one.

originally posted by: Krakatoa
You posted...

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: 727Sky

New Zealand has a population of less the 5 million people , 51,000 fewer illegal firearms seems like a good result to me.

Assault rifles are a weapon of war and have no legitimate place in a civilized society.

You were asked to define "assault weapon". So, you answered with this definition and link to a respected dictionary...

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: TheRedneck

Here's one.
Assault rifle, military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire.
www.britannica.com...


If someone needs an assault rifle for hunting then they're obviously not much of a hunter , or they think Predator was a documentary.

(Responding to the bolded text in the above quotes).

Way to publicly express your total ignorance on the topic of which you preach. You do know that an AR-15 (and it's other civilian copycat rifles) are not select fire, right? They are ONLY semi-automatic fire, as are many pistols. Again, that means one trigger pull, one bullet. You can hold the trigger all day long, and you will still only fire one bullet. This is not rocket science here, and the facts have been posted repeatedly to you and others here at ATS. Yet insist on willingly ignoring the facts in favor of your need to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty., and doubt) of someone willing to defend themselves and others with firearms that "look scary" and "look like a weapon of war". The problem is they are NOT weapons of war, Let me repeat that so it sinks into that thick skull of yours, THEY ARE NOT ASSAULT WEAPONS OR WEAPONS OF WAR using your own posted definition.

So, what is your issue then? Do you always try to control other peoples lives because of your own willing ignorance? What other areas of your life are you going to tell others how wrong they are? What gives YOU the right to do that other than your fear and willing ignorance?

Since an Ar-15 usually comes in black everyone who hates them must be a raciest ! They are called automatic and weapons of war when in reality they are not fully automatic and unless it is a Red Dawn invasion Scenario they are not carried in war. So anyone who looks at statistics on what causes death will come to realize guns are not even close to the top 2 reasons of dying.
Some stats from the states : Email:

Here are some facts.



There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.00925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant. What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death: 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.



15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified.



17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence.



3% are accidental discharge deaths.



So technically, “gun violence” is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation.



480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago

344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore

333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit

119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)



So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.



This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.



Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So, if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.



Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assaults are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals.



But what about other deaths each year?



40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!



36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths.

34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide).



Here’s a surprise:

200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!



710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So, what is the point? If the liberals and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.).



A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total number of gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides ……………. Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions! So, you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns?



It’s simple:

Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.



Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution.

a reply to: Freeborn

I have absolutely no desire to tell Americans what laws they should or should not have, its their business.

And I have no real desire to tell New Zealand what to do. However, when someone from New Zealand who has been adamant about constantly telling Americans what they need to do and how wrong our culture is and what our Constitution really means, posts... well, to be honest I just can't help myself. Time about is fair play and all that...

I'm just waiting for a segway to tell him how his government works and why this gun ban is illegal... doesn't have to be accurate, mind you, just so long as I get to yank his chain like he likes to yank ours. He's never accurate either.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut

A police search of their property will get them jail time and a criminal record. Even if the gun is never used for criminal purposes.

Sounds kinda dictatorial to me.

Congratulations?

TheRedneck

It isn't.

If you don't do anything illegal, you don't get busted for it.

A gun is not a necessity in a fair and safe society. It may well be a necessity in yours.

So in your world fair and safe means even the criminals and animals play the game that you want?
NEWS FLASH
It won't happen that way and it will be way too late for people who listed you as an asset when that fateful moment a rapist with a gun/knife/shiv/club or razor wire attacks. Or a rabid Tasmanian Devil charges right at them. In America the wild hogs attack things they don't like and some can get over 1000 #. You have to climb a tree and hope someone comes along with a gun or you could be there a long time.

ETA
Wild Hog, Turkey seem to taste better too than the domesticated varieties.

a reply to: Justoneman

In America the wild hogs attack things they don't like and some can get over 1000 #. You have to climb a tree and hope someone comes along with a gun or you could be there a long time.

I actually know a guy that happened to.

He was deer hunting in the next valley over from me when he saw a razorback. Of course, he shot the critter... razorbacks are a nuisance here and have this habit of either eating a hunter's kill before he can get to it or eating the hunter. He said it let out a high-pitched scream as it went down, and he reloaded to try for a kill shot (rarely does anyone kill a razorback with a single shot from a deer rifle) when he heard more razorbacks from the woods. He climbed a tree to be safe since he didn't know how many there were, and that probably saved his life. He counted over a dozen.

