BUSINESS: America: #22; 49; 54 and Falling Fast

I know people who were sent home to have strokes and heart attacks. I know a Mexican woman who went back day after day with a sick convulsive baby - and was sent home every time. ...The baby was later diagnosed with Kawasaki disease and heart problems that resulted directly from that disease.

You people clearly aren't going to nonprofit hospitals, then.

Originally posted by soficrow
ALL hospitals have to do is treat life threatening situations. They do what's necessary to avoid lawsuits, and that's all.

They don't even have to do that in some places. If the nurse on desk figures out you don't have insurance, and can't pay, she can turn you away. They've done it to me, so I know it happens (in my case it was severe lacerations accompanied by massive blood loss - how I lived I don't know, sheer force of will I guess). I ended up bandaging myself with duct tape and sleeping for close to a week while my roommate fed me tomato soup and oyster crackers.

They turned my friend away despite intense abdominal pain that seemed to indicate appendicitis. She went home, it got worse. Another person took her back, she got turned away again. I took her back two days later because she couldn't stop crying the pain was so bad. The doctor barely looked at her, diagnosed it as stress, and told her to get some rest. It got worse, coming in waves, and so I took her to a hospital in Middletown, which was about an hours drive. They diagnosed her with gall stones, which was actually only part of the problem. She didn't get better, so she borrowed money from her parents and went to see a specialist, who finally diagnosed her with a combination of ulcers/stones. She got the treatment she needed, but it took MONTHS.

They turned a former girlfriend of mine away in New London despite the fact that she vomitted blood twice in the waiting room and had black stool (digested blood from a bleeding ulcer). We took her home, her condition worsened, so I brought her back in the morning and promised to pay for her. The nurse didn't believe that I could pay, and she was giving me a hard time, meanwhile my girlfriend was dribbling blood and sobbing like a child not ten feet away. I was real close to decking the nurse and dragging her through the hallway by her pretty blonde hair, just to get some attention so my girl could get some treatment. I was so pissed off, my girlfriend was afraid I'd do something, so she persuaded me that she felt better and we left. Her friend called an ambulance for her when we got home, and the EMTs, bless them, helped her get admitted.

Another time they moved my dad into a smaller room only about 4 HOURS after open heart surgery because some rich SOB from Westport who was paying cash complained about being in the same room with another patient while waiting for elective surgery. While moving my dad, the orderlies dropped him, and busted his sutures. He refused to sue because he hated how litigous our society has become, and I sort of respect him for that decision, but the whole experience made me more than a little antagonistic towards doctors and hospitals in general.

One more incident I can think of I can't verify, but I heard about it from an old friend of mine. He was apparently playing on his roof with a friend when they were in middle school, his friend fell off the roof and landed on a lawn sprinkler which pierced his side, spread his ribs and nudged his lung to one side. My friend's frantic parents brought him to the ER in their car because they were close by, only about a 2 minute drive. When they got there, they waited for almost three hours because there weren't enough nurses on staff to spare one to check him in. He said the hospital was like a ghost town until the next shift started and some more people came in.

Then there was that case where the guy died in the waiting room, and they didn't notice for something like 48 hours! Someone left, went home, came back for their next shift and saw the same guy sitting in the same place. They checked his pulse and found he was dead, and had been for some time.

I'm not advocating another system, simply voicing my dissatisfaction with the current one.

The Not-So-Hidden Agenda

Originally posted by soficrow
My agenda? Seeking truth, from every angle and perspective. Exposing bs. Also, See above. ...Despite the frequent accusations, I don't belong to any political party - if anything, I'm an idealistic anarchist. But really I don't fit anywhere - I'm still in process, under construction. And probably will be until I die.

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page, although I'm not an anarchist, but more of a governmental minimalist.

Most governments become irritable, surly and violent when they get too pudgy. Ironically, the solution most people seem to have for that is to overfeed them even more.

“Government out of control? Better send them more money to fix the problem!”

As for solutions, I asked what your recommendations might be -- and admittedly, in a rather snide, rhetorical way -- but I don't have any answers myself.

