BUSINESS: America: #22; 49; 54 and Falling Fast

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Christian values are not to be found in the high taxes of welfare secular state, but rather through the works Christians do through their churches and volunteer work.

Christian values is not taking social programs financial support away from War Hero's and those down on their luck and expect them to learn life's lessons and the value of a dollar. These people need help.

Oh and it's also not taking this money away from them and putting it into programs designed to kill and maim your fellow man in a more efficient manner.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 9-3-2005 by drfunk]

Waiting For The Punchline

Originally posted by soficrow
As the writers point out, it would be suicide for any politician to admit the truth: We're broke, in debt and losing the race for progress and prosperity. Life in America is often uncivilized. In many critical categories, our standard of living is barely on par with South Africa and Mexico.

Whenever I see an article like this, I ask myself why it is being posted.

Indeed, what is the point in posting carefully-chosen and “alarming” statistics, other than to promote an agenda?

So the next logical question is: What is the agenda?

You have identified what you see as “big problems”. Okay, fair enough.

What do you suggest we do about them?

The answer to that question will most likely answer the others.

You've pointed out the problems. Fine. What is your solution?



[edit on 3/9/2005 by Majic]

Originally posted by Majic
You've pointed out the problems. Fine. What is your solution?

I realize this question wasn't directed at me, but I hope you don't mind that I give my opinion.

If we can all agree that the continued existence of mankind is in the best interest of mankind, then we need to come together as a species and talk about solutions to the problems we face (as a species).

Right now there is a very limited perspective being encouraged, it's always us against them. Usually this breaks down, at the most basic level, to neighborhood, state, and country rivalries, competition for resources and prestige (to our archaic mind; breeding priviledge).

I propose we refine that into "Us against the Universe."

I realize how haughty that sounds but bear with me...

We might find a solution to any given problem, five or six of us bantering online, but I doubt it. What we need is a modern Alexandria. We need a resurgence of the sort India underwent when it became the center for learning for the world. The goal of that esteemed body should be the furtherance of human intellect, and insurance at all costs against complete extinction.

I believe humanity has once again reached a critical juncture, we now have a collective choice as to how our future will unfold. Most people are too petty (natural) to understand the value in cross country cooperation. Most people worry little about their fellow man, or the mysteries of the universe, or the advancement of science and inteligence.

We are individuals, and our urge to compete often outweighs our species loyalty, that's a problem that needs to be addressed if we are to make progress as a group. The programming was necessary to get us this far, but at the moment it is acting like an anchor, preventing us from making the leap into a new, more evolved existence. (By more evolved, I mean more assured of success)

If we're all happy with things the way they are, with human interactions decided by varying degrees of violence and intimidation, then we might as well go back to the stone age - human behavior has changed very little since then on the grand scale of nations and religions. Comfort should not be the end goal of human existence, but that is what we are taught to strive for. That goal should be knowledge, and the continued existence of the species. Unfortunately that is quite contrary to our programming, anathema to our instinct.

We were designed to be individuals, hell bent on passing on our unique genetic code. There is still some value in that programming, but it is not the end of our potential. We are more than war making monkeys, or at least, we can be.

Then of course there are logistical problems to be considered...

For example: It would be in the best interest of all mankind to consider natural resources the property of the world entire, and not simply booty for the taking. Of course we're talking a global bureaucracy, incredibly inefficient and a collosal waste of time, and in the end it would dissolve into the same sort of political feeding frenzy as the UN suffers from.

What is necessary is a global forum for the exchange of ideas, without the power struggles common in human interactions. This can be accomplished one way and one way only, through sheer force of will.

We are monkeys. We have reptiles clinging to our brain stem. We are a dichotomy, to say the least. That has classically been our greatest weakness, but it can serve us better. If we recognize and admit to ourselves the nature of our existence, we might make more progress on larger issues. I believe humanity suffers from a severe case of tunnel vision. A collective goal, a single, unifying threat (pick one, they're a dime a dozen) perceived fully and universally would do more to better our species than a thousand wars or a million births.

So what if you make ten million dollars and step on all those weaker than you? So what if your children are successful without having to try, and who cares if your sphere of influence stretches from stem to stern across the globe? Will it matter one bit when the sun engulfs our planet? Will it matter one bit when a meteor wipes our earth clean and turns us all to diamond soup? No. It will not matter.

That being said, and easily agreed upon, what is the next logical step in our evolution?

