Portable General Electric XM214 Minigun

Originally posted by Solarity
Dont the Chinese have a 2 man portable 3 barrle .50cal gun? Sure I saw a pic of one somewhere..

An old mate told me the chinese have a commando minigun that is held like a rifle/GPMG not like a chainsaw like in the movies, not sure if he is right

There is a new film coming out called 'aeon flux' and i seen a clip where there was a hand held minigun looking thing

Wonder if its the one?

Just a tought you might want to use either revolver mechanism, or Ghast barrel recoil system.

Both can be tuned to operate at 2000-3000 rnds/min and since you only have 1 or 2 barrels you'll save a lot of weight...

Revolver MG Mauser BK27


Barrel recoil gun Gsh23





[edit on 24-2-2006 by northwolf]

Necroposting at its finest

There is no way with current technology to make a reasonable one-man portable multibarrel MG. The Chinese certainly dont have a "shoulder fired 3 barrel 12.7mm MG", and Aeon Flux is a Fantasy film just like Predator.

Moreover, the whole concept is idiotic. There are exactly two uses for fast-firing multibarrel or revolver guns: On aircraft and air defense because the "window of opportunity" to fire is extremely short, and on helicopters because they are manually aimed and/or intended for large area effect (they cant be shot precisely from the moving helicpter anyway).

Any handheld chaingun design would have to be dumbed down so much that it loses its advantage, even when used from an exoskeleton of contemporary technology. For exoskeletons a better approach would be to use a regular fast firing (1000-1200 RPM) MG with a "3 barrel revolver array", so that if one barrel is shot hot, the operator could turn the revolver via a simple action to use the next barrel.

No batteries, no bulky volume, no external moving parts.

@northwolf: The BK27 is an excellent gun (it was once considered as cannon for the JSF), but one grenade weighs over 600 grams

[edit on 24/2/2006 by Lonestar24]

600g isn't a much....
At least to a grunt

but i posted it as an example, it would have to be re-chambered for infantry use...

But to be honest 1000rpm is a max rate for bipod mouned weapon, 800 is sufficent for all uses...
My experience of MG rates of fire is: 1000rpm from 7.62x39 is nice to fire (Finnish KVKK62), 800rpm in 7.62x58 is still controllable from bipod or shoulder (for short burts at least with PKM) 12.7 Russian at 800rpm is NONONO without a heavy supported Tripod (I've never tried one without tripod, but NSVT feels like its going to rip apart even a vehicle mount...)

Cant be done today in any practical way. What you didnt see in the Predator was the hidden power cord running up Jesse's leg. Even the monster of a man that was Jesse Ventura couldnt carry the entire rig battery included.

200 rounds of 5.56NATO weighs 6.25 pounds without links. A minigun can fire 6000 rds a min so to even give you a single min of fire time would require 187.5 pounds of pure ammo weight not including links or the backpack to carry the ammo.

Jesse also had none of the vital non weapon combat load to deal with which make up a tremndous amount of weight already. Body armour, Food, Water etc, etc........

The M60 gunner is always the slowest guy in a unit. Slowing down the whole unit and that aint nothing compared to carrying around a minigun rig. A person armed with a mini gun would not be able to move and would be better left back at base or mounted on a chopter.


Perhaps it could be done with exoskeletons in the future but even then I would rather carry a Ma Duce .50 cal if I could carry amazing amounts of weight.

Looks cool in movies and video games though

[edit on 24-2-2006 by ShadowXIX]

Just a thought or two...Im no expert on this particular system, just thought I'd chip in. Please do not flame me if this is a stupid post. There are so many eminently intelligent folks in this forum, and I have a lot of respect, but it seems every time I open my mouth around here what I get is, "that's one dumb idea".

