The Attack on Pearl Harbor Was One of the Best Things That Could Have Happened

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus



" But you stick with your made up history, it obviously makes you feel better believing conspiracy nonsense. "



Hmm.... ATS . Looks like I came to the Right Place to Discuss that your Majesty ............LOL

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

That's nice, still doesn't address the facts about Midway and the allegedly broken code.

Thanks for playing though, bro, your parting gift today is an education.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus




www.independent.org...



Ok , READ this Book , then come back here and Repeat your Disbelief Once Again Oh Close Minded One.........

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

Try answering the question, the moron who wrote that book didn't answer it either and got caught making things up and getting them wrong.

It gave inspiration, along with 'the Battle of Los Angeles', to one of my favorite Spielberg films.
If you haven't seen this one, give a chance.

a reply to: Mach2

I hear you loud and clear. I am probably just bitching at the wind as I morn the loss of original/unique ideas. The old original/unique ideas have been debated into the ground. I also morn the posting traffic that existed once and hopefully will exist again in the near future.

I wish I had the intelligence and stamina to create those threads I desire to see but alas my apathy is turning into a monster. /off topic a bit/ I recently found Max Igan a few months ago and discovered the unique and original ideas I thought I had created, were already covered extensively by him back long time ago and mostly recorded by 2012. Almost like having a twin.

I just get frustrated and I am not sure how to handle it yet.

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: makemap

originally posted by: JIMC5499
With this being the 78th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I thought that it might be a good time to throw this out here.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was one of the best things that could have happened to the U.S. Navy.

Now, let me explain my reasons for saying this. I spent from 1982 through 1987 in the Navy. My squadron deployed on aircraft carriers. The Navy has a policy of continuing the professional education of it's personnel. One of the main subjects of this is U.S. Naval History. As a result the libraries on Navy bases and on ship have a large selection of reading material. (this was before the Internet) One of those sources are thesis from the Naval Postgraduate School. I read one that was titled "Thank God For Pearl Harbor". I'm going to list some of the reasons in that thesis.

1. The attack saved many lives. If the Japanese wouldn't have attacked Pearl, the Fleet would have gone to the defense of the Philippines. At the time the Japanese Fleet out numbered and out classed the US Fleet. Almost half of the lives lost in the attack came from one battleship, the USS Arizona. Five other battleships were sunk or damaged in the attack, but, the majority of their crews survived, by being able to swim ashore or by being rescued. If the attack hadn't happened the US Fleet would have engaged the Japanese in the open ocean, resulting in a larger loss of life.

2. Four out of the six battleships were able to be salvaged and returned to duty, because of their being sunk in shallow water. Again if the US Fleet had gone after the Japanese Fleet, odds are that they would have been sunk in deep water, with no chance of salvage.

3. The attack changed the doctrine of the US Navy. It forced them to use the forces that they had left. The aircraft carriers and submarines. Prior to the attack, Navy doctrine was to use the carriers and submarines as scouts to locate enemy forces so that they could be engaged by the battleships. Little thought was given to attacking with carriers or using submarines to interdict the enemy's supply lines.

4. The attack forced the US Navy to modernize it's aircraft and tactics. Many planes were destroyed in the attack, but, the pilots and flight crews survived. The few pilots who got into the air found that they were out matched by Japanese fighter aircraft. The Navy was forced to replace it's aircraft with newer models. If the attack hadn't happened they would have gone up against the Japanese in the older aircraft and probably would have lost more pilots and aircrew. This was later proven by how easy the Japanese shot down the aircraft based on Midway during the Battle of Midway.

These are just some things to think about.

No, the biggest mistake Japan ever did was not doing a land invasion after on. Japs have been known to have crap strategies since their war against China. You cannot win a war without a land war.

In all seriousness. The Pearl Harbour attack was to cripple US navy because everyone knows US has been building a massive naval force. They failed.

I don't think you have a real understanding of the Japanese strategy.

Their whole line of reasoning was based on the belief that the US would sue for peace, allowing them free reign in the Asia/Pacific area.

Invading Hawaii would have gone totally against that premise.

Nope, Japan had # strategy. The only reason they got into China easily at the early start is because of Opium wars where Japan had puppet provinces of China thanks to European allies. Any further. You know their strategy was total crap. Took Shanghai like 3 months instead of 3 days.