Automation, space travel, preservation of knowledge. Automation reduces the barriers between workers and thinkers, essentially making all workers into thinkers. Space travel insures our survival in the face of global threats; garden ships designed for permanent exploration, sent in a hundred directions, would practically guarantee our survival as a species. Preservation of knowledge would prevent future generations from banging their heads on the same pesky nails in our collective attic called human experience.

America could easily lead the world in these endeavors, we have the potential to be TRULY great. Wouldn't it be a shame to waste that potential because of a sin so simple as greed?

The material I'm broaching would take decades, if not generations, to even partially explore. But the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step..as some wise old dead guy once said.

"You have voted WyrdeOne for the Way Above Top Secret award."

*clap* Well said, globalization is the answer

Taken from my post in the Chinese Human rights thread.

- 44 million Americans live without access to healthcare
- About 15 million children -- one out of every four -- live below the official poverty line.
- Everyday 2,660 children are born into poverty; 27 die because of it.
- Children and families are the fastest growing group in the homeless population, representing 40%.
- Among the 21 most affluent nations, the United States has the highest percentage of poor children.
- While your children die your Government spends $417.4 BILLION on its military in 2003 alone. That makes me physically ill
- 2,030,000 Americans in prison currently (Compared to Chinas 1.51 million) accounting for 22% of the Worlds prison population
- United States is the Worlds number 1 when it comes to private gun ownership where 60% of homocides are gun related.
- Between 16/18,000 civilians killed in Iraq by American Soldiers
- 3,800 Afghan civilians killed between 7 October and 7 December 2001

more facts to ponder
Child Poverty Sources
American Military Budget figure
Sources Prison Population
Iraq body count
BBC News: Afghan Death Toll

Dead Peasants Insurance is just the icing on the cake and a perfect example of how the United States is ran. Companies taking out life insurance on their workers without their permission and cleaning up financially when they die.
Dead Peasants Insurance

Also you might be the richest country in the World but 50% of that wealth is owned by 1% of your population. 75% being owned by the 10%.

So allowing for this and taking the GDP of $10.99 trillion (2003) that would mean the average person would earn slightly over $10,400 a year. Well thats fantastic!
GDP Figures
Distribution of Wealth USA

To be quite honest I dont give a monkeys what happens within the USA. Its when the United States starts interfering with other countries, and my life and prospects that I get up in arms.

Seeing as though the United States is the Number 1 Polluter in the World your decrepid system becomes my business. I dont like how the United States is run and if you'd be so kind as to stop ruining the planet and my life expectancy I'd gladly stop showing you your short comings.

Its heartening to know that people like Soficrow arent content to rest on invisible laurels and are willing to say the Emperor has no clothes. Gather around you ignorant jingoistic fools, theres a true patriot for you!

[edit on 9/3/05 by subz]

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IMPORTANT NOTICE


There seems to be some misunderstanding regarding both the source and motives of this post.

To clarify: I did not "go out of my way" to find these statistics. They are taken from an article recently published in the Austin Chronicle. The article is about US demographics.


Definition: Demographics:

1 : the statistical characteristics of human populations (as age or income) used especially to identify markets
2 : the demographic profile of a market (as the viewers of a TV show).



Demographics studies are done by business and governments. They are used to make a variety of decisions. Most of the studies referred to in the article were done for business, by business. These demographics were and are used by international corporations to make decisions about doing business in the USA.

Sometimes these decisions have to do with deciding what to try and sell in a particular location; sometimes they are used to decide what laws to lobby government to pass, for the benefit of a particular business or industry.

It does not matter whether or not anyone thinks the studies are accurate. These demographics tell us how business looks at the US market. International and other businesses make their decisions about how and where to do business the US based on these demographic studies.

If we can get past our assumptions and presumptions, this information is potentially useful to us. It can help us to understand how business sees us, and why things happen - like why bankruptcy laws are modified and why anti-class action laws are created, for example.


There is more information about US demographics in this book:
America By The Numbers: A Field Guide To The U.S. Population Social Science Data Network


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How many elderly people died in France in the summer of 2003 because they didn't have air conditioners and their children were off enjoying their socialist imposed vacations?

Originally posted by djohnsto77
How many elderly people died in France in the summer of 2003 because they didn't have air conditioners and their children were off enjoying their socialist imposed vacations?

Did you even read the article or the post above? Demographics are about marketing and law-making.


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Originally posted by soficrow
I was born in the USA, and I AM American.

There are many kinds of American's politically speaking, and what this nation stands for is against the kind of America you want, the kind of America that will never be. Hopefully.

