Where's the evidence that life needed to start and didn't always exist?

Abiogenesis is based on the assumption that life somehow evolved from non life. This is just an assumption with no basis in fact.

The more likely scenario is panspermia and that life has always existed. We know life doesn't just mean conscious human life. We find life surviving in some of the harshest and craziest environments with extremophiles.

Extremophiles and Extreme Environments

Over the last decades, scientists have been intrigued by the fascinating organisms that inhabit extreme environments. Such organisms, known as extremophiles, thrive in habitats which for other terrestrial life-forms are intolerably hostile or even lethal. They thrive in extreme hot niches, ice, and salt solutions, as well as acid and alkaline conditions; some may grow in toxic waste, organic solvents, heavy metals, or in several other habitats that were previously considered inhospitable for life. Extremophiles have been found depths of 6.7 km inside the Earth’s crust, more than 10 km deep inside the ocean—at pressures of up to 110 MPa; from extreme acid (pH 0) to extreme basic conditions (pH 12.8); and from hydrothermal vents at 122 °C to frozen sea water, at −20 °C. For every extreme environmental condition investigated, a variety of organisms have shown that they not only can tolerate these conditions, but that they also often require those conditions for survival.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Here's more on panspermia:

Plant seeding and panspermia

The first detection of an interstellar asteroid/comet-like object visiting the Solar system two years ago has sparked ideas about the possibility of interstellar travel. New research from the Technion–Israel Institute of Technology suggests that such objects also raise far reaching implications about the origins of planets across the galaxy, and possibly even the initial formation of the Solar system itself.

phys.org...

K2-18b: every habitable planet surely has life

www.theguardian.com...

Could Life on Earth Have Come from Another Star System?

www.space.com...

New Harvard Study ‘Galactic Panspermia’ Posits Transfer of Life Between Planets

www.thecrimson.com...

The problem here is, there has always been this assumption that life had to start. So you take that crazy assumption and then you have to explain how non life magically evolved into complex life.

a reply to: neoholographic

planetary seeding is a very possible scenario... many scientists believe that water came from else where in the solar system... thus the requirements for life to evolve also likely came from else where...

We know the planet was bombarded by icy meteors... but there was also a time when this planet didn't exist...

it was nothing more then a rocky ball, which was eventually covered in molten rock because of said bombardment

So... life didn't always exist here...

life had to start somewhere, where and when are not really important to us because we could never know for sure anyway. Life could have come here from distant stars, it could have been in rocks from blown apart planets. It could have got here many ways. Growing if the conditions are right. Now DNA interacts with frequencies to form life, the right conditions need to exist. Different frequencies, different expression of the DNA.

Evolution has been happening ever since life arrived at this world. But it could have originated way longer than it started here. People should understand, it may be interesting to contemplate how things formed, but we will never know for sure. I will not believe in people saying theories are reality, because noone could possibly know how things started. It does not really matter if people believe, but shoving something down someone's throat and forcing them to parrot something that could be wrong is not right. I will not say they are wrong, but will not believe the theory of evolution is correct till I see more proof that is real, most of the evidence of how things came to be pushed as real nowadays is just spectulation and theories with cherry picked evidence to support it. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. I will just keep saying I do not know what happened and that nobody else really does either.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: neoholographic

planetary seeding is a very possible scenario... many scientists believe that water came from else where in the solar system... thus the requirements for life to evolve also likely came from else where...

We know the planet was bombarded by icy meteors... but there was also a time when this planet didn't exist...

it was nothing more then a rocky ball, which was eventually covered in molten rock because of said bombardment

So... life didn't always exist here...

Life evolved out of molten rock?

originally posted by: JON666

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: neoholographic

planetary seeding is a very possible scenario... many scientists believe that water came from else where in the solar system... thus the requirements for life to evolve also likely came from else where...

We know the planet was bombarded by icy meteors... but there was also a time when this planet didn't exist...

it was nothing more then a rocky ball, which was eventually covered in molten rock because of said bombardment

So... life didn't always exist here...

Live evolved out of molten rock?

no...

life likely came from icy asteroids bootin around the solar system, smashing into the earth...

probably talking after the molten rock period...

a reply to: neoholographic

Life created by the so called big bang. If the big bang created the atoms & elements, why not life too?

Sounds more reasonable than life just sprang into existence from rocks and water.

Great thread OP.

a reply to: Akragon

You stated that icy asteroids were smashing the earth at such a rate that the crust was molten rock. How did this life survive on this molten rock?

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: Akragon

You stated that icy asteroids were smashing the earth at such a rate that the crust was molten rock. How did this life survive on this molten rock?

said icy material would have evaporated, then condensed in the atmosphere and rained back down on the planet... not only cooling it, but spreading whatever material was in the water ice

this could have happened during the molten period, but its more likely to have happened afterward...

I don't personally know of anything that can live in molten rock... but theres plenty of bacteria that can live in water droplets

a reply to: neoholographic

Panspermia doesn't really explain how life started, only that it may have arrived here from somewhere else, rather than abiogenisis happening on this planet.

It still "srarted" somewhere, at some point in time, in so much as humans are actually able understand the concept of "time".

We have a lot of theories about big bangs, singularities before said big bang, spacetime, etc.

None of them completely explains things to my satisfaction, because they invariably lead to more questions.