Chinese puppet

Invading China doesn't make Japan strong, they just got a head start. Technically, Japan was suppose to be an ally with China in the Comintern pact against Soviet. They haven't even touch Soviet territory. Japs are a bunch of back stabbers.

a reply to: makemap Don't forget how much effort Japan was expending in China. 700K dead, near 2 million IJA casualties, 20+ million Chinese dead. The Chinese fought, and lost, but fight on they did. Japan as usual could not admit even to themselves what they had bitten off. Not quite the Eastern Front but the IJA had its hands full and couldn't help the IJN very much. Not to mention the rivalry between the Army and Navy, even worse than ours.

a reply to: JIMC5499

The following point is set to the backdrop of the battleship vs air power debate and excluding the USN's submarine fleet support doctrine. The USN has a proud history of Professional Military Education (PME) in the inter-war period.

Admiral Chester Nimitz, who commanded the joint forces in the war in the Central Pacific, commented on his return to the United States that the war gaming at the Naval War College in Newport and the fleet exercises had enabled the Navy to foresee everything that it would confront in the conflict against the Japanese expect for the Kamikazes.

Extract taken from America and the Future of War: The Past as Prologue by Williamson Murray.

Specifically, the USN's pre-war carrier aviation training and doctrine was appox in effect from Pearl Harbor to The Battle of Midway. The background to these developments is touched upon in The Admirals: Nimitz, Halsey, Leahy, and King--The Five-Star Admirals Who Won the War at Sea.

The USN's aircraft carriers presence at sea during the IJN's famed carrier raid on Pearl Harbor was a happy coincidence of history. Military and political decision makers can't count on such fortunate circumstances in future wars.

originally posted by: TheBoomersRBusted
a reply to: makemap Don't forget how much effort Japan was expending in China. 700K dead, near 2 million IJA casualties, 20+ million Chinese dead. The Chinese fought, and lost, but fight on they did. Japan as usual could not admit even to themselves what they had bitten off. Not quite the Eastern Front but the IJA had its hands full and couldn't help the IJN very much. Not to mention the rivalry between the Army and Navy, even worse than ours.

No, out of those millions are 90% civilian casualties from occupied territory and mass slaughtering of civilians.
If you look at military death compare to Chinese and Japanese. It fare no difference, just proves Japan has really crap strategies over all. Out of all the nations in WW2, China had the best strategies by historic facts, they just lacked the tech because of European oppression since opium war. Hitler didn't give China panzer 3 tanks during the start of war(cominter pact). China had absolutely outdated aircraft til US jumped in for support. We all know Japanese tanks were pretty much garbage. Japan basically annexed and stabbed China in the back even slaughtering civilians in their own puppet territory. If Japs can't even touch Soviet army then they were pretty much useless during that era.

WW2 casualties report

You have to remember before Japan invaded China, China was already in a Civil war.

Hitler biggest mistake was trusting Japan because Japan never even touched the Soviets. Now imagine Tiger tanks for millions of Chinese soldiers coming from the East against soviet bloc. USSR would be doomed instantly.

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: ClovenSky

From the Article ...

Now, though, according to Robert Stinnett, author of Simon & Schuster’s Day Of Deceit, we have the proof. Stinnett’s book is dedicated to Congressman John Moss, the author of America’s Freedom of Information Act. According to Stinnett, the answers to the mysteries of Pearl Harbor can be found in the extraordinary number of documents he was able to attain through Freedom of Information Act requests. Cable after cable of decryptions, scores of military messages that America was intercepting, clearly showed that Japanese ships were preparing for war and heading straight for Hawaii. Stinnett, an author, journalist, and World War II veteran, spent sixteen years delving into the National Archives. He poured over more than 200,000 documents, and conducted dozens of interviews. This meticulous research led Stinnet to a firmly held conclusion: FDR knew.



Sometimes a " Terrible Truth " is Better Off Unsaid ,,,,,,

Cheers for that mate, Hoover knew and by the same token never passed it on, you just can't get by that. Who else 'knew' then I'm not so sure of.

But let's also remember, WW2 was not ultimately a, 'conventional' war either, then or now...except for one thing, the people who paid the highest price played no part in it in a scale without fathom.

I don't think a sneak attack that killed thousands is ever a good thing.

It showed a serious lack of honor by the Japanese, which is just a little ironic.

If it wasn't for Hiroshima and Nagasaki we wouldn't get to enjoy Atomic Fireball Candy.

Win Win?

a reply to: JIMC5499

Now you're thinking like the elite!
the illuminati!
a leader!
a ruler!
a winner!
Now you're thinking like a God!

"You wanna make an omelet. Don't you?? Alright then. STFU." -me as a God, talking to my whiney liberalized by university son

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The First and Second World Wars were full of astrology belief and days were chosen to give a focus to events, Even religious days were used as on 6th August 1945 when the Atom Bomb was dropped.
The feast day of the Transfiguration of Christ is 6th August, in simplicity, Jesus climbs up Mount Tabor with a few disciples, when suddenly he was transformed into a blinding white light, so the disciples had to turn away.
Soon after a large cloud appeared, and from the cloud was heard a voice "This is my son, who i love, listen to him".
It probably is the experience that the Japanese had, a bright light, a huge cloud, before their negative photograph was imprinted into the pavement.
I wonder what 33 degree mason and president Harry Truman had in his mind as his "Little Boy" bomb dropped to Earth?
I'm not keen on this type of symbolism, or playing God.
www.allaboutjesuschrist.org...