So far, I haven't seen any that I find all that persuasive, so I'm stuck here on the fence like a lot of other people who admit they don't have the answers.

I mainly try to avoid extremism, since that only seems to replace one set of problems with a different set of problems that are usually worse than the original problems.

Anyway, my point in all this is that it is not only okay to question people's motives, but a good idea.

More significantly, it's important to question our own motives. Because if we don't do that, we may never come to understand them.

Keep the faith, and never let anyone shout you down.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Originally posted by PistolPete
Let's see, the President is a power hungry fascist dicator, so let's give the federal government greater controls over our children's minds and our medical well being. (Socialized medicine isn't working as swimmingly as those living under it will have you believe either).

Who's saying this? :looks around:

Enough people have said that throughout ATS that it shouldn't be hard for you to ":look around:" and find.

[edit on (3/11/0505 by PistolPete]

Originally posted by PistolPete
Let's see, the President is a power hungry fascist dicator, so let's give the federal government greater controls over our children's minds and our medical well being. (Socialized medicine isn't working as swimmingly as those living under it will have you believe either).

Originally posted by wyredone
Who's saying this? :looks around:

Enough people have said that throughout ATS that it shouldn't be hard for you to ":look around:" and find.



[edit on (3/11/0505 by PistolPete]

Well then DisturbedBeliever I think your claims have been soundly refuted, people are regularly turned away from American hospitals. Even people with life threatening conditions.

Do you have any proof that they are not turned away or is it just your assertion that we have to take on face value?

Just admit that your health system is for those that can pay and has nothing to do with helping the sick.

That's not my name. You know, I think this right here says more about the rest of your post then I'm about to...

For that I apologise. I must have been thinking one thing and typing another. I know what your name is, as I have locked horns with you on more than one thread.

Yea, you'll see one after hours of waiting in a lousy ER where there's no doctor or nurse actually present to see how urgent your problem is.

You see, the reason i have not commented about the US on this thread is because I do not live there and never have been there, so cannot comment on things about which I do not know.

From your ever so exact and concise statements about the state of the NHS, I am assuming you have vast and immeasurable expierience with it? Or are you just basing it off a couple of reports on the news about a couple of patients not getting seen for a while?

Which, out of a population of some 60 million, is a very small percentage and there where probably mitigating circumstances. I am also sure I could trawl up some exact same reports about American Hospitals, but I won't, as I am not trying to get into a stupid wang measuring contest with you. I am stating fact.

On the 3 times I have been to A&E over the past 5 years, I was seen, diagnosed AND treated within the hour, and was home in time for a spliff and cup of tea, and an episode of SG-1.

I've dealth with this issue. Show me more then a small spike in a single year's data if you want to make a point.

Ok. I will bare that in mind next Dec/Jan, and we shall see if the trend continues. As it only began last Sept, I cannot argue with the fact that so far you could argue it as a spike, but we shall see.

I find my source more credible. I highly doubt your "updated" info would account for almost a 20,000 difference. That would also give the UK the highest GDP per capita in pretty much the world, which is a lot of bull.

Just because you think a source "less credible" than you would like, doesn't actually make it so. IDS (the people I got the report from) are used throughout the world, and the data they produce is widely used within the business community:

Who uses IDS publications and services?
It's no accident that if you walk in to the HR department of virtually any blue chip organisation, you'll find IDS publications in use there. IDS publications and information services are used by those responsible for personnel and related issues in literally thousands of companies, voluntary associations and public sector organisations. They are also extensively used by consultancies, trade unions, lawyers and specialist advisers of many types, academics, economic commentators and others - for example the IDS Brief service on employment law goes to all members of employment tribunals.

IDS

Wether or not you like it, my data is more up to date than your CIA data. Plus, we all know how wrong the CIA can be don't we?

Bear in mind that the dollar is worth next to bugger all compared to the pound. If what you saying is true, then everyone in the UK is living of less than £15k a year. That is BS. That is what a school leaver could expect to earn. The report I showed is actually a basis of average earnings, not splitting the GDP/Capita.