1) The rate of fire of a weapon of this type compared to the weight of ammunition needed for any practical area-suppression mission would necessarily dictate a cartridge smaller and lighter than 5.56mm, logistics notwithstanding. If this is accepted as a "given", the concept is still very much viable. I suggest the .22 WMR (magnum rimfire). As a one-shot knockdown cartridge, probably not; as an area suppression round at 3000 rpms, you bet. Spray at a rate of 3000 rounds per minute of even this small cartridge downrange in a ten-second burst, and your boys could probably do bounding-overwatch for a good ways until the minigunner relocated to his next firing position.

2) I'd thought about a return to Richard Gatling's original method of powering the weapon - manually, with an ammo-bearer/loader/spotter turning a crank attached to the weapon by a flexible steel "worm"...this is impractical for several reasons which I'm sure you can imagine. Now, if the weapon could be made blowback- or gas-operated, that's a whole 'nother can of beans. On the other hand, a rotary-barreled weapon of this smaller caliber would require less battery power, and smaller batteries, than the full-sized 5.56mm. It may be feasible to design a half-blowback-or-gas, half-electrical drive system to reduce battery power need even further.

This concept seems valuable for area-suppression; if one accepted it'd be crew-served, it's feasible in my opinion. As a single-soldier weapon it'd fly with a smaller cartridge and blowback/gas operation augmented by lighter batteries than are required for the (already-developed) 5.56mm minigun. The "recoilless" ammunition idea is also very good, but would make the weapon more bulky, what with a blast tube or sheath at the back of it to keep the gunner from frying his own leg off from the backblast.

I am very pleased to post here in this august forum. Thank you.

[edit on 29-3-2006 by Dyno25000]

We should stop spending money and research on killing machines, and use our resources toward free energy, food production and things that benefit mankind. But that's my opinion.

Oh what a goody too shoes.....

I agree somewhat, but ummmm chain-guns are cool : )

Anyway, about the weight problem as rounds get fired (due to the fast rate of fire) less will have to be carryed. So one problem solves the other.

Originally posted by jazz_psyker
Oh what a goody too shoes.....

I agree somewhat, but ummmm chain-guns are cool : )

Anyway, about the weight problem as rounds get fired (due to the fast rate of fire) less will have to be carryed. So one problem solves the other.

Just to be exact, the term "chaingun" indicates that the weapon is externally driven. It still can have only one barrel. The thread however is about multibarrel cannons/MGs, which do not necessarily need an external motor.

Of course the more rounds are fired, the lighter the load will be. This is however absolutely theoretical since on a majority of patrols not a single shot is fired, and even on deployments with enemy contact 99% of the whole time there wont be any shooting. The gunner still has to carry the ammo load around.

Originally posted by Dyno25000
...There are so many eminently intelligent folks in this forum, and I have a lot of respect, but it seems every time I open my mouth around here what I get is, "that's one dumb idea".

Well, as long as you try to add to the discussion respectfully and with a somewhat backed opinion, noone is justified to attack you. You can however be disproven, and sadly thats what I´m gonna do

1) The rate of fire of a weapon of this type compared to the weight of ammunition needed for any practical area-suppression mission would necessarily dictate a cartridge smaller and lighter than 5.56mm, logistics notwithstanding. If this is accepted as a "given", the concept is still very much viable. I suggest the .22 WMR (magnum rimfire). As a one-shot knockdown cartridge, probably not; as an area suppression round at 3000 rpms, you bet. Spray at a rate of 3000 rounds per minute of even this small cartridge downrange in a ten-second burst, ...

Problem is: even when we solely look at the issue of area suppression, ROF is not the only important factor. Lets say you we build your .22 WMR minigun. Trouble is: those small, low-energy bullets have horrible ballistics on larger distances, and even IF you hit, they might not retain enough energy to even penetrate the target effectively. .22WMR for example has lost half of its velocity on less than 150m. So you cant engage any enemy farther away, and a disciplined enemy wont be impressed for too long once he realizes that you are basically trying to snipe him with an automatic birdshot shotgun

Next situation: The enemy is within a reasonable effective range of the .22 minigun. Problem is: he sees you and hides behind some cover, lets say a hut of sheet steel. How long would you have to shoot at that cover to penetrate? Is it even possible to penetrate normal 4mm steel with a .22WMR, even at 3000 RPM (eventually, of course)? In that situation you would be more effective with a single, reliable 7.62mm Nato, even a 5.56mm might do the job.

