Everyone Needs to Condemn China over Hong Kong Right Now!!

originally posted by: muzzleflash

originally posted by: subfab
a reply to: muzzleflash

doesn't china own hong kong anyway?
aren't they (china) taking back what is rightfully theirs?

No.
The people in Hong Kong appear to want to remain autonomous.
Hundreds of thousands of them have been protesting. That's significant.

Then I highly suggest they do a little more to earn that right than just protesting. They're GOING to have to get off their asses, put the signs down, and actually spill some blood if that's how they want to keep living. That's nobody else's job but theirs. Retrieve your panties from your nethers, and let them deal with their future themselves, no white knight is, nor should, ride in and do it for them.

Took me reading back a few pages to find this response. I'll bite.

originally posted by: muzzleflash

originally posted by: Nyiah
Screw 'em. Their house, their mess.

It's too late for that. We are already invested into the world politic and we have military bases all around the world.

Yep. And it's time to knock that s# off and pull back.

My sarcastic point in the OP was that we are always more than willing to intervene in a situation where we are the bad guy simply to grab some resources

Yeah bro. That's generally how the US government operates -- "Sure, we'll help. What's in it for us again? Oh, nice oil resources you have there!" You'd be hard-pressed to find a citizen who actually agrees with this beyond the braindead warmonger civilians who support that low-key "raid & raze" approach.

but when we actually have a situation where we are the good guy we are just refusing to intervene because "their house their mess" and other BS excuses that would only be legit if we said the same thing about all those other hot-spots we are currently involved in like Yemen, Iran, Korea, Nigeria, Syria, Colombia, etc.

Don't give a damn, man. We need to GTFO of those places,too, it's not our fight, culture, business, etc.

My point is that we are lying hypocrites that actually don't believe in Freedom or any of that feel-good nonsense and that we are no better than the Chinese tyrants we claim to oppose.

Every culture has their own imperialist or resource greed notions. We're no different in pushing the so-called "Freedom" package. How's that worked out for the countries we've sold that line of BS to again?

The only difference being that China is honest about their tyranny and does it up front, where we lie and pretend we are liberty-lovers when in reality we aren't.

I think the only morons who believe that drivel are Americans to begin with. The rest of the world sees right through us and thus wouldn't be too surprised or off-put if we stayed out of one conflict or another for once.

Thanks for proving my point by offering your opinion supporting it.

Pretty sure I didn't prove any point of yours by expressing wanting us to be non-interventionists. We've no right to butt our noses in the business of billions of others globally, we're NOT that special. This God Complex America has is insufferable.

Some facts about Hong Kong...

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: pexx421

China is ranked #86 on the list of countries by Human Development Index whereas Switzerland is #2, Hong Kong is #7, and the U.S. is #13. China is ranked #78 on the list of countries by GDP per capita whereas Switzerland is #9, Hong Kong is #10, and the U.S. is #11. Despite China having the 2nd largest GDP only behind the U.S., they also have a massive population which means a small GDP per capita and a low average wage compared to most nations. The only redeeming factor of their economy is the mass production results in low prices, but even accounting for that China ranks rather low in terms of average income per capita and is considered a middle income country.

Why Increased Socialism Leads to Increased Prices

As one of the world's leading international financial centres, Hong Kong's service-oriented economy is characterized by its low taxation, almost free port trade and well established international financial market.[13] Its currency, called the Hong Kong dollar, is legally issued by three major international commercial banks,[14] and pegged to the US dollar.[15][16] Interest rates are determined by the individual banks in Hong Kong to ensure they are market driven.[17] There is no officially recognised central banking system, although the Hong Kong Monetary Authority functions as a financial regulatory authority.[18][19]

According to the Index of Economic Freedom,[20] Hong Kong has had the highest degree of economic freedom in the world since the inception of the index in 1995. Its economy is governed under positive non-interventionism, and is highly dependent on international trade and finance. For this reason it is regarded as among the most favorable places to start a company. In fact, a recent study shows that Hong Kong has come from 998 registered start-ups in 2014 to over 2800 in 2018, with eCommerce (22%), Fintech (12%), Software (12%) and Advertising (11%) companies comprising the majority.[21] The Economic Freedom of the World Index listed Hong Kong as the number one country, with a score of 8.97, in 2015.[22]

Economy of Hong Kong

As a result, Hong Kong has its own legal system and borders, and rights including freedom of assembly and free speech are protected.