Some might find this book helpful or interesting. Titled "America By The
Numbers: A Field Guide To The U.S. Population Social Science Data Network,"
the book helps navigate the maze of US demographic data.

And who's the one navigating us through this maze, this author comes up with many sources, he can pick and choose what to put in there.
I'm sorry but when I read that America's health care system isn't all that great I tend to roll my eyes. Sure it's not "free" or funded by tax payer money they way the EU has it, the healthcare system here obviously has way too much red tape on it, and Pat I would like to solve the puzzle of the types of American's that had a hand in that.
Reform could bring it back to the way it once was, being the world's best health care system and all.

What really turns my balls blue is the fact that reps and dems can't keep their destructive paws off of something that once was so great and beneficial to all, is now just great and beneficial to some. but pricey for all no matter what social class you are in.

And the falling fast part of your post is just the author's take on it because he has a hard on and an agenda, perhaps to keep the european's in their home countries rather then coming here and making it without getting raped by the tax system? There are many reasons and those reasons are behind this author's "take" on the way the US is set up structurally.

I'd rather get my take on the American structure from the Cato Institute, i'm sure they are far more knowledgeable in these areas then this clown.

And grady is right when it comes to America fixing problems such as health care.

Here are a few things that are being worked on trying to get passed through the senate and congress.


Fixed-Dollar Tax Credits and Defined Contribution Alternatives for Health Insurance.

Medical Savings Accounts.
Medicare Reform.
FDA Reform.
E-medicine and Other Health Delivery Advances.
International Comparisons.

Here is the source link: Health Studies in the US

edit: came to fix.

[edit on 9-3-2005 by TrueLies]

Having read the thread I have to congratualte Soficrow on her/his handling of this topic. She/he has taken personal attacks from people unable to refute the data, and rise above it returning to the facts each time.

It appears to me that the first thing that needs to be done is to get the informaton out about the USA's situation. Once the public becomes aware of the hole the USA is falling into the faster people will work out solutions to recover from it.

Sometimes standing on the cliff edge and telling people there is a long drop ahead is enough for a start.

Its hard for some to overcome the socializaton and conditioning one has experienced for their entire life to realise that paradise is really an illusion. I notice that some in the thread respond by just shouting all the louder whilst closing their ears.

Originally posted by Majic
What do you suggest we do about them?

The answer to that question will most likely answer the others.

You've pointed out the problems. Fine. What is your solution?

Originally posted by Netchicken
Having read the thread I have to congratualte Soficrow on her/his handling of this topic. She/he has taken personal attacks from people unable to refute the data, and rise above it returning to the facts each time.

Thanks very much Netchicken. Good to know that my sometimes rather astounding self-restraint is appreciated.

It appears to me that the first thing that needs to be done is to get the informaton out about the USA's situation. Once the public becomes aware of the hole the USA is falling into the faster people will work out solutions to recover from it.

Sometimes standing on the cliff edge and telling people there is a long drop ahead is enough for a start.

....I also think it's a good idea to 'collect intel' from the other side as were, and to know what kind of info they are basing their decisions on.



Again, this is NOT some random collection of arbitrary facts and figures. These are demographics that international corporations use to determine how they will deal with the "US market" - for marketing, investing and influencing law-making.

Industry and business spent good money to fund studies and develop these demographics - and now we've got our hands on their information. ...That's kinda like a gift, dontcha think?


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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
We are individuals, and our urge to compete often outweighs our species loyalty, that's a problem that needs to be addressed if we are to make progress as a group. The programming was necessary to get us this far, but at the moment it is acting like an anchor, preventing us from making the leap into a new, more evolved existence. (By more evolved, I mean more assured of success)

WyrdeOne i just wanted to tell you that i actually really enjoyed your post i thought it was very good and thought provoking, now if you will let me share with you the idealistic differences and commonalities that you and I share.
First you are right progress in humanity does need to continue forward, I commend you for your patriotism. However there are some things you say that i must disagree with, we could never hope to change human nature over night....

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
human behavior has changed very little since then on the grand scale of nations and religions.

I must disagree, while yes we still have gladiators our gladiators no longer fight to the death, if they did public outrage would be huge. Where as before there was public outrage if a gladiator didnt die.