Two essential situations of infantry combat, and in both situations the .22WMR minigun would fail - all the fancy equipment and compromises to have the man-portable mingun with 3000RPM would basically turn into an useless letter weight. You cannot replace the effect of one large caliber with 10 small caliber round.

2)...Now, if the weapon could be made blowback- or gas-operated, that's a whole 'nother can of beans. On the other hand, a rotary-barreled weapon of this smaller caliber would require less battery power, and smaller batteries, than the full-sized 5.56mm. It may be feasible to design a half-blowback-or-gas, half-electrical drive system to reduce battery power need even further.

Even if we assume that a half electrical - half blowback/gas system would be technically sound and added no weight penalty, it would solve nothing. The idea behind the electric drive is to have the full energy of the cartridge reliably on target, but increases weight a lot. The idea behind the gas/blowback operated rotary gun is to get rid of unnecessary secondary systems (the battery and/or motor), to simplify the system and reduce weight - yet it comes at the penalty of possible failures and that a certain amount of cartridge energy is lost to cycle the system.

So a combination would still leave you with the penaly from the electric motor and with the reduction of bullet energy. In any case I dont even know wether a .22WMR could offer enough working pressure to cycle the system.

[edit on 30/3/2006 by Lonestar24]

"Well, as long as you try to add to the discussion respectfully and with a somewhat backed opinion..." (Lonestar24)

Gee, I did try, I tried real hard...

"You can however be disproven, and sadly thats what I´m gonna do." (Lonestar24)

Aw, that's OK, man! It's plain you don't think much of the idea of a manpacked rotary cannon (er, call it a "rifle"...cannons are usually 20mm and larger), and approached the subject with a determination to prove it was not feasible. That's what you do. I myself approached it with a curiosity concerning how it might be made to work, and threw out some ideas...and somehow I just don't feel like I've been disproven yet.

I said a smaller cartridge would help make this concept viable, if it can be made viable; and I suggested the .22 WMR. I didn't dictate the .22 WMR, I merely suggested it. Now consider the .17 Remington of the field; it toils not, but it sure does spin. It fires a 25 grain projectile (which is less than half the weight of that of the 5.56mm) at 4040 feet per second muzzle velocity, and retains 388 foot-pounds of energy at 200 yards. As you know, most firefights take place at less than 300 yards ("meters" I think they call them these days), and I'd say this would be enough to pierce a piece of thin roofing tin at this distance...as if convenient pieces of roofing tin were available for the enemy to hide behind in the field. While not as light a cartridge as the .22 WMR, the .17 Remington would give a substantial weight savings in packed ammunition, mechanism size of the minigun, and power needed to drive the mechanism (compared to 5.56mm), and it has excellent ballistics.

As you know, a projectile gains some 90% of it's velocity even before it leaves the case mouth; and parasitic gas operation taps a negligible amount of bullet energy to power the mechanism. I feel this is not a factor. Same thing for recoil-operated weapons...the amount of energy used to operate the mechanism has a negligible effect on bullet velocity. Matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, on recoil- or gas-operated weapons the bullet has already left the barrel before the mechanism starts to move.

"In any case I dont even know wether a .22WMR could offer enough working pressure to cycle the system." (Lonestar24)

Again, I didn't dictate the .22 WMR, I suggested it. And a recoil- or gas-operated system in this configuration would weigh much less than a battery pack and associated chain-drive electric motor...you are correct that stoppages are a potential problem. That'd be an engineering point to consider, i.e., immediate-action clearing of dud rounds in a mechanism as complicated as this. Maybe it could be done.

And for sure, "one shot one kill" is a fine dictum; but that's not what we're discussing here. One cannot provide suppressive fire with one shot.

