Where do I go when I die?

originally posted by: miri2019

originally posted by: Floridadreamin
[...]

Also, what about pets and animals? Do they have souls?
How do we know?

Yes, animals are souls like us, they're closer to humans than most people think. Once they were humans.

Hello,

So you think animals were once a human being?

Do you also believe mankind came from the ape?

I did not come from the ape family.

Reincarnation is a myth. This was clearly explained by the Ancient Church Fathers (The Apostles and their disciples)

originally posted by: miri2019
a reply to: silo13

When I die I've been assured by Christ I will go to heaven and not you or anyone else can tell me 'no'.

[...]

And they're both the truth.

I'd be very cautious when I have my mind already set about an opinion. Strong opinions need strong proofs.

If people *say* that one thing is true, that doesn't make it necessarily so, even if there are too many people saying that. If people say that "one will be saved just by believing in the Son", that doesn't make it a truism. My motto in judging the reality is "it doesn't matter what I *think*, it matters what the reality is".

The road to heaven is a journey, it's gradual, that will take as much time as how much evolved the individual is on the scale of the morality, spirituality and personal connection with God. So as long as you're assured only by God Himself that you'll be saved, if/when He communicates personally to you (like talking to you), then you can be fully sure about it. Just lead a moral life and follow and trust God only, and you'll be golden, the door of salvation will open for you.

I don't agree with everything you said but I am on board.
Star from me.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Hello

You are aware that we all have a body, mind and spirit, Yes?

If you do not believe this then you will remain stuck in a false direction of life after death. One reason from many why the dead are stuck on this planet and have not moved on.

Resurrection and paradise are two seperate issues.

For you - I know you have studied God's word but think about this for a second.... God said in Genesis, lets make man in our image. What does this mean? God is a spirit. He is not human though he looks human. Each and everyone of you have a living spirit inside you. So you think when you die the spirit also goes to the grave? It does not, only the body and yet your spirit lives on.

The body sleeps at death and that is 100% correct but again we are more than a body. This can be easily tested if you seek truth and knowledge with an open mind. FIRST hand knowledge is always best BUT fear stops most people for doing correct research in the paranormal worlds....

So you think when the body dies and goes to the grave so does your spirit? What does the spirit do in the grave. Lay there awake waiting for the "body" resurrection? NO, the dead body waits for a resurrection not your spirit. It is crucial at this point to understand the basics in the spiritual worlds.... because if you don't you will be surprised and overwhelmed at time of death.

Everyone has a sixth sense. Ever feel like someone is watching you but you see nothing? Our spirit has this sixth sense. It recognizes both dark and light entities and once our mind comprehends this sixth sense our body responds in a negative or positive way. A sixth sense is not sorcery. Researching death is not sorcery and exorcism is not sorcery.

Do you understand this secret...."Walking in the spirit"?

About 20 years ago at an exorcism the priest asked the possessed lady how do know the difference between God's children and those that have walked away and rejected God? The answer was simple...she said it was the LIGHT. They can see the light. This light either grows and gets brighter or gets dimmer all based on your beliefs !! The brighter the light the closer you are to God.

For those who reject the idea of man having a spirit inside of them will always be confused from the many false teachings in religion. The dark side shows itself

I know I should have written much more in OP but I am lazy. White paper threads is too much for me and BORING for many reasons. So throughout this thread I will try to answer some questions...

DS

Yes, I am aware of all that, but kept my post brief, because so many confuse spirit with soul.

I always think it's fun to read the arrogance of people who through casual observation attempt to exert authority over a subject debated by cultures that have studied it for centuries.

The matter and energy you currently have is recycled.

I can't say if we are apes or reincarnated but I know 1 thing, it currently is of little importance to waste the life you do have posturing over what comes next.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Hi D-Slayer,

So you think animals were once a human being?

I could have said it better above, but here I'm talking about the beings, strictly from a spiritual viewpoint. I consider every sentient being as a soul-led one, regardless of their physical appearance, composition and size.
(The origin of the animals' souls and history deserves its own thread which I really planned to do at later date, but it's ok).

Now let me explain:

Why I said above that the animals once were humans (souls)? Because animals are sentient beings, they have a soul and their respective past history. So, once, long long time ago, ages ago, these animals (these souls) were angels in heavens, which did a big mistake and went against God, who punished them for that. We humans suffer on this planet, but animals suffer too. I've always had this question why they are suffering too with us ?!! This is a very tough universe for every single being.