Like it or not, but the average UK person earns upwards of £20k.

You'll see my statistics were right on for the past few years in the UK. America saw nearly 4% GDP growth last year.

You cannot on the one hand use old data for one country and the latest data for the US. If you are using last years growth figures, so will I, and we did 3.1% not the 2.2% you claimed.



[edit on 11/3/05 by stumason]

Emergency rooms people!

If they won't take you call an ambulance.

Don't go through this stuff-

'be happy'

Originally posted by subz
Well then DisturbedBeliever I think your claims have been soundly refuted, people are regularly turned away from American hospitals. Even people with life threatening conditions.

Do you have any proof that they are not turned away or is it just your assertion that we have to take on face value?

Just admit that your health system is for those that can pay and has nothing to do with helping the sick.

No it hasn't. Wyrdone is lying his ass off.
1) it is illegal for an emergency room to turn away a patient for any reason, It is illegal for a hosptal to refuse to treat a patient due to lack of insurance.
2) I myself, several years ago went to an emergency room for a broken ankle, despte the fact that I had no insurance at the time, I was seen quickly, and treated. I was of course billed afterwards, and it took me some time to pay it off, but the fact that I had no insurance meant nothing.

moneycentral.msn.com...

[edit on 11-3-2005 by mwm1331]

While it is true that ER's have to treat you for an emergency it is also true that they are not going to run any expensive tests nor is any doctor going to order expensive tests for patients without insurance. There are actualy studies out there that says you have a higher risk of death without insurance. One reason is that people without insurance don't go to the dr. as often and the other is like I said no physician is going to order expensive tests for a patient that can't pay. In other word if you had went to the dr with a pain in your back instead of ordering an MRI to see what was causing the pain they would have prescribed pain relievers and bed rest.

Originally posted by mwm1331
1) it is illegal for an emergency room to turn away a patient for any reason, It is illegal for a hosptal to refuse to treat a patient due to lack of insurance.

Did you dream this up

Give us a law cite-

I don't believe it.

Originally posted by mwm1331

Originally posted by subz
Well then DisturbedBeliever I think your claims have been soundly refuted, people are regularly turned away from American hospitals. Even people with life threatening conditions.

Do you have any proof that they are not turned away or is it just your assertion that we have to take on face value?

Just admit that your health system is for those that can pay and has nothing to do with helping the sick.

No it hasn't. Wyrdone is lying his ass off.
1) it is illegal for an emergency room to turn away a patient for any reason, It is illegal for a hosptal to refuse to treat a patient due to lack of insurance.
2) I myself, several years ago went to an emergency room for a broken ankle, despte the fact that I had no insurance at the time, I was seen quickly, and treated. I was of course billed afterwards, and it took me some time to pay it off, but the fact that I had no insurance meant nothing.

moneycentral.msn.com...

[edit on 11-3-2005 by mwm1331]

when I broke my ankle, yes, the emergency room did take xrays, and yes, they did EVENTUALLY give me something for pain, yes, they did put a temporary splint on it......BUT IT TOOK A STATE LEGISLATOR CALLING DOCTORS AND HOSPITALS TO GET SOMEONE TO SET THE THING AND CASTE IT!!!

and well, our healthcare system isn't just for those that can pay, if it was, there wouldn't be the need for all the doctors and nurses that there are. So, they have to also tax the heck out of all of us so the doctors can have those nice high wages and the drug companies and rank in the profits....
so, I guess the healthcare system is for the very rich, or the very poor, but not for your average middle class worker.....
unless of course his health deteriorates from the lack of medical attention bad enough that he can no longer work, then well, he might luck out, and become one of the very poor, and be able to get his healthcare needs finally taken care of!!


[edit on 11-3-2005 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by PistolPete

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Originally posted by PistolPete
Let's see, the President is a power hungry fascist dicator, so let's give the federal government greater controls over our children's minds and our medical well being. (Socialized medicine isn't working as swimmingly as those living under it will have you believe either).