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: JIMC5499

The Attack on Pearl Harbor Was One of the Best Things That Could Have Happened

And so was the atom bomb.

SARC

Had the US not entered the war due to pearl harbour - though the US president was already doing everything he could to help the British short of attacking the Germans outright and also placing crippling sanctions and embargoes on Japan which actually drove them to attack the US as a result instead of pulling out of China as the US had intended.

Then the US would NOT have been given the British nuclear research, materials and scientists it needed to complete the Manhattan project.

There are claim's that the British knew about the impending attack and did not tell the US but other claim's that they did but the US took no notice of the information, still other more informed claim's that in fact this story about the British already knowing was bogus and invented by some writers long after the war was over.

The US ship's despite being steel hulled had some serious design flaws at the start of the war such as wooden deck's on some of them which were a serious liability.

But by the end of the war the US left as the world undisputed new and only remaining super power while the soviet union whom had lost the most people of any nation in the war - except perhaps China whose true death toll can only be estimated at best were the most powerful land based military power in the world, the atomic bomb held them at bay though it has widely been seen by analysts as a mistake to have made them the enemy after the war since the cold war need never have happened despite our ideological and political differences, still Stalin was pretty much as bad as Hitler and Mao was just as bad as Stalin (though it has to be said in Stalin's defence he at least was not a sexual deviant - or was he while Mao and Hitler were, Hitler liked woman pissing on his face and had an incestuous relationship with his own niece after having her boyfriend assassinated and she committed suicide to get away from him while Mao as part of recommended Chinese medicine had busloads of young Chinese girl's brought to his house to abuse them since his Chinese traditional doctor had said it would treat his syphilis) so it is understandable why the west feared Stalin's despotic regime.

From a stand point Pearl Harbour as a tragedy but from perspective it was a necessary wake up call to the US or else they would have found themselves surrounded by powerful enemy's and in time been invaded by these enemy's once they had the time to consolidate there new positions of power, eventually though the German's would have gone to war with the Japanese especially since Hitler believed the young needed strife to stay strong.

As for the bomb, if not for some Norwegian resistant fighters and British commando's the NAZI's would have had the atomic bomb first - we in Britain were more advanced in our research but due to the stranglehold on our resources and at any time only being two week's away from defeat if the Nazi's managed to cut off our supplies our research had been slowed down at best and put on hold at worst, though you know there is a claim that the German's already detonated one, why they did not then implement them is anyone's guess but I would suggest some unknown heroes in the form of the scientists forced to work on the program whom probably then sabotaged it instead of giving the Nazi's that power.

news.bbc.co.uk...

There is even a rumour that there may actually be several completed Nazi bomb's lost in there buried bunkers around Europe or that they did manage to establish a foothold in Antarctica and may have smuggled them or at least some of there nuclear research there perhaps only to then be attacked by the US in operation high jump and after that mission was forced to retreat later destroyed by a surgical special forces strike and planting a real US nuke in the tunnels near to there base since there was a mysterious seismic event that originated far below the ice of Antarctica about a year after the High Jump operation was forced to flee.
(or the Nazi's in Antarctica destroyed there own base and relocated to south America probably brokering a truce and protection deal with the US as an extension of operation Paper Clip?)

And no I am not towing the official high jump story there I just don't believe that you would send a full battle group, carrier, destroyers and a submarine for a scientific mission to Antarctica and also then lose at least one destroyer just a little over a year after the end of hostility's in Europe and the pacific especially with the already ratcheting up of the cold war rhetoric of the period.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
The US ship's despite being steel hulled had some serious design flaws at the start of the war such as wooden deck's on some of them which were a serious liability.

What ships are you referring to?

a reply to: LABTECH767

Awesome post LABTECH.

lose at least one destroyer just a little over a year after the end of hostility's in

I don't believe I've heard of this before we lost a destroyer?

a reply to: makemap Agreed, not clearly put I guess but I meant 700K was the Japanese military losses in China, which was a lot for them. And million+ Japanese troops there, winning or not they were fighting, occupying, and costing money, and were too busy to go the Pacific War. Point being, for all the many reasons, the China war took a big effort from Japan, hobbling their Pacific fight.

Mistakes all over? you betcha!
I wonder, what if all sides did everything 'right' ?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus Many of our early aircraft carriers had wood decks. Not sure why.