I'm aware that it sounds unbelievable, but for me it's a true and terrifying story indeed.
I've said it before and I say it again, God's punishment and anger take a long long time, and we're talking eons here. And that punishment could take any form, expected or completely unimaginable and horrific at that.

Do you also believe mankind came from the ape?
I did not come from the ape family.

Man is a soul, but human bodies came from the evolution, starting from the smallest creatures in the oceans and so on higher and more complex bodies on land. So yes our bodies came from the apes' physical bodies. I'm intentionally using the word "bodies" here, because I'm strictly talking about the physical aspect here, not the spirit one.

Reincarnation is a myth. This was clearly explained by the Ancient Church Fathers (The Apostles and their disciples)

Reincarnation is true as the light of day, the church fathers could have their own opinions. If souls have a future beyond death, what about their past, beyond this current life?

Souls just don't get born here for the first time ever and suffer, what about the angels with their unlimited powers and enjoying existence?! It simply doesn't compute.

===

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I don't agree with everything you said but I am on board.
Star from me.

We don't have to agree on everything, as long as we have certain essential things in common, I'm fine with that.

Thanks for the star

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Originally posted by DeathSlayer
You have asked a question that is a BIG secret within the walls of the Vatican and other religions- you asked how do you know they aren't all demons feeding false information... I would like to answer this but it is best left alone.

Well, you’re asking us (Ats Members) to believe (trust) what you are saying in your Op and that this information comes from the dead…so if you can’t answer that question, then that leaves me and other ATS members in a tricky situation…

Imagine a guy who has been accused of committing a bad crime, and He tells me He didn’t do it…

I then tell you “Hey, the guy didn’t do it…”

You ask me “How do you know he’s telling the truth, how can you trust him etc…

My Reply “ I cant say…it’s a secret”

See the problem…?

Originally posted by DeathSlayer
Both sides (dark and light) have effective battle plans. The best way I can explain this is.....these battle plans change like on a real battle field and each side tortures the other side for information. There are ways to torture spirits and not hurt the human body. Most will "Cut a Deal" but it can take time; days, weeks even months.

I apologize for being vague in this question but I will not disclose this secret to anyone on ATS including in PM because I do not know you. I hope you understand.

Must be quite a secret…

The only thing I can think of is Wonder Woman’s “Lasso of Truth” lol

Originally posted by DeathSlayer
Both the dark and the light are everywhere including here at ATS.... and I have been SPIRITUALLY attacked by two ATS members with powerful OBE connections to the dark side. They failed miserably and I no longer see them on ATS and I will leave it at that.

Like I stated in the OP ghost can become demonic similar/equal to a poltergeist which did not come from hell. They are filled with hate and jealousy which can occur to the best of us if stranded on earth at time of death. It happens with time and this is the danger by being "left behind on earth as a living spirit" - walking to and fro.... you change over time.

From what I have seen on various paranormal Tv shows, the Spirits are trapped here mostly because they live in fear of Hell or by believing that they will be judged negatively by God. They still have their freewill intact while walking in the spiritual…God isn’t forcing them to be stuck here, it’s their own freewill choice imo…

There are countless cases where the trapped spirits are persuaded to enter/return to the light…usually after some reassurance from a psychic or a caring individual…and in most cases this seems to do the trick.

- JC

a reply to: DeathSlayer

where are you when youre asleep, but not dreaming?

welcome to the afterlife.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Where do I go when I die?

Back here.

Sorry for that.

Earth is all the Hell but also all the Heaven you can get. It all depends on what you make it for yourself.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

So paradise and heaven are NOT the same thing. Paradise is where Jesus went when he died for three days…. NOT HELL. People who go to paradise will see a resurrection. Many of your loved ones are there but not all.

You are right even when you are wrong. Paradise is the celestial real estate which is located in the third heaven which in turn is not in this universe. Paradise is located in the heavenly abode of the New Heaven and New Earth. Upon this new celestial earth is the kingdom of heaven and in this New Jerusalem [kingdom of heaven] is the Tree of Life. The tree of Life is given only to those justified spirits who have attained a new celestial body.