Who's saying this? :looks around:

Enough people have said that throughout ATS that it shouldn't be hard for you to ":look around:" and find.

[edit on (3/11/0505 by PistolPete]

That was an attempt at humor on my part. I wanted to make it clear that I didn't feel that way, and that I didn't say those things. I was going to add :crickets chirping: but I'm glad I didn't, you would have really let me have it.

I know some people are insane, just not me. See below...

To those wondering why I don't respond to mwm even after being accused of 'lying my ass off': he's ignored, I decided not to waste any more time in direct conversation with him, it's too fruitless and too frustrating. heh The only time I ever see his words is when someone else is quoting his inane responses in order to tear them apart.

Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act
Under this law, also called EMTALA, patients with an emergency medical condition are entitled to a medical screening examination, stabilizing treatment and appropriate transfers before they are questioned about their ability to pay, explains Cheryl Fish-Parcham, a specialist with the Washington-based Health Assistance Partnership, part of Families USA.

"In an emergency, the hospital staff can't delay treatment just to get information about you, and they can't discourage you from remaining for further evaluation," she adds. In other words, they have to treat you and can't delay treatment while you try to scrape up the cash.

Conditions such as severe pain, major impairment of body function, serious dysfunction of any body organ or any condition that left untreated could put your health in serious jeopardy are regarded as emergency medical conditions. A pregnant woman whose own health or that of her unborn baby is jeopardized is also considered an emergency situation.

From the link I posted in my earlier response.
As I said it is illegal for a Hospital ER to refuse treatment becuase you don't have insurance, in fact t is illegal for them to even ask if you have insurance before they have given you a medical evaluation.

Originally posted by mwm1331

From the link I posted in my earlier response.
As I said it is illegal for a Hospital ER to refuse treatment becuase you don't have insurance, in fact t is illegal for them to even ask if you have insurance before they have given you a medical evaluation.

mwm - No one is lying. We all are describing real experiences. ...You are right, it used to be either a law or a policy that people could not be turned away from emergency treatment. HOWEVER, that law or policy was changed - sometime in 2001.

Your information is out of date.


.

Yet more liberal BS propganda from an america hater.
This grows so tiresome, it must really hurt to wake up everyday hating yourself. Liberalism = self loathing and guilt for things out of their own control. And they want to control everything.................They are OK but the rest of the world is screwed up............Liberalism a mental disorder!

Do you have any proof that they are not turned away or is it just your assertion that we have to take on face value?

Besides what has already been said, there are nonprofit hospitals in this country which are not allowed to turn anyone away. They get tax emption for this. If they don't treat a person, they lose that status.

You see, the reason i have not commented about the US on this thread is because I do not live there and never have been there, so cannot comment on things about which I do not know.

Then I'll talk about Canada, where I have been numerous times, and had more than enough contact with Canadians, including nurses. Many nurses come across the border to work here in America. Both my brother and mom work at hospitals.

From your ever so exact and concise statements about the state of the NHS, I am assuming you have vast and immeasurable expierience with it? Or are you just basing it off a couple of reports on the news about a couple of patients not getting seen for a while?

You could find examples. I really don't care about your healthsystem. I'm simply concerned when people act like government healthcare is so superior, when it has just as many flaws, and in the longrun could cause more serious problems.

Bear in mind that the dollar is worth next to bugger all compared to the pound. If what you saying is true, then everyone in the UK is living of less than £15k a year. That is BS. That is what a school leaver could expect to earn. The report I showed is actually a basis of average earnings, not splitting the GDP/Capita.

I'm not sure how you find average, because the GDP per capita is supposed to be an average. It certainly doesn't seem to be the same.

You cannot on the one hand use old data for one country and the latest data for the US. If you are using last years growth figures, so will I, and we did 3.1% not the 2.2% you claimed.

I didn't use the latest data for America. It was all from 2003. I made notes for America simply because I'm more aware of what's happening economically with America.

Then I'll talk about Canada, where I have been numerous times, and had more than enough contact with Canadians, including nurses. Many nurses come across the border to work here in America. Both my brother and mom work at hospitals.