I also believe that you are not looking at the big picture.... You obviously object to the idea of competition and you seem to feel we should suppress these mortal desires of ours, Let me tell you of a group of people that realised many years ago that the suppression of our emotions good or bad would be a horrible mistake. Infact these people had the hindsight of many centuries of history full of different ideals and forms of government. These people were our forefathers. They created this governement and that constitution is very much intact today as it was then. Our forefathers created a government with a knowledge that we sometimes forget, they looked at what worked in the past and what didnt work. Let us take a brief journey back in time and look a just a few of these types of governements


We will start our journey with the greeks, The very first democracies coincedently the very first democracy was created by the spartans not the athenians. Of course the spartans had a somewhat different take on it then the athenians. Now through reading history we could surmise that pro's of democracy is that not too much power is placed with any one person. This is a good thing since we know that a Monarchy or Dictatorship can have some very bad effects and usually the bad far outways the good.
Now the problems with democracy is that in athens it was easily corruptable. However, we also know that the democracy in Sparta far outlasted the democracy in Athens, but why? Well our forefathers were probably asking that very question, you see the democracy in Sparta has a two chamber democracy(sound familiar?) This two chamber democracy seemed to of stemed the corruption of power, interesting thought indeed.
Now what america has is a 3 chamber democracy, this democracy eventually evolved into what we call capitalism. Capitalism in theory is the most vial dispicable form of government one could think of, however in reality it seems to work very well. (the opposite of how communism looks like a good style of government in theory but in reality puts too much power into the hands of too few people). Capitalism takes the worst parts of humanity (greed and such) and regulates it just enough to put it to work for the good of man kind.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
For example: It would be in the best interest of all mankind to consider natural resources the property of the world entire, and not simply booty for the taking. Of course we're talking a global bureaucracy, incredibly inefficient and a collosal waste of time, and in the end it would dissolve into the same sort of political feeding frenzy as the UN suffers from.

What your describing here is more or less communism. Your right it would be a collosal waste of time because it would dissolve much the same way as other communist nations of dissolved.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The material I'm broaching would take decades, if not generations, to even partially explore.

Your right it would take a long time to explore these thoughts but it would be a great disservice to humanity to not let a well tended capitalistic government to take its course through history so that our childrens children can use these lessons when they write the history of this worlds next great empire.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
But the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step..as some wise old dead guy once said.

Thats right but you must look back at lessons past before we can look forward.

Now i am finished with this thought i look forward to your responce on the subject, Also i would like to recommend (and please dont take this as an insult) that you read "The Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx You might actually find that you agree with a lot of what 'ol karl says in his book. (agree'ing with the creator of communism would not neccesarily be a bad thing, but agreeing with him and not trying to understand why he was wrong(or atleast flawed) would be bad)


Interesting site that will give information to the Spartans and their form of democracy www.elysiumgates.com...


[edit on 9-3-2005 by JackJuice]

How To Thoroughly Confuse Me

Originally posted by Netchicken
Its hard for some to overcome the socializaton and conditioning one has experienced for their entire life to realise that paradise is really an illusion. I notice that some in the thread respond by just shouting all the louder whilst closing their ears.

Originally posted by Majic
What do you suggest we do about them?

The answer to that question will most likely answer the others.

You've pointed out the problems. Fine. What is your solution?

I'm confused. You have quoted me, apparently as an example of “shouting all the louder whilst closing their ears”.

Since when does asking questions fall into that category?

I am reasonably curious as to the motives for presenting this information, and I'm a skeptic.

Is that a problem?

Are questions considered a form of personal attack now?

Maybe something changed while I was away and I didn't get the memo, because this is a new concept for me.

Please help me understand what you are trying to say, and for what it's worth, my questions remain unanswered.

sigh ....
I quoted you for the FIRST part of my post. Not the second.

It appears to me that the first thing that needs to be done is to get the informaton out about the USA's situation. Once the public becomes aware of the hole the USA is falling into the faster people will work out solutions to recover from it.

Sometimes standing on the cliff edge and telling people there is a long drop ahead is enough for a start.

Originally posted by Majic
What do you suggest we do about them?

The answer to that question will most likely answer the others.

You've pointed out the problems. Fine. What is your solution?

You were not in my mind for the second part, now come out from underneath that sofa, I'm not going to hit you

[edit on 9-3-2005 by Netchicken]

I am inclined to agree with Majic that the use of his quotation about understanding the forward agenda is non sequitur in your post.

I hope this leads to no international hostilities.

Bottom line is, it was well covered last year at ATS that New Zealand was to be replaced by Niue in trilateral trans-Pacific affairs, to update the ANZUS treaty. (Apologies once more to Niueians).

