State doesn't let mom make medical decision for daughter with cancer

a reply to: ScepticScot
Pointless really..... it is all contained in a 3 min vid.

Bye.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: ScepticScot
Pointless really..... it is all contained in a 3 min vid.

Bye.

Yes when talking about cancer treatment a 3 min interview with a celebrity is pointless.

a reply to: ScepticScot
Whatever.
Bye.

a reply to: JAGStorm

I think what I find most amusing about this thread is that people act like "conventional" treatments such as
Chemo, weren't experimental at one point. Just chew on that fat.

If we look back in history doctors and the medical community 100% recommended

mercury
coc aine
blood letting
shock therapy
and my personal favorite, blowing tobacco up someones bum (that's where we get don't blow smoke up my #$$ from)
People believe doctors 100%. Maybe I am old but I actually know of someone that had those kind of procedures done. If you had problems today and the doctor suggested blood letting, or shock therapy, you'd think they were CRAZY...

and many many more. Back not so long ago if you needed your gallbladder out they had to cut half your body, now they just remove it from your belly button.

There will be a day when our descendants look back at us and think our medical procedures are just as barbaric. The point being, there is still just too much we don't understand. For anyone to think we do is just ignorance. The question also remain, even with the best information given who gets to decide?

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: JAGStorm

I think what I find most amusing about this thread is that people act like "conventional" treatments such as
Chemo, weren't experimental at one point. Just chew on that fat.

If we look back in history doctors and the medical community 100% recommended

mercury
coc aine
blood letting
shock therapy
and my personal favorite, blowing tobacco up someones bum (that's where we get don't blow smoke up my #$$ from)
People believe doctors 100%. Maybe I am old but I actually know of someone that had those kind of procedures done. If you had problems today and the doctor suggested blood letting, or shock therapy, you'd think they were CRAZY...

and many many more. Back not so long ago if you needed your gallbladder out they had to cut half your body, now they just remove it from your belly button.

There will be a day when our descendants look back at us and think our medical procedures are just as barbaric. The point being, there is still just too much we don't understand. For anyone to think we do is just ignorance. The question also remain, even with the best information given who gets to decide?

The process for experimental medicine becoming accredited treatment involves organised studies and peer review.

Not 13 year old girls whose lifes at risk taking treatment that has no evidence to work.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain


You are reading something else..... so enough of the 'geez' thank you.

Are you saying that the NHS site all about liver cancer and the bit about liver resection is incorrect?

You know you can provide a link and we both can be on the same page....

a reply to: ScepticScot

You do know you can make a study say anything you want.

Read up on the study on Retinoid Cream

www.sciencedaily.com...

Basically this is just a face cream that A LOT and I mean A LOT of women/men use.
They did a clinical trial and that study said that by using this cream they were more likely to die.
YES DIE. Not get a rash, not have an allergic reaction, but to DIE.

So what did they do... They said

However, evidence does not suggest these excess deaths were caused by the therapy.

You believe what you want to believe, I worked in this industry. The only thing that matters is MONeeeeeY!

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

If your child has liver cancer.. would you stop all treatment and then just do some generic_treatment that has very little to no research to treat your kid? In this case would you stop all treatments and just do CBD oil too based on hearsay and a couple of YouTube videos?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

If your child has liver cancer.. would you stop all treatment and then just do some generic_treatment that has very little is no research on to treat your kid. In this case would you stop all treatments and just do CBD oil too?

If my child had liver cancer I would do just as the mom. I would do anything I could to keep my daughter alive.
Remember, this mom did take her child to the doctor, she did it for half a year. That didn't work and her daughter was dying. What would you do if your kid was slowly dying in front of you at the doctors office. Would you just give up?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Itisnowagain


You are reading something else..... so enough of the 'geez' thank you.

Are you saying that the NHS site all about liver cancer and the bit about liver resection is incorrect?

You know you can provide a link and we both can be on the same page....

I don't know how to..... that is why I have said.... NHS Liver cancer site.

Please provide a link to where it says that liver resection is 'extremely low risk'.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: ScepticScot

You do know you can make a study say anything you want.

Read up on the study on Retinoid Cream

www.sciencedaily.com...

Basically this is just a face cream that A LOT and I mean A LOT of women/men use.
They did a clinical trial and that study said that by using this cream they were more likely to die.
YES DIE. Not get a rash, not have an allergic reaction, but to DIE.

So what did they do... They said

However, evidence does not suggest these excess deaths were caused by the therapy.

You believe what you want to believe, I worked in this industry. The only thing that matters is MONeeeeeY!

From your link.

Patients using a cream containing tretinoin, a retinoid commonly used to treat acne and other conditions, appeared more likely to die than those using a placebo in a clinical trial that was halted early as a result, according to a report. However, evidence does not suggest these excess deaths were caused by the therapy.