Fine, no problem with that. The reason I intervened on this thread was to correct the errors you had stated about the UK. The UK and Canada are two different entities and relating one to another is not fair.

The NHS, for its obvious faults (I am not denying it has any) functions very well, and when it comes to healthcare, we have one of the best systems in the world, with world leading Hospitals.

You could find examples. I really don't care about your healthsystem.

Then why comment and berate us? Lashing out at what you saw as an opportunistic target to vent your anger at your fellow Americans? Wouldn;t have minded at all if your comments had been balanced and fair, but they came across as a typical "America is best, f**k everyone else" attitude even though you where wrong in your assertions about that which you spoke.

I'm simply concerned when people act like government healthcare is so superior, when it has just as many flaws, and in the longrun could cause more serious problems.

I understand that. Private Healthcare has its benefits. Myself, and most people with a half decent job get Health cover through our employers, which entitles us to seek Private medical care, so for minor problems (say bad back, or other minor ailments), we would normally use that, as the NHS would be slow to get you seen (talking 3-6 months waiting list).

Many still choose, however, to use the NHS when they have more serious concerns. What does this say about the standard there? As I have stated before, I (or others I know) have never waited longer than 1 hr from start to finish in an A&E, and sometimes it has been as little as 20 mins.

I'm not sure how you find average, because the GDP per capita is supposed to be an average. It certainly doesn't seem to be the same.

GDP:
GDP is the total market value of goods and services produced within a given period after deducting the cost of goods utilised in the process of production.

Average earnings are taking the actual earnings of real people, rather than arbitually splitting the GDP by the entire population (which is dodgy, as not everyone works)

[edit on 11-3-2005 by JackJuice]

and I am sure that my state legislature brought this law to the attention of the doctor who was refusing to set my ankle until I came up with the $2000 deposit that he wanted.....

didn't stop the doctor from initially refusing did it?

NY is one of the most generous states when it comes to medicaid, our program is open to many more people than the federal government mandates. We have counties where total amount they collect in property doesn't cover their share of the cost their medicaid patients incur on their behalf. They cope by laying off employees, closing parks, skimping on road maintainance, banning overtime (even for snowplows during a bad winter storm, I think, at least I don't usually see them running around in the middle of the night anymore)....and taxing us more.....
and well, there's still people who are being denied the medical care that they need.....TAXPAYERS, who are helping to foot the bill for all this!

But, when the Governor tries to cut Medicaid, is it the poor or uninsured that raise up in protest, nope....

This is what happened.....
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"Health care workers protest Pataki's proposed budget
Some 2,000 health care workers from across the state rallied in the frigid wind Wednesday to protest Gov. George Pataki's proposed budget, which they say would decimate services at hospitals and nursing homes.

As Albany police kept watch on horseback, the heavily bundled demonstrators crowded in front of the state Capitol and shouted toward Pataki's second-floor office window, berating him for his proposed taxes and spending cuts they said would take $3.1 billion from the health-care system.
We won't reduce services, governor," said Daniel Sisto, president of the Healthcare Association of New York State which represents more than 500 hospitals, nursing homes and health facilities. "If you're not going to let us do our job, then just come out and take the keys."

Sisto said the governor's budget would exacerbate the fiscal problems already experienced by the state's hospitals, which he said have lost $2.1 billion since 1999. Pataki's proposed budget would also increase nursing home operating losses in the state from $128 million two years ago to almost $500 million, according to the New York Association of Homes & Services for the Aging.
With the state facing a projected revenue gap of $4.2 billion and a court order to pump billions of dollars more into New York City's troubled schools, Pataki in January proposed a $105.5 billion state budget that would cut Medicaid spending by $1.1 billion.

He also wants hospitals and nursing homes to pay higher taxes and receive lower reimbursement rates to help fill the budget gap. Hospital representatives vigorously oppose the so-called sick taxes, claiming they'll drain the health care system, reduce access to care and result in layoffs.
Both the Democratic Assembly and Republican state Senate have rejected past attempts to raise assessments on hospitals and nursing homes.