Yes Jesus did die and did descend into Sheol but only that portion which is divided from Hell. Hell and Paradise were at that time separated and were in Sheol. Jesus spent three days and three nights in paradise which was at that time located in Sheol. Jesus brought both paradise and all who were in paradise up to the celestial realm of the third heaven and into His kingdom city of New Jerusalem.

The paradise of God is now located in the celestial city of New Jerusalem where the tree of life is located. In this respect you can find all of this in the NT scriptures of the KJV bible. You asked for no scriptural references so I gave you none outside of the KJV bible.

As it stands today in accordance with the doctrine of Jesus, as taught by His brother Jacob, all who die since the death of Jesus are immediately judged and given either hell or the kingdom of heaven. The doctrine of Jesus is not the doctrine of rabbinic Judaism. I have no idea where you got your doctrine but it certainly is not the doctrine of the Christ Jesus nor of the NT KJV bible.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
I believe in an endless cycle of reincarnation

But I kind of like the idea of heaven, so would want to go there

“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread* [Or “food.”] until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)

Pretty unambiguous isn't it?

Details:

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal (One Myth Leads to Another)

What is the origin of the myth?

“The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception.”​—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 11, page 25.

What does the Bible say?

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”​—Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version.

Regarding the creation of the first human soul, the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh].”​—Genesis 2:7.

The Hebrew word neʹphesh, translated “soul,” means ‘a creature that breathes.’ When God created the first man, Adam, He did not infuse into him an immortal soul but the life force that is maintained by breathing. Therefore, “soul” in the Biblical sense refers to the entire living being. If separated from the life force originally given by God, the soul dies.​—Genesis 3:19; Ezekiel 18:20.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul raised questions: Where do souls go after death? What happens to the souls of the wicked? When nominal Christians adopted the myth of the immortal soul, this led them to accept another myth​—the teaching of hellfire.

Compare these Bible verses: Ecclesiastes 3:19; Matthew 10:28; Acts 3:23

FACT:

At death a person ceases to exist

Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell
Myth 3: All Good People Go to Heaven
Soul (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

Definition: In the Bible, “soul” is translated from the Hebrew neʹphesh and the Greek psy·kheʹ. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. To many persons, however, “soul” means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible teachings.

What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?

...
1 Pet. 3:20: “In Noah’s days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.” (The Greek word here translated “souls” is psy·khaiʹ, the plural form of psy·kheʹ. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”; RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)

Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from neʹphesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is said to have blood.)

Josh. 11:11: “They went striking every soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword.” (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

Where does the Bible say that animals are souls?
...
Can the human soul die?
...[whereislogic: see earlier quotation of Ezekiel 18:4]
Is the soul the same as the spirit?

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ruʹach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ruʹach; but the word translated soul is neʹphesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ruʹach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

...

Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit [Hebrew, from ruʹach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (NAB, Ro, Yg, and Dy [145:4] here render ruʹach as “spirit.” Some translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm 104:29)

What is the origin of Christendom’s belief in an immaterial, immortal soul?

...

“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.

...

“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.

Genesis 3:4

At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.

And later he added: 'death is a passage to another kind of life, so death isn't really death anymore, the real you will not die because your soul or spirit will keep on living' (conflating soul and spirit where needed, or introducing reincarnation to promote the same lie: “You certainly will not die.”). Although he used his human servants and pawns to spread that idea. So the situation is a little different from his conversation with Eve. The lie is pretty much the same though, if you think it through.

originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck
a reply to: DeathSlayerYou say not to quote biblical text yet your concepts are from the bible.

And it didn't take very long for the OP to misinterpret Scripture to fit in with their own philosophies/ideas about death, paradise, hell and heaven.

For example:

“You Will Be with Me in Paradise”—Where? When? (Awake!—1979)

HISTORY tells us that, shortly before Christ died, an evildoer on a stake alongside him said: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Though that man was to die before sunset, the account continues: “Jesus said to him, ‘I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise.’”—Luke 23:42, 43, The Riverside New Testament (1934), by Professor W. G. Ballantine.
...
Paradise—Where?

