Convince me to vote Democrat

a reply to: underwerks

So you are okay with giving more money, more power, more authority to a corrupt government, and you expect to benefit by giving all that to a corrupt entity.


Uhhhhhhh. . . . . . 'kay.

a reply to: underwerks

Thank you ! I appreciate the effort. But, taking New York, California and Illinois as examples, what happens when you start taxing the wealthy and corporations ? Answer : They Move... and they take their money and businesses with them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for them paying their fair share, but to put this on a personal level, let say : you own a business. The city you live in decides to increase you taxes by quite a bit. The next town over says "Hey, we'll not only tax you at a lower rate, we'll even give you incentives to move your business here and even help build your factory"
What do you do ? You Move....and you take all the jobs with you.
Which I expect corporations in the US to do. Mexico, Canada, Europe are going to offer tax havens for these folks and they are going to flock to it, leaving the middle class [ you and me ] holding the bag.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

So you are okay with giving more money, more power, more authority to a corrupt government, and you expect to benefit by giving all that to a corrupt entity.


Uhhhhhhh. . . . . . 'kay.

And you believe making that same government weaker allowing it to be exploited by companies and the richest people is somehow going to make it less corrupt..

Mmkay..

We pay for our government. Every one of us do. I'd rather try to make it work for the people than just giving up and throwing it down the toilet. Resigning it to be corrupt.

a reply to: underwerks

That is false. Even if you taxed the 1 percenters at an 80% tax rate, it still wouldn't pay for "medicare for all", let alone the rest of his plans.

Pure propaganda.

If you want proof, look no farther than this weeks Elizabeth Warren 52 trillion dollar healthcare plan.

Every economiat, on both sides, say the numbers just aren't there, and that's just one program.

That's not even mentioning the damage to the economy, and jobs lost, which even she admits is certain.

Get out of the "echo chamber", and please use some common sense. Look at actual studies on these things, and question things until you verify them. I know it takes effort, but it's better than following someone blindly over a cliff.

a reply to: DAVID64

I can’t give you a good reason based on the two criteria pointed out.

Best I can offer is to vote Democrat so their percentages do not fall below the minimum requirements for automatic inclusion on the next ballot. Most states would require twice the signatures on a petition to be placed on the ballot so that might be hard to accomplish without automatic inclusion.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: underpass61
a reply to: underwerks

Fair enough, I'll take an honest look.

If you're one of those people who only care about what you get personally (screw you I got mine) than you're better off just staying with Trump. He isn't going to do anything for you, but he'll stand at a podium and say he is. That seems to be enough for you guys.

I understand what you're saying here, but can you show me where Trump's policies have screwed anyone? I mean where they have specifically made things worse for someone. His policies have lifted my industry (manufacturing/aerospace) and quite literally saved my business and many others, providing good paying jobs for a lot of needy people. Of course that's not everyone, but it's more people doing better than before. I can't see how that's a negative.

Sure. Under Trump, farmers are taking a hit more than anyone. Which has affected my family drastically. Farmer bankruptcies are up 24% under Donald Trump.

Link

And what this is leading to is small farmers and farms being squeezed out. If we continue this course there will be barely any family or small farms in our future. Just mega-corporation factory farms. So more unhealthy, expensive crap we're being fed. And it doesn't have to be like that.

I will defer to your experience here, but he is signing subsidy bills to help. I can only speculate that it's not enough or going to the wrong people, which would be bad I agree.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: underpass61
a reply to: underwerks

Fair enough, I'll take an honest look.

If you're one of those people who only care about what you get personally (screw you I got mine) than you're better off just staying with Trump. He isn't going to do anything for you, but he'll stand at a podium and say he is. That seems to be enough for you guys.

I understand what you're saying here, but can you show me where Trump's policies have screwed anyone? I mean where they have specifically made things worse for someone. His policies have lifted my industry (manufacturing/aerospace) and quite literally saved my business and many others, providing good paying jobs for a lot of needy people. Of course that's not everyone, but it's more people doing better than before. I can't see how that's a negative.

Bailouts for the industries that Trump has screwed are reaching$39 Billion and rising. I would think that people who care about their taxes wouldn't be happy about having to pay that.