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Dyno25000]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Dyno25000]

I dont really think Miniguns could be hand held outside the movies but would be cool if it could.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Jesse Venturas Minigun in 'Predator' had to be loaded with reduced power blanks since the recoil of it and there was also a power cable hidden under his trousers to power the thing.

Anyone seen the film 'Doom' starring 'The Rock'?

Becouse there is a three barreled Minigun carried by one member in his squad, Looked even more bulky than the ones in Predator and
Terminator 2.

True lonestar, meh.

Though I do think being able to fire an insane amount of shots would make a tatical reason for such a gun.

If it was sized down and light enough it could make a good mobile weapon for regular infentry. Something where it could be feasable to make a kill on the move, you could be running and it would be as accurate as it would be if you are standing still, right : ) Also something to clear rooms (3 shot bursts are good for duck and cover, but if you are charghing in a room and a bunch of badies are in it, a swift hold on a trigger and a spin and the whole room is clean with a minigun, no aiming all in a spit second.

If one gun has more then the firepower/rate of fire of then the rest of the unit, then one unit with it facing another one would probablty fare better.

Also hypotheticaly with something like power armor (lucid fantasy) a heavy version unsuited for non-supermen would be very usefull for dealing with masses of regular infentry, which well a few elite powered armor people would have to deal with. Speed, or rate of fire can be a good thing.

Venom 6mm BB Minigun, Also uses C02


The Russian Rival of the M134, The Shipunov GshG 7.62mm

Just if it took 7.62x39/5.45mm Combloc rounds and was hand held.







[edit on 2-8-2006 by Browno]

FAMOUS VIDEOGAME MINIGUNS:

1. From 'Duke Nukem 3D', The 'Ripper Chaingun Cannon' is basically a 3 Barrel Machine Gun held like a Chainsaw, Barrels are in fixed position


2. From 'Doom'.

3. From Wolfenstein 3D.

4. From 'Spear Of Destiny'.

5. Venom Minigun from 'Return To Castle Wolfenstein'.





[edit on 7-8-2006 by Browno]

I remember the use of a device by camera crews on location, when video cameras were god-awful heavy, that was called something like the "Handy Cam" or something like it.

It used canitlever springs or pneumatic pistons mounted on a harness that allowed the cameraman to fairly effortlessly handle the equipment while running, even up court house stairs.

Unless it hasn't already been suggested, a device like this might be adapted to handle the weight of the gun as well as absorb the recoil. As for handling the excessive amounts of rounds, add another soldier with a similar harness to hold just the rounds who would walk in tandem with the gunner? Cumbersome, maybe, but if the benefits outweigh the incovenience of training a coordinated pair of soldiers to utilize this firepower....

Just an idea.

Support system for portable video camera

Go here to see what I was talking about in my previous post. Couldn't find a picture right off, but I'll see what I can have the search engines dig up...

Newtron

Possible Harness for Minigun

Use your imagination here: Adapt some of the parts with carbon fiber materials for weight and add additional pnematics, springs or actuators to handle the recoil. Not sure if someone hasn't already tried it - it just seemed obvious to me.

...Just send in a robot and call it quits, guys. You'll save more spending on the robot than you would in having to ultimately pay bereavement, health care costs and other related expenditures from putting a soldier in there to fire this monster.

Why not just come out with some full-on disruptive ammo for something like an M60?


Why not make really small aluminum explosive sludge rounds? Sort of a nano-baric, if you will. Tiny little .30 caliber SMAW-NE rounds. Like hosing a bunch of small hand grenades downrange. Sort of a one-man Mk19.

There is no point in having .30cal explosive rounds, the payload is so small that it requires a direct hit to have any effects at target and .30cal standard rifle round does more damage than HE one. Russians tried this during WW2...

An american comppany is making 12Cauge frag grenade that is promising, now combine this with AUTO12 shotgun and you have a Mk19 useable by one man...
Btw combo is allready under testing