Pataki's budget, proposed for the state fiscal year starting April 1, is now being negotiated between the governor and legislative leaders.

Pataki's office did not immediately return a call seeking comment Wednesday.
www.newsday.com...
-----------------------------------
oh, here's a good one.....let's talk about the fraud......
----------------------------------
County sues drug firms, accusing them of inflating prices

BUFFALO, N.Y. -- Erie County on Tuesday sued 77 pharmaceutical companies, accusing them of grossly inflating reported drug prices to cheat Medicaid and taxpayers out of millions of dollars.

The county joins several others in the state and around the country that have filed similar lawsuits claiming drug makers have schemed for years to bilk the taxpayer-funded health care system for the poor.
"There is very little doubt, based on overwhelming evidence that has come to light in the last year or so, that the industry engaged in a pattern of conduct for 10 or more years ... that has defrauded not only this county out of tens of millions of dollars, but has been estimated to have cost Medicaid in excess of several billion dollars since 1992," said attorney Paul Pennock, who filed the suit in state court in Buffalo. "
www.newsday.com...
-------------------
more questionable practices???
-------------------------

"Care differs for kids
An analysis of national health data shows uninsured children are 59 percent less likely to see a specialist for a health problem than children who are privately insured. Also, the use of specialty care was 41 percent lower among black children than whites, 54 percent lower among Hispanic children, and 39 percent lower among other ethnic groups. "
www.mlive.com.../base/features-0/1108482422282960.xml
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one could kind of get the impression that either some children are being denied some needed care because of the lack of insurance, or one could conclude that the medical providers are bilking the insurance companies....either or.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Governor's budget proposes $3.1 billion in health care cuts and taxes, including $1.7 billion that targets hospitals ($1.1 billion), nursing homes ($526 million), and home care ($41 million.) His plan also would make deep cuts in Family Health Plus, the state's health insurance program for the working poor.
New York's Hospitals and health care systems -- which provide $1.6 billion in health care services each year to people who cannot afford to pay -- employ more than 342,500 full-time equivalent workers and have an annual payroll of $21.5 billion.

www.eisinc.com...
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Those cuts in the Family Health Plus, will kick more working people......TAXPAYERS FOOTING THIS BILL.....out of the healthcare system.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
let's see, that's several billion dollars lost through medicaid each year, just in the state of NY, due to scams designed to put money into drug companies pockets. And, they are griping about a 3 billion cut in the overall budget....wonder what that amount would be.....JUST IN MEDICAID COSTS IN NY STATE.

Makes ya wonder just how much money is going to this healthcare system, throught medicaid, medicare, research and developement (which often leads to healthcare providers having to spend more money on new equipement and the like, training and schooling, and God only knows what I am forgetting!!!

But, the point I am making, is that taxpayers are paying for all this fine medical care, but then, well, there is a good chance that if they need it, they will denied access to it.

If our healthcare system is so great, why does the taxpayer have to throw so much money into running it??

And, well,
the lack of insurance it competing for the title of "Third Leading Cause of Death"!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Uninsured Older Adults More Likely to Die Early; Lack of Insurance is Third-Leading Cause of Death
"The risk of early death among uninsured people between age 50 and 64 is 43% higher than it is for people in that age group who have insurance, according to a study in the health policy journal Health Affairs. That could mean that more than 105,000 U.S. residents in that age group will die prematurely in the next eight years because they lack insurance.
The researchers said that if lack of health insurance were categorized as a disease, it would be the third-leading cause of death among the near-elderly, behind heart disease and cancer. They predicted that if policymakers do not work to expand health coverage, the number of unnecessary deaths among adults in that age group could grow to more than 30,000 per year by 2015 as Baby Boomers age."
www.caregivershome.com...
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but, oh, ya, it's the second hand smoke coming from that person's cigarette that's gonna kill you!!!
if our healthcare system was a horse, we'd all be running for a gun to shot it and put it out of it's misery!!!
I think we should just drop all the funding, and watch it collaspe on itself...then we can just go in and pick up the peices....