Bailouts aren't new, and laying all the blame on Trump is unfair to say the least. That's still only half as much as the
auto industry bailout cost us. Would it be fair for me to lay all the blame on Obama for that one?

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

So you are okay with giving more money, more power, more authority to a corrupt government, and you expect to benefit by giving all that to a corrupt entity.


Uhhhhhhh. . . . . . 'kay.

And you believe making that same government weaker allowing it to be exploited by companies and the richest people is somehow going to make it less corrupt..

Mmkay..

We pay for our government. Every one of us do. I'd rather try to make it work for the people than just giving up and throwing it down the toilet. Resigning it to be corrupt.

No, I don't.

Our government is corrupt, no amount of anything we can do will make it less so, but what I can do is resist encouraging the corruption.

You want to feed the corruption because you will benefit from it.

You are just as selfish as those you deride, in my humble opinion.

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: underwerks

Thank you ! I appreciate the effort. But, taking New York, California and Illinois as examples, what happens when you start taxing the wealthy and corporations ? Answer : They Move... and they take their money and businesses with them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for them paying their fair share, but to put this on a personal level, let say : you own a business. The city you live in decides to increase you taxes by quite a bit. The next town over says "Hey, we'll not only tax you at a lower rate, we'll even give you incentives to move your business here and even help build your factory"
What do you do ? You Move....and you take all the jobs with you.
Which I expect corporations in the US to do. Mexico, Canada, Europe are going to offer tax havens for these folks and they are going to flock to it, leaving the middle class [ you and me ] holding the bag.

That depends. If I was a multi billionaire I doubt I would care what I was taxed. Not everyone is like me, I get that.

You're effectively saying we shouldn't tax billion dollar corporations because they'll find a way to dodge it. To me, that's crap. Do we let bank robbers get away because they're going to try to get away? These companies have to be reigned in, for the betterment of society. That's just what has to happen.

The level of income inequality we're dealing with isn't sustainable. We as a country need to stop letting companies above a certain level loot America and hoard the wealth.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: gortex

Shouldn't we (as voters) be concerned about policies and plans instead of superficial nonsense like they appear pleasant?

Might as well vote for someone because they have "nice boobs".

Tulsi? I'm just guessing, the rest of her looks good.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

So you are okay with giving more money, more power, more authority to a corrupt government, and you expect to benefit by giving all that to a corrupt entity.


Uhhhhhhh. . . . . . 'kay.

And you believe making that same government weaker allowing it to be exploited by companies and the richest people is somehow going to make it less corrupt..

Mmkay..

We pay for our government. Every one of us do. I'd rather try to make it work for the people than just giving up and throwing it down the toilet. Resigning it to be corrupt.

No, I don't.

Our government is corrupt, no amount of anything we can do will make it less so, but what I can do is resist encouraging the corruption.

You want to feed the corruption because you will benefit from it.

You are just as selfish as those you deride, in my humble opinion.

I'm sorry. I don't share your cynical view of what is possible with government. You've resigned yourself to that fate because you've completely given up.

You do realize that when you fight to make government smaller, you're only opening it up to exploitation by people who are even more corrupt than what it already is..

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

You are exactly right. I live in rural America and you can't walk a block before you see farmland. I know a lot of them because I grew up in the area. The ones that didn't sell out to corporate farms are only doing it as a hobby or supplemental income. My brother-in-law and nephew-in-law are two of them.

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

Make all the excuses you want for the crap policies of the current administration. The numbers don't lie.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

So you are okay with giving more money, more power, more authority to a corrupt government, and you expect to benefit by giving all that to a corrupt entity.


Uhhhhhhh. . . . . . 'kay.

And you believe making that same government weaker allowing it to be exploited by companies and the richest people is somehow going to make it less corrupt..

Mmkay..

We pay for our government. Every one of us do. I'd rather try to make it work for the people than just giving up and throwing it down the toilet. Resigning it to be corrupt.

No, I don't.

Our government is corrupt, no amount of anything we can do will make it less so, but what I can do is resist encouraging the corruption.

You want to feed the corruption because you will benefit from it.

You are just as selfish as those you deride, in my humble opinion.

I'm sorry. I don't share your cynical view of what is possible with government. You've resigned yourself to that fate because you've completely given up.