Do during a controlled study, what you need to test effectiveness and safety, a higher than expected number of deaths covered on one group. As a result the study was suspended and investigated further.

That's an example of the process working exactly as its meant to.

Clinical studies are far from perfect but they are by far best method available of assessing new medicines.

originally posted by: JAGStorm

If my child had liver cancer I would do just as the mom. I would do anything I could to keep my daughter alive.
Remember, this mom did take her child to the doctor, she did it for half a year. That didn't work and her daughter was dying. What would you do if your kid was slowly dying in front of you at the doctors office. Would you just give up?

Liver cancer is the second worst that you can get... I might do CBD oil, but I would also do the surgery that she has basically 99.99% chance to do just fine with. Now whether the surgery stops the cancer that could be a different story, but the surgery itself is extremely safe.

This story is not about using CBD oil it is about stopping all know effective treatments with the understanding that the mom wants a miracle cure and in the end she will most likely help her daughter's death in the process.

originally posted by: JAGStorm

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

If your child has liver cancer.. would you stop all treatment and then just do some generic_treatment that has very little is no research on to treat your kid. In this case would you stop all treatments and just do CBD oil too?

If my child had liver cancer I would do just as the mom. I would do anything I could to keep my daughter alive.
Remember, this mom did take her child to the doctor, she did it for half a year. That didn't work and her daughter was dying. What would you do if your kid was slowly dying in front of you at the doctors office. Would you just give up?

How did the mother know the treatment wasn't working? By the accounts given she stopped the treatment because she couldn't deal with watching her child go through the treatment. That's at least partially understandable as the subside effects can be horrible.

However giving up on proven treatment regimes to use something that has no evidence of working isn't going to help.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

I don't know how to..... that is why I have said.... NHS Liver cancer site.

Please provide a link to where it says that liver resection is 'extremely low risk'.

Well maybe that is a skill you need to learn...

Copy the whole link of the page you want people to go to then click the button I highlighted below, put in a name you want others to see then hit OK and paste the link and say OK. You have just linked a page to your post.


Here is a risk calculator that I ran for the young girl.

Risk


Here were my results.... The chances of death is almost ZERO for a young girl...average is well under 1%, your 1 out of 30 is actually 3.33% so I would need to understand why.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Do during a controlled study, what you need to test effectiveness and safety, a higher than expected number of deaths covered on one group. As a result the study was suspended and investigated further. That's an example of the process working exactly as its meant to.

That study made my point. The study didn't show what they wanted so they scrapped it and they are still prescribing that cream. If there is a chance it is really killing people, it should not be prescribed.

If X number of people die while on the cream
but X number of people do NOT die while on the placebo

A report prepared for one of the study's several oversight committees in 2004 identified a statistically significant increase in the number of deaths among study participants in the group using tretinoin.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: ScepticScot

Do during a controlled study, what you need to test effectiveness and safety, a higher than expected number of deaths covered on one group. As a result the study was suspended and investigated further. That's an example of the process working exactly as its meant to.

That study made my point. The study didn't show what they wanted so they scrapped it and they are still prescribing that cream. If there is a chance it is really killing people, it should not be prescribed.

If X number of people die while on the cream
but X number of people do NOT die while on the placebo

A report prepared for one of the study's several oversight committees in 2004 identified a statistically significant increase in the number of deaths among study participants in the group using tretinoin.

They studied it and didnt find any connection to use of the cream.

ETA _ I am not saying the process is flawless or even close. There undoubtedly many manipulated studies. Just that it's the best system anyone has came up with yet.

a reply to: Xtrozero
www.nhs.uk...
How that?
You will have to scroll down to the bit about Risks with liver resection.

a reply to: Xtrozero
How can you know all the correct answers to the questions in the risk assessment?

Can you even name the actual surgery procedure Kylee is going to have?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

You will have to scroll down to the bit about ricks.... with liver resection.

I read it and it doesn't give much data. Saying 1 in 30 doesn't take into account those that are serious high risk too, so if you are high risk you might have a 50% chance of dying and with the young girl she could have close to zero chance. The average is .5% and the young girl is close to 0%.

If you are low risk it doesn't mean 3.33% just as the high risk doesn't mean 3.33% either. In other words that statement isn't something you should base your argument on.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: Xtrozero
How can you know all the correct answers to the questions in the risk assessment?

Can you even name the actual surgery procedure Kylee is going to have?

Well I did my best guess of a typical teen would be such as she is under the age of 65, not a smoker, not in liver failure and so on. You can type in liver and it lists all the surgeries associated with the liver if you choose anyone they have close to the same risk.