If you were to read various comments of clergymen and scholars on Jesus’ words at Luke 23:43, you would find conflicting views about what Christ meant by paradise. (1) Some theologians contend that Jesus was drawing on a prevailing Jewish idea that the dead awaiting resurrection are in a portion of Sheol (the grave) called “paradise.” (2) Others firmly hold that Jesus was promising the evildoer that on that day they would be in heaven. (3) Yet others say that Jesus had in mind an earthly paradise such as the garden of Eden. Since it may involve you, what do you think?

Consider the first-mentioned view, that the paradise was part of the grave (Hebrew, Sheol; Greek, Hades). Typical of what many say, German Bible translator L. Albrecht states that by “paradise” Jesus meant “the place in the realm of the dead where the souls of the righteous await resurrection.” This is widely accepted because ancient Jewish literature shows that at some period Jewish rabbis taught that there is a blessed part of Sheol for the dead in God’s favor. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology discloses how this teaching arose: “With the infiltration of the G[reek] doctrine of the immortality of the soul paradise becomes the dwelling-place of the righteous during the intermediate state.”

But we do well to consider: Can anyone today be sure that that view of paradise was common among Jews when Jesus was on earth? Even if that be granted, the Jewish evildoer wasn’t the one who spoke about paradise. Jesus was. So what God’s Son knew from the Hebrew Scriptures is what is important. Ask yourself: When did Jesus ever countenance Jewish fables or pagan teachings? Do you think that Christ would accept a view based on the pagan Greek teaching of the immortality of the soul?

In the Scriptures, Hades (or, Sheol) refers, not to the underworld of Greek mythology, but to mankind’s common grave. The Bible also shows that the dead are unconscious. (Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14) Hence, when Jesus and the evildoer died, they went to the grave where they were unconscious, incapable of any awareness. Christ’s mention of paradise thus could not have been a reference to some imaginary happy portion of Sheol or Hades. Furthermore, the Bible says that by a special miracle of God Jesus was resurrected out of Hades on the third day, but it does not say that the evildoer was resurrected.—Acts 2:31, 32.

What, then, about the second idea, that in mentioning paradise Jesus meant going to heaven? Regarding Luke 23:43, German professor of theology Ulrich Wilckens writes: “Jesus’ ‘Kingdom’ is the renewed paradise of the time of the end, the heavenly realm of the everlasting nearness of God.” But does it seem to you that either logic or the Scriptures support such an interpretation?

According to the Bible, no human, including the apostles, could be accepted for heavenly life until Jesus had been sacrificed, had gone to heaven and opened or “inaugurated” the way into heaven. (Heb. 10:12, 19, 20; 1 Cor. 15:20, 23) Accordingly, it was not until Pentecost of 33 C.E., 10 days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, that holy spirit was first poured out so that the disciples were “born again,” a prerequisite to going to heaven. (John 3:3, 5; Acts 1:3-9; 2:1-4) The evildoer impaled beside Christ had died over a month before, so he was not “born again.” Logically he could not have been called to the heavenly kingdom any more than was John the Baptizer, who also died before Christ offered the sacrificial basis for heavenly life.—Matt. 11:11.* [Note that Jesus did not ascend to heaven the day he died or even the day he was resurrected. Shortly after his resurrection he told Mary: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” This also has a bearing on the question as to when what Jesus said to the evildoer applies.—John 20:17.

There are problems with both of the theological views considered above. Jesuit George MacRae observes: “From the time of the Church Fathers, the classical commentators on Luke’s Gospel have found no agreement.” Yet does that mean that no one can make sense of Jesus’ promise, which God included in the Bible?

It is of interest that a number of respected Bible scholars have connected the word “today” to the first part of Jesus’ statement. For example, J. B. Rotherham renders it: “Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise.” (See also the translations by G. Lamsa and Dr. W. Cureton, and those in German by Michaelis and Reinhardt.) Is that, however, what Jesus said and meant?

The Problem of Punctuation

The grammatical aspects of the Greek text allow for placing a comma (or, colon) either before or after “today.” But how did the writer Luke punctuate the sentence? The truth is, he did not! Professor Oscar Paret explains that the form of Greek script in which the “New Testament” was written “is composed solely of capital letters . . . loosely set next to one another without any punctuation to separate words and sentences. Greek literature used this script down to the 9th century C.E.” Thus in translating Jesus’ statement W. G. Ballantine, a professor of Hebrew and Greek, did not insert punctuation: “I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise.”—The Riverside New Testament.