For example, it is one of the few places in Chinese territory where people can commemorate the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, where the military opened fire on unarmed protesters in Beijing.
---
While most people in Hong Kong are ethnic Chinese, and although Hong Kong is part of China, a majority of people there don't identify as Chinese.

Surveys from the University of Hong Kong show that most people identify themselves as "Hong Kongers" - only 11% would call themselves "Chinese" - and 71% of people say they do not feel proud about being Chinese citizens.

Why are there protests in Hong Kong? All the context you need

Here's my personal take on the conflict... no one can really make a move unless China makes a move first, no one wants to start a war. However if China does take military action then the west should react, because Hong Kong has no chance of defending against the mass numbers of the Chinese army. This is also why it's not very helpful to tell them that rioting and "spilling some blood" is the only way. That will only provoke China, the communist regime of China has killed millions in the past for not falling into line, we probably shouldn't assume they wouldn't do it again.

As to why this issue is going so under-reported, well I think it's quite obvious. China doesn't like the high level of autonomy and economic freedom that Hong Kong enjoys, especially when that freedom has provided them with a much higher quality of life compared to the rest of China. The leftist MSM will hesitate to touch this topic because it disproves all their Utopian dreams that big government will solve all problems, that capitalism and free market economics don't help anyone, etc, and it highlights the totalitarian behavior of the Chinese communist party.

I'm not so sure about who is really instigating the protests. The U. S. Flags waving and singing the U. S. National Anthem? Something isn't right about this. The PRC may be causing the riots themselves to justify removing HK's semi-autonomy. The protesters seem too brazen. This just seems to perfect for the PRC to pass up.

No. It is there country, stoppng judging it through your colored glasses.

No humanitarian crisis? Let them take care of it.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight
👍Armageddon happens so fast, doesn't it??

a reply to: Nyiah

Which is why I stated I am against such protests because such protests always eventually call up for military interventions or something inbetween.

Lets not meddle in, we already done enough harm as Europe in Libya and elsewhere.

a reply to: muzzleflash

I'd rather fix the myriad issues we face within the US than focus on telling another country how they should live their lives. There are atrocities committed world wide everyday but we need to do our own housekeeping first.

We have far left socialists taking over our government in the form of radical Muslims, stupid former bartenders in Congress making public policy and advocating for open borders, and the largest social media and search engine companies on the planet attempting to subvert the sovereign rights of United States citizens and influence election cycles.

We have an open and active terrorist organization (ANTIFA) allowed to operate without impunity. We clearly have one of the single most corrupt justice departments in history, and the mockingbird media won't shut up with daily levels of completely made up fake news.

China is the least of my concerns right now unless we are looking for an example of what it means to stand up to a tyrannical government. That idea has legs.

Why aren't these young chinese people in college?

I am playing an advanced civilization game and it's very important to keep your citizens occupied.

The old saying idle time is the devils play pen is true.

Especially when they are young...

That is why free college at least for the 1sr 2 years is important.
These kids were kept busy and baby sat for 12. years.

Need to add on another 2. At least.

It's very important to create dilemmas to keep you population at bay.

Sports is huge

But also coming up with impossible goals to keep people busy on never ending task like the fight on global warming . Is the true genius.

originally posted by: ServiusTull
I'm not so sure about who is really instigating the protests. The U. S. Flags waving and singing the U. S. National Anthem? Something isn't right about this. The PRC may be causing the riots themselves to justify removing HK's semi-autonomy. The protesters seem too brazen. This just seems to perfect for the PRC to pass up.

This is how countries mess with one another these days.
Its through trade wars
Its through sanctions
Its going into a country and creating anti Gov and over throwing Gov movements.

Modern countries are rarely attacking with traditional weapons and armies these days.

The u.s. is attacked by their enemies by creating carvans to over whelm the border.