They surrounded and ate the wounded one (still alive and screaming!) while he watched, then picked up his scent and circled his tree. He didn't have enough rounds to fend off that many pigs, so all he could do was wait them out. He did, and after a few hours they wandered off out of sight. He started to climb down and make a break for his truck, but before he could reach the ground they came back. They had literally hidden to let him get down!

He stayed in that tree for over 24 hours. Finally, he tried escaping again, and apparently the swine had found something else more to their liking. He stopped just before he reached the ground and listened for several minutes, then jumped down and ran for the truck.

That's a razorback: they have a skull like a bulldozer blade and hide as tough as nails; killing a single one is a chore and takes several shots or a specialty-designed high-powered round. They eat anything and everything in their path that they decide might taste good. They destroy entire ecosystems by turning them into a routed-out mudhole. They fear nothing, they hate everything, they pack together, and they are intelligent. You see one around here, you kill it immediately out of self-defense and get safe in case it has a pack.

I haven't been hunting in that valley since I heard his tale. I heard a few groups organized to kill the things off, but I never heard if they got them all or not; hopefully they did. I'll take my chances with a ticked-off black bear, a hungry mountain lion, or even a pack of coyotes over facing down a pack of razorbacks any day. One at a time is quite enough.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Krakatoa

You see I live in a society where people don't feel the need to bolster their manhood by carrying or owning high powered guns so while I accept you and your countrymen know more about firearms than I do I don't see why you have to get all upset over it when someone points out that such weapons have no place in a civilized society , I don't have a problem with guns I have a problem with idiots with guns.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Krakatoa

You see I live in a society where people don't feel the need to bolster their manhood by carrying or owning high powered guns so while I accept you and your countrymen know more about firearms than I do I don't see why you have to get all upset over it when someone points out that such weapons have no place in a civilized society , I don't have a problem with guns I have a problem with idiots with guns.

And I have a problem with idiots that spout off lies and half-truths to push their own agendas. Like you.

See, you were called out on being totally and willingly ignorant on this topic. Yet, instead of being an adult and accepting that and apologizing, you weasel out of that by attacking me personally. That proves to everyone here not only are you a liar, but a shell of a person with no personal morals.

Personally, I accept the fact that criminals will not follow the laws, and I am responsible for my own safety. I accept that responsibility, unlike you who place your trust in a mommy govt to protect you.

Enjoy your childlike little world. I certainly hope you have a change of heart if you ever decide to leave your baby crib of perceived safety and join us adults.

Ouch.

I chose to live where they wildlife can be seen more than I chose to be somewhere that required a weapon. Logic takes over eventually. I was a city boy and now I am a country gentleman. I would hope people could love each other, especially this week. Being willfully uninformed is dangerous in this 'civilized society'. A well armed society is a polite society. People are allowed to protect themselves to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.

a reply to: Krakatoa

Yet, instead of being an adult and accepting that and apologizing, you weasel out of that by attacking me personally.

I have nothing to apologise for and where did I attack you personally ? , you attacked me personally and yet cry foul when my response was civil , strange world.
Sticks and stones.

Enjoy your childlike little world. I certainly hope you have a change of heart if you ever decide to leave your baby crib of perceived safety and join us adults.

How childish but I've come to expect that here these days.

originally posted by: FredT

Feral hogs are hugely destructive and are quite damaging to the environment (I have hunter both in Hawaii with bows and in Texas and Oklahoma with bows, 5.56, and .308) and lets face it quite tasty. For the record I do not hunt coyotes

Hogs are super smart, so I'm not sure if poison would work. Hogs eat anything and everything and they are very fast and can be dangerous. Extremely good sense of smell up to 6 miles and 30 feet underground kind of sense, can run 30 MPH, jump 3 foot fences and climb out of 6 foot pits...They can have 2 litters per year of 5 or 6 per litter. You can literary kill 1/2 the population per year and just barely slow down their population growth. Oh they can weight 200 to 300 pounds, some mixed breeding with Russian boar that got away decades ago from hunting camps can weight much more, oh they also caused 500 mil in damages in 2018.

Yes, but those traps and poisons kill other species you want to keep no? Far better to hunt the animals in question and we had a tradition in my family that most of the meat went to needy families in the community. Thats a win win

Poison is really nasty stuff, even rat poison. With 200 million cats and dogs in the US poison is not good anywhere.