Some have contended, however, that the expression “I tell you truly” or “Truly I tell you” does not allow for adding the word “today” to it. Is that true? Note what Dr. George Lamsa writes:

“According to the Aramaic manner of speech, the emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read [as it does in the New World Translation], ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ . . . This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept.”—Gospel Light from Aramaic on the Teachings of Jesus.

The Hebrew Scriptures themselves provide numerous examples of this solemn idiom using “today.”—Zech. 9:12; Deut. 4:26, 39, and 40 other instances in the book of Deuteronomy alone.

Further, The Companion Bible explains that the absence of the Greek word for “that” (hoti) in Jesus’ promise is noteworthy. If the text had read either, ‘I tell you that today . . . ’ or ‘I tell you today that you . . . ’ the meaning would be settled. But in the absence of that, “the relation of the word ‘to-day’ must be determined by the context.”*

The Context—Which Paradise?

What does the context indicate? And how does this relate to your hope for paradise in the future?

After making the above point, The Companion Bible adds:

“When Messiah shall reign, His Kingdom will convert the promised land into a Paradise. . . . [The evildoer’s] prayer referred to the Lord’s coming and His Kingdom; and, if the Lord’s answer was direct, the promise must have referred to that coming and to that Kingdom, and not to anything that was to happen on the day on which the words were being spoken.”

Also, in his footnote on Luke 23:43, German Bible translator L. Reinhardt says: “The punctuation presently used [by most Bibles] in this verse is undoubtedly false and contradictory to the entire way of thinking of Christ and the evildoer. . . . [Jesus] certainly did not understand paradise to be a subdivision of the realm of the dead, but rather the restoration of a paradise on earth.”

Yes, 1,900 years ago, when Jesus made that promise to the evildoer, the time for establishing the Messianic kingdom over the earth had not yet arrived. (Rev. 11:15; Acts 1:6, 7) But historic events of our time in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicate that the time for Christ to act as an installed king to eliminate wickedness from the earth is right before us. (Matt. 24:3-22) Then this earth will be transformed into a paradise, fulfilling Messianic prophecies that the Jewish evildoer may well have known about. By means of the miracle of resurrection many persons, including that evildoer, will come back to life in the earthly realm of the Kingdom. In this way Jesus will fulfill his words spoken so long ago: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

a reply to: whereislogic
This video sums up some of the key points regarding Luke 23:43, which reads in the NWT:

And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Starting at 2:10:

For those who want to see the other parts:

Why do we die? Why did Jesus Die? PART ONE (playlist)

Regarding something mentioned in the article in my previous comment:

If you were to read various comments of clergymen and scholars on Jesus’ words at Luke 23:43, you would find conflicting views about what Christ meant by paradise. (1) Some theologians contend that Jesus was drawing on a prevailing Jewish idea that the dead awaiting resurrection are in a portion of Sheol (the grave) called “paradise.”

You can find that theological philosophy expressed by Seede in his last comment. The response to this idea can be found in the rest of the article. But again, he also ignores the punctuation issue and John 20:17, as the OP does. Perhaps that's a clue why the OP doesn't seem to prefer to discuss or use actual bible quotations as he expresses what Luke 23:43 teaches according to him/her. Or why Seede didn't use any, not even from the KJV, as he claims:

In this respect you can find all of this in the NT scriptures of the KJV bible. You asked for no scriptural references so I gave you none outside of the KJV bible.

I didn't see any from the KJV either. A scriptural reference looks like this:

"Luke 23:43" (that is referring to the book of Luke, chapter 23, verse 43; that's a "scriptural reference". Of course you can also refer to something the Bible said somewhere, but then you probably shouldn't describe it using your preferred interpretation, as was done with Luke 23:43 in the OP, where what Jesus actually said, was changed into the interpretation the OP prefers, while what Jesus actually said was not quoted exactly, and thus obscured, especially the punctuation issue; even a direct quotation with the misleading* punctuation of the KJV would have been better though). *: as explained in either the video or the article I was quoting from and as it relates to John 20:17 (partially quoted in the footnote towards the end of the first section I quoted from the article in my previous comment, completely quoted in the video; it's a crucial text for understanding what Jesus meant and where the punctuation should be, along with a proper understanding of what's meant with "paradise" as explained in the rest of the Bible, and the previous parts of that series of videos, in particular part 1).