Perhaps it's important for people of a nation to consider how its natural comparative advantages can be used, and not be so worked up about a super-patriotic nationalistic jingoistic perception of "#1-hood", instead focussing on the actual achievements that have been brought about in so many walks of life and what else there is to be achieved.

as posted by Masked Avatar
I hope this leads to no international hostilities.

I will have to openly admit that the above had me chuckling. *smiling*
Your ability to interject humor of late has been refreshing, especially in a topic such as this.



seekerof

The Briefest Of Commentaries

Originally posted by Netchicken
sigh ....
I quoted you for the FIRST part of my post. Not the second.

For me, anyway, nothing after the quote block is displayed. It did seem odd to me.

If you are seeing anything in your post after where I'm quoted as saying “You've pointed out the problems. Fine. What is your solution?”, then we're seeing different things.

Thus my blustery, indignant and heavily-italicized rhetorical inquiries.

No, I'm Not Coming Out!

Originally posted by Netchicken
You were not in my mind for the second part, now come out from underneath that sofa, I'm not going to hit you

Ha! I'm not underneath the sofa, but an impregnable fort ingeniously constructed from the cushions!

In here, I am invincible! I can post whatever I want! No one can touch me! I can gratuitously overuse italics and no one can stop me!

Anyway, I was mostly confused because I've seen enough of your posts to know that you are no enemy of skepticism.

So, What's MY Agenda?

The short version is that I study Information Warfare. Spend any amount of time doing that, and you'll question everything.

We all engage in Information Warfare whether we recognize it or not. So we may as well admit it, realize that it is neither a good or bad thing, and get on with business.

And lest anyone get the wrong idea, I really am honestly curious as to what motivated soficrow to present this information and start this thread, and what the agenda is.

Having an agenda is not a bad thing, despite erroneous connotations. An agenda is, to paraphrase Merriam's, simply a list or outline of things to be considered or done, or an underlying often ideological plan or program.

Agendas are a necessary prerequisite for accomplishing anything meaningful.

I have an agenda: I want to know the truth as best as I can determine it. In my point of view, anything that helps me do that is a good thing, anything that hinders it is a bad thing.

None of what I'm posting here is intended to impugn soficrow's motives as sinister or malign her scholarship, which is, in my opinion, exceptional.

I just want to know, because knowing will help me better understand something I consider vital to determining that which underlies the details of the topic.

Finally, I also agree that soficrow has handled the thread exceptionally well, which comes as no surprise to me whatsoever.


P.S. As far as I'm concerned, the proper place for humor and levity is anywhere.

WATS for Wyrde from page one!

ALL of you folks are great- what a thread

Even the ones I usually disagree with are kicking in.

When all this demographic analysis is said and done, where are 'we?'

Do we just argue here and postualte or do we do something more?

VOTE

Remember the reps that step on you now and vote againt them in the next election!

The richest businesses 'in America' aren't in America. They use international banks, pay no taxes on their enormous international holdings, support just enough community programs to get their tax breaks on domestic infrastructure maintenance, and generally suck money OUT of America. You have a very simplistic understanding of international business, and it shows.

I already addressed this little claim. If it's true in America, it's true all over the world. You couldn't classify the richest companies as European by this logic, either.

You're actually blaming immigrants for the failure of American kids to read? That takes balls sir. You should consider politics. To be able to stomach that sort of insanity makes you ideally suited to a world where the truth doesn't matter, and the important part is playing to the prejudices of your constituents.

I didn't blame the failure of American kids to read on immigrants. I said that statistics are going to be skewed when you have a good chunk of students coming in from foreign nations with only a little real understanding of our language. There are places in this country where you'll struggle to find people who can, or at least willing to try and speak English.

It's the drugs? Got to be the drugs. Because nobody did drugs in the sixties when literacy rates were at accectable levels. C'mon... If it IS the drugs, it's not the illegal ones, it's the OTC and prescription drugs being prescribed to shut kids up and essentially kill their inquisitive spirit, which can be such a bother to parents on the run... Parents are obviously incapable of raising their own children, so the schools need to step up and do a better job of it.

I happen to think a large portion of kids being born mentally disabled because their parents did crack a big problem. How many crack babies are born every year?

I clearly said Democratic politicians are no better,

You clearly said you prefer Democrats over Republicans.

There's no easy way to say this, so I'm just going to say it; you've been brainwashed. I GUARANTEE that given a week locked in a motel room with a professional deprogrammer, you'd start to understand the error of your ways.

Someone isn't more enlightened because they believe all the bad instead of the good. I'm not brainwashed because I don't act like every little problem is the end of the world. I'm realistic and have common sense.