The universe is a wonderous place, and I don't know if we have evolved to the point of being able to comprehend it.

It does make for interesting discussion, until it inevitably flames out in debate about a grand creator v evolution.

originally posted by: neoholographic
Abiogenesis is based on the assumption that life somehow evolved from non life. This is just an assumption with no basis in fact.

You're right. It's a hypothesis. There is no proof of life starting in any manner, nobody has witnessed this through intelligent design or spontaneously so far.

That is not to say we will not witness it eventually, we just have a very, very small sample to observe. If life came out of nothing, it did so in a petri dish literally the size of a planet and as deep as the ocean. And it took a billion years of changing environment.

If we were to have every scientist and every lab on the planet run an experiment and have their whole facilities plastered with petri dishes of material, it would be an infinitesimal fraction of the planet as a dish. And if we ran it for a 100 years it would be a fraction of the time it may have taken.

It may happen tomorrow, or we may never see it. We are just not equipped for this sort of testing at this moment.

Maybe we'll simulate it in a supercomputer this century, though.

a reply to: Oraculi

Excellent points, particularly running simulations in a quantum computer.

Oddly enough, I was reading another thread about a goggle quantum computing experiment earlier today, and was speculating on possible uses of that technology.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: Akragon

You stated that icy asteroids were smashing the earth at such a rate that the crust was molten rock. How did this life survive on this molten rock?

said icy material would have evaporated, then condensed in the atmosphere and rained back down on the planet... not only cooling it, but spreading whatever material was in the water ice

this could have happened during the molten period, but its more likely to have happened afterward...

I don't personally know of anything that can live in molten rock... but theres plenty of bacteria that can live in water droplets

As you stated the asteroids were so frequent that the earths crust was molten. How did life survive on theses rocks plummeting into the molten earth? If any life survived it then evaporated into rain clouds? How many rain clouds have life in them today? It would seem this would be a repeatable natural occurrence today just like life from rocks.

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
a reply to: neoholographic

Life created by the so called big bang. If the big bang created the atoms & elements, why not life too?

Sounds more reasonable than life just sprang into existence from rocks and water.

Great thread OP.

That doesn't answer it : (

What was before the big bang? Another universe? Then you could theorize that there was life in that other universe and by some mechanism we don't know it managed to go through the previous universe and into this on

Which then continues with the same question, when did it start for the first time?

a reply to: neoholographic

Well who the heck knows ?

Like this infamous quote from Voltaire, that is maybe true, of maybe totally fabricated:

"I cannot dream that this watch exists and has no watchmaker! But that's what it says on the back of the watch, so I obviously don't know jack-# about how they make watches."

Sourceish

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
a reply to: neoholographic

Life created by the so called big bang. If the big bang created the atoms & elements, why not life too?

Sounds more reasonable than life just sprang into existence from rocks and water.

Great thread OP.

Exactly!

There's no evidence life started.

This is just a materialists pipe dream. It says non life magically evolved into life. There's not a shred of evidence that supports this.

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
a reply to: neoholographic

Life created by the so called big bang. If the big bang created the atoms & elements, why not life too?

Sounds more reasonable than life just sprang into existence from rocks and water.

Great thread OP.

Exactly!

There's no evidence life started.

This is just a materialists pipe dream. It says non life magically evolved into life. There's not a shred of evidence that supports this.

Déjà vu!

And i told you to look at my previous answer and you said it was not proof or something?

Did that happened before? Hmmmmmm

originally posted by: neoholographic

The problem here is, there has always been this assumption that life had to start. So you take that crazy assumption and then you have to explain how non life magically evolved into complex life.

If you turn non life into a 6 sided dice, and pretend one of the numbers equal life. According to probability we would get life if tossed infinitely.

Where is the evidence that pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster haven't always existed? If one can't articulate any, does that mean it's a valid proposition that pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster have always existed?

Can you see which road you're going down when using this type of reasoning? If you can't, maybe South Park can help, see the argument at 0:15:

a reply to: whereislogic

You said:

Where is the evidence that pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster haven't always existed? If one can't articulate any, does that mean it's a valid proposition that pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster have always existed?

The difference is, there's no evidence that pink unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters exist. I thought these illogical examples weren't used any more. I haven't heard them in years.

We do know life exists and the people who want to claim life started and didn't always exist has to show evidence that life had to start. It's their claim if they believe that non life magically evolved into life.

So it's nothing like some pink unicorn, which is the oldest pseudoskeptic tactic in the book. If I had a dollar every time pseudoskeptics mentioned pink unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters, I would be rich.

You can't just say life had to start without any evidence.

There's the origin of life and the origin of life on earth. The origin of life on earth is Abiogenesis and it's a fantasy. We know the origin of life can occur outside of earth because we find the building blocks of life in comets, meteorites and space dust.

Building Blocks of DNA Found in Meteorites from Space

The components of DNA have now been confirmed to exist in extraterrestrial meteorites, researchers announced.

A different team of scientists also discovered a number of molecules linked with a vital ancient biological process, adding weight to the idea that the earliest forms of life on Earth may have been made up in part from materials delivered to Earth the planet by from space.

www.space.com...

So the origin of life would be found in the initial conditions of the universe which bring together these building blocks of life that don't need to be generated on earth just like they bring together stars, comets, planets and more.

When time doesn't even exist, there cannot be a 'start' point, nor an 'end' point.