Accurate quotations (with proper rational punctuation that fits with the larger context of the Bible) that are relevant are even better of course when discussing these biblical subjects. Rather than taking things Jesus said out of the larger context of the entire Bible and everything in it that is relevant to gaining a proper understanding of what Jesus said at Luke 23:43 for example.

a reply to: whereislogic

You can find that theological philosophy expressed by Seede in his last comment. The response to this idea can be found in the rest of the article. But again, he also ignores the punctuation issue and John 20:17, as the OP does. Perhaps that's a clue why the OP doesn't seem to prefer to discuss or use actual bible quotations as he expresses what Luke 23:43 teaches according to him/her. Or why Seede didn't use any, not even from the KJV, as he claims:

Does terrestrial death enjoin consciousness? I use the interpretation of the KJV bible for a number of reasons which the principal reason was that there were 54 of the most brilliant translators used in the entire commonwealth of Briton to sort and translate the manuscripts used in this work. Among these translators was a man named Lancelot Andrewes who was beyond most all others in being an outstanding linguist. His knowledge in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac and Arabic, besides fifteen modern languages was so advanced that he is considered
one of the rarest linguists to have ever lived.

Because of these men such as William Tyndale and Erasmus, the KJV bible became a living word to all men. Now I have noted one outstanding thing in your understanding the literature of this KJV literature and that is that your interpretations are dictated to you by your predecessors doctrines. That could be overlooked if the literature had remained the work of the most brilliant minds to have ever existed but that was not followed.

This leads me to question why you do not quote the literature of your NWT in your discussions? You seem to prefer videos and quotations of other minds to express your views but seldom do you use your own understanding from the MSS of the great scholars who should be used in interpretations.

In your NWT of Luke 16 --------------
“Also, the rich man died+ and was buried. 23 And in Haʹdes* he* lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments,+ and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazʹa·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham,+ have mercy on me and send Lazʹa·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,+ because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’+ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish.+ 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm+ has been fixed between us and YOU people,+ so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.”

This portion of Luke is not a parable as so many are taught. A parable does not cite specific names or places. This is an example of a butchered portion of the KJV literature. Luke was a physician and being so was well educated in terrestrial death. Jesus would not have taught this through Luke if it were not true and would not have cited factual people in a specific place if it were parabolic.

If there is no consciousness after a terrestrial death then please explain how Abraham and the rich man could speak to each other? Then ask yourself, if this were a parable then for what purpose was it taught by Jesus? Even a parable has a message does it not? Then if this were a parable explain why Jesus would use factual names and a specific place.

But then this would contradict your doctrine would it not? So you must either ignore this teaching by Jesus as written by Luke or once again interpret it to suit your doctrine. I used this as an example of your own literature which you seen to overlook. I used no doctrine of man because the only doctrine I have is the doctrine of the Christ Jesus who is the Begotten of The Most High.

The comma argument is not very well understood by many people. It is not a question of where to put the comma as to what is the message. There was no comma in the MS which was used in most translations and in that lite it cannot be a right or wrong placement if it is not there to begin with. If you remove the comma in this dispute then it becomes your opinion of your own interpretation and in this case you are compelled to embrace your NWT because your doctrine must suite your interpretation and your interpretation must suite your doctrine.

Desire of flesh = desire to reincarnate. Nothing to do with sex you perverts.

I promise you, you do not want to chase the ghost of your dead relatives at death.


Op have you ever been to a movie theatre? Then you understand the fundamental nature of reality, including but not restricted to spirituality during the moment of death: The visible light on the monitor in front of you... Is an inverted reflection. The true source is behind you.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I think if one genuinely wants to be in the good place with God and Christ, one will be.

If you get that opportunity it may then me be a matter of unfinished business though, that will take one away from one's true home with God, again.

It may even be discussed amongst angels up there, and then maybe they will try and convince you to stay. this is why it is best to take care of business here and now in this lifetime. so you don't have to go back in to the universe and fix everything.