You do realize that when you fight to make government smaller, you're only opening it up to exploitation by people who are even more corrupt than what it already is..

Your view is exactly what's wrong with our government. It was never intended to be the behemoth it has become and our founders were trying very hard to keep corruption OUT of it because they saw it in England. Despite your best attempts to convince everyone that you are right, you are as far from right as you can get. Small government, doing what it was designed to do and nothing else, limits the potential for corruption. Since you don't believe that nothing anyone else says can change your mind. Just know that you are indeed incorrect.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

So you are okay with giving more money, more power, more authority to a corrupt government, and you expect to benefit by giving all that to a corrupt entity.


Uhhhhhhh. . . . . . 'kay.

And you believe making that same government weaker allowing it to be exploited by companies and the richest people is somehow going to make it less corrupt..

Mmkay..

We pay for our government. Every one of us do. I'd rather try to make it work for the people than just giving up and throwing it down the toilet. Resigning it to be corrupt.

No, I don't.

Our government is corrupt, no amount of anything we can do will make it less so, but what I can do is resist encouraging the corruption.

You want to feed the corruption because you will benefit from it.

You are just as selfish as those you deride, in my humble opinion.

I'm sorry. I don't share your cynical view of what is possible with government. You've resigned yourself to that fate because you've completely given up.

You do realize that when you fight to make government smaller, you're only opening it up to exploitation by people who are even more corrupt than what it already is..

And you accept and acknowledge that you want to make a corrupt government bigger and more authoritarian because you will benefit from it.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

Make all the excuses you want for the crap policies of the current administration. The numbers don't lie.

And once again you are wrong. The policies of our current president are what has made the last couple of years the best our country has seen in a very long time. Yes, the trade wars are hurting SOME farmers, but once they dust settles they will be better for it. Again, I live in the middle of farm country and know small-time farmers, they're not hurting the way you think they are. The media is distorting the problem, like always.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

Make all the excuses you want for the crap policies of the current administration. The numbers don't lie.

The numbers say in 2011, under the Obama administration, that farm bankruptcies were higher than under trump in 2019.

Yep. Numbers don't lie.

Obama bankrupted more farmers..

580...trump 2019
676...obama 2011

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

Make all the excuses you want for the crap policies of the current administration. The numbers don't lie.

These issues have been around for generations, blaming one man for destroying small farms (in three short years no less!), is as unrealistic as putting your hopes in one man (Bernie) to fix it.

originally posted by: HalWesten

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: underwerks

Dude, I live in corn central Indiana..
The farm issues you're talking about have been happening for decades.
Trumps policies are not causing these issues.

They're exacerbating them. Badly. His tariffs are squeezing out small farmers left and right. You can't look at the data and think otherwise.

I have to assume you know nothing about the industry.

The small family farm is, for the most part, a thing of a bygone era. They were squeezed out a long time ago.

Sure, some still exist, but they are not the backbone of food production they used to be. Most profitable operations are run like corporations, with employees, capital investment strategies, accountants, and unfortunately lawyers.

It's the 21st century my friend.

You are exactly right. I live in rural America and you can't walk a block before you see farmland. I know a lot of them because I grew up in the area. The ones that didn't sell out to corporate farms are only doing it as a hobby or supplemental income. My brother-in-law and nephew-in-law are two of them.

Exacty. I grew up in rural Michigan a couple decades ago, and actually worked in the fields as a teen. They were vanishing before my eyes back then.

It was a bid sad that farms that had been in families for several generations were no longer able to be competitive.

The reality is that's the cost of progress. Americans enjoy a huge variety of low cost food because of the efficiency of larger farming enterprises.

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: DAVID64

Bernie:

Federal Legalization of Cannabis

Affordable health care for all

Expanding social security

Tuition free college

Revitalizing rural areas

Affordable housing for all

Eliminating all past due medical debt

Ending private prisons

Ending the war on drugs

Revitalizing our education system

Overturning Citizens United

and more..

If you're one of those people who only care about what you get personally (screw you I got mine) than you're better off just staying with Trump. He isn't going to do anything for you, but he'll stand at a podium and say he is. That seems to be enough for you guys.

I wanted to add that I'd be more convinced if that wish list was maybe 80% shorter. The problem with promising something to everyone is that usually nobody gets anything.