What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say adults shouldn't be able to make their own decisions? That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I was saying! You think critical thinking is a bad thing? You would rather have a nation full of you's? Well I guess that goes without saying...

You pretty much said people were incapable of making responsible decisions. You seem to push socialist policy. That takes responsibility off people to make their own decisions.

Soficrow is doing her best to encourage a culture of responsibility and learning. You can't say the same. Given the choice between helping others and helping herself she has chosen to help others. Do you think she spends hours typing and researching and debating with the likes of you because of the enormous paycheck?! You aren't fit to judge her, and you're not fit to judge me.

I'm seeing a whole lot of idealistic rhetoric, but not much actual logic here. How exactly is Soficrow helping anyone by showing statistics that Europe is better than America?

If she's trying to help people, she goes about it completely the wrong way.

Are we talking about France? No, we're talking about America, and how to address the problems Americans face. To hell with France! For right now we're worried about America. We're trying to fix American problems. Maybe when we figure out a workable system, we'll export it. Just because your neighbor murders and rapes and exploits the poor doesn't give you the right to! "Well they screwed up, that means we can screw up too..." What sort of backwards- logic is that? If you want to talk about other peoples problems, go somewhere else, we're talking about the future of America. You are cordially not invited.

I said the problem is you ALWAYS focus on America's problems. You never acknowledge any of America's strengths. You can't claim to be fair when you focus on one side, and completely ignore the other. You certainly aren't being fair when you blow issues way out of proportion.

By the way, we are running out of fresh water, and if you cared less about maintaining 'sides' and more about the pursuit of truth, you might have cared enough to check the facts. Due to the enormous amount of precipitation (especially in the Sierra Nevadas) and the early spring expected, this year will be one of the worst droughts on record. Because of simple, petty, human greed, the most plentiful substance on earth will soon be a commodity more expensive than silver.

This is blowing something out of proportion to the point where its ridiculous. You think because you find a few sites on the internet with little credibility saying something you have proof? Or because a few "experts" say its true, it is?

So what if you make ten million dollars and step on all those weaker than you? So what if your children are successful without having to try, and who cares if your sphere of influence stretches from stem to stern across the globe? Will it matter one bit when the sun engulfs our planet? Will it matter one bit when a meteor wipes our earth clean and turns us all to diamond soup? No. It will not matter.

You talk a lot, but say very little. You were asked for solutions, not idealistic rhetoric. You have absolutely no plan for achieving anything you talk about. Very little of it was even coherent.

What you're suggesting is basically what has gotten us to this point to begin with. A whole lot of people talking about matters. Diplomacy and talk achieve little at the end of the day. Of course, we've also been combining economies, and decreasing the number of nations, and the amount of difference between nations. That takes great amounts of time, so most people don't realize that we are heading towards being a single world naturally.

Humanity's ambition, which you carelessly brush off as simple greed, is the only thing that has brought humanity to this point. If there weren't men who had great, and even selfish, ambitions, we'd still be a decentralized bunch of tribes that had progressed very little.

If you don't understand history, you shouldn't talk about the future. You clearly don't know how to bring the world together, or else you would have said how. You have very little understanding of what's happening around you.

Narrowminded people have been saying the same things you are throughout history. It carries very little weight.

DrFunk

Oh and it's also not taking this money away from them and putting it into programs designed to kill and maim your fellow man in a more efficient manner.

It certainly isn't charity to force people to give money towards blowing money on inefficient welfare programs that end up doing more harm then good.

It seems to me that these kind of posts are increasing because of what happened in the last election.

Everyone wordwide was pretty much convinced Bush was a gonner. He'd crossed so many people that you had Frankenstinian visions of lynch mobs with pitch forks and torches. But to everyones dismay he's back in the White House.

Whether or not you choose to believe the vote was legitimate: with thousands of black men and women struck off the electoral role for no reason, voting machines and software made by openly republican companies (negative votes for Kerry in some stations ). The fact remains that a vast swathe of Americans and the World at large are past disenfranchised (that was 2000) they are angry and starting to find ways to show that.

US inquiry into Black Voters in Florida
BlackBoxVoting.org: Investigations into vote rigging

Thats what spurs my agenda Majic

If I was to make some predictions from the sentiment on these boards I'd say that protests and civil unrest will occur in the streets of America sooner rather than later. You can only trample on people for so long before they have nothing left to lose.

Although these protests will see you running foul of the Patriot Act and you could "legally" dissapear it wont deter the millions of Americans who instinctively know something is not right.