Though that would not be so bad either. It is really a win/win. Thanks to God the father, and his awesome love, justice, and mercy.

a reply to: Seede

The mere fact that names are given cannot be used as an argument against its being an illustration, in view of all the evidence that proves that to take it literally is to outrage reason and common sense and to contradict the rest of God’s Word. You know, those things I already discussed and quoted from the Bible in my first 2 comments which weren't mentioned anymore in your response. Like you didn't mention or respond to any of this regarding Luke 23:43:

Some have contended, however, that the expression “I tell you truly” or “Truly I tell you” does not allow for adding the word “today” to it. Is that true? Note what Dr. George Lamsa writes:

“According to the Aramaic manner of speech, the emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read [as it does in the New World Translation], ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ . . . This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept.”—Gospel Light from Aramaic on the Teachings of Jesus.

The Hebrew Scriptures themselves provide numerous examples of this solemn idiom using “today.”—Zech. 9:12; Deut. 4:26, 39, and 40 other instances in the book of Deuteronomy alone.

Coming back to the Lazarus parable...

The Catholic Jerusalem Bible in a footnote explains that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” Yet Catholics continue to take portions of this parable/illustration, or all of it, literal (as part of their arguments regarding a literal burning hell and the immortality of the soul). If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible (that are quite unambiguous what happens when you die, as quoted and elaborated on before, starting with Gen. 3:19 as I did in my first comment here). If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

Your daddy, whether or not you are aware of it, he's got you by the balls, so to speak. No offense to anyone who believes this stuff (or a variation on it, something that builds upon it, such as building upon the idea that conscious life continues after the death of the physical body in contradiction to the earlier quoted Ps. 146:4 after the question: "Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?"; first comment of mine here), just a heads-up that you're being tricked with these pagan-originated philosophies.

Source: Hell (Reasoning From the Scriptures)
Details:

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Seede

Continuing on from things mentioned in the last video about Hades (the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased. The Bible says that there is “no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades].”—Eccl. 9:5, 10.)

Questions From Readers (1971)

At Luke 23:43, why does the New World Translation put the comma after the word “today”?​—E. D., U.S.A.

In the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures Luke 23:43 reads: “And he said to him: ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’” Jesus said this in answer to the following request of one of the evildoers hung beside him: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.”​—Luke 23:42.
...
Where, then, should the comma be put? What is the testimony of God’s own Word on this matter? What did Jesus himself say? Did he believe he was going to inherit his kingdom and be in some kind of Paradise immediately after he died, in that same twenty-four-hour period?

Earlier, to his disciples, Jesus stated: “The Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.” (Luke 9:22) The two angels at the tomb told the women who had come there: “He is not here, but has been raised up. Recall how he spoke to you while he was yet in Galilee, saying that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be impaled and yet on the third day rise.”​—Luke 24:6, 7.

Jesus was not resurrected on the day he died, but on the third day from his death. Thus, he could not have come into his kingdom on the day of his death. Then where was he during those three days, before his resurrection? Acts 2:24 says: “God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.” So Jesus was in the grip of death during that time. Acts 2:27 further says concerning him: “You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.” Hence, Jesus was in Hades, which is mankind’s common grave. And the Bible says that there is “no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades].” So he was out of existence in Hades, as was the evildoer.​—Eccl. 9:5, 10.

Then, on the third day from his death, God raised Jesus from the dead as a mighty spirit creature. But the evildoer was not raised; he stayed in the grave.​—1 Pet. 3:18.

When Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized to appear to his disciples, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) Jesus showed that the answer was, No. The time had not yet come for his kingdom to be established.

Then, was God’s heavenly kingdom, with Jesus as king, established at any time during the lives of the apostles? No, for about sixty-three years after Jesus’ death and resurrection the apostle John was inspired to write that God’s kingdom was still in the future. (Revelation chapter 12) And it would be under that future kingdom that paradise would be restored.

Thus, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, in its rendering of Luke 23:43, is consistent with the truth of God’s Word concerning the establishment of God’s kingdom, the Paradise earth that will be restored under Kingdom rule, the condition of the dead, and where Jesus was during those three days.

Other translators have also seen the difficulty involving the comma in this scripture. The Riverside New Testament avoided the problem by not putting in a comma at all, rendering it: “I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise.” On the other hand, The New Testament by George M. Lamsa renders it: “Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” Also The Emphasised Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham reads: “Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise.”

So what Jesus was saying was that when God’s kingdom by Christ was established at a time then future, and when Paradise was restored to the earth, this evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life. He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” As an “unrighteous” person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God’s purposes and requirements. If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”