Supporting groups like antifa

Going to add this from the other HK v China thread just to have a place to save it. Will catch up on lasts posts in here later:::

That's not how "law" works. Law is based on using words to convince people of certain things. There is no "reality" in law, it's all fiction and basically you just believe whatever story sounds best.

Because HK is in a "gray area" of "autonomy", and is "transitional", than I am at complete liberty to use legal language to paint this picture the way I want to see it. And that's completely legitimate in "law". If it weren't legitimate, than we wouldn't have lawyers arguing multiple "views" and having a judge make "decisions" on what side of the story he believes the most. Also we wouldn't have appeals and higher courts, challenges and objections, etc. So not only is the judge's decisions up for dispute, but anything and everything can be disputed multiple times and "our views" can change and shift as the years pass by.

It is completely mutable and nothing is ever set in stone until all's said and done.

With that said, I'm saying that HK is not only not part of the PRC, but that it's in the perfect position to declare itself independent based on the legal principles of self-determination and that the PRC violates human rights systematically. The ICCPR is a good starting point for them being able to go forward with the process of creating barriers to the PRC and making it difficult for them to do anything unless they use military force to silence them.

Most people in HK not only identify as "Hong Kongers", but the vast majority of them do not identify as "Chinese" and dislike the entire concept of ever having to identify as "Chinese".

Taiwan is a good example of a region that used the gray area of legalese to stonewall China's attempts at controlling it directly. The scales tip back and forth a lot but the situation is similar in various ways.

Point being, if and when the PRC moves it's military in and starts disappearing and killing HK citizens claiming "they are terrorists/rebels/etc" I will be here telling you that's not true, and that the PRC is tyrannical oppressive and psychopathic, and that their only method of control is "might is right" and that this is illegal under international law and a war crime.

I could go on about this for hours, and I've said a lot of stuff in this and other threads, and my thinking is developing as time is progressing. But basically I'm going to continue saying HK is not only not part of China, but that it's in the perfect position to declare independence and/or claim that it's rightfully part of the Nationalist "Republic of China" govt (the one that existed before the Commies took over).

I mean really think about it. The ROC could still be considered completely legitimate here as rightful owners of HK, and we could say that the PRC is a "terrorist" entity, or "illegitimate" in whatever legalese we can devise.

For example read this:

Today, only 17 UN member states (Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Nicaragua, Haiti, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Paraguay, Swaziland, Kiribati, Nauru, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Marshall Islands and Palau) and the Holy See maintain relations with the ROC.

History of Taiwan since 1945

The Holy See still recognizes it, and as any good conspiracy theorist knows, they are one of the most important voices politically in the world. Heck, some people think they rule the world in conjunction with London and DC.

Even the PRC grudgingly recognizes the ROC's political legitimacy:

On 7 November 2015, a meeting was held by ROC president Ma Ying-jeou and Communist Party's General Secretary Xi Jinping in Singapore.

So I'd even go so far as to say that the ROC is the rightful govt of all of China, despite being in exile, and that they are the rightful owners of HK and that any treaties made between the UK and the PRC are null and void on their face because the PRC never had a legitimate claim to HK to begin with.

So let's see the pro PRC people argue against that and build a more convincing legal claim. I know they can easily just drive a bunch of tanks in and kill anyone who disagrees and just take the island by force, but that's illegal and a war crime so it doesn't make their claims legitimate by international law or the principles and theories of law.

Its not a surprise that Hillary Clinton now supports the Hong Kong Protestors as well.
That is why I am not supporting it.

a reply to: muzzleflash

Most people in HK not only identify as "Hong Kongers", but the vast majority of them do not identify as "Chinese" and dislike the entire concept of ever having to identify as "Chinese".

To claim or to suggest that they aren't Chinese its like saying those people aren't Ukrainian Slavic or Slavs.

originally posted by: ChefFox
Its not a surprise that Hillary Clinton now supports the Hong Kong Protestors as well.
That is why I am not supporting it.

So if Hillary Clinton said the sky was blue, you'd disagree?

That's not a legitimate reason to formulate an opinion.

In 2006, Senator Clinton co-sponsored the Zadroga 9/11 Health Act which became law in 2011.[398][399] The legislation funds and establishes a health program to provide medical treatment for responders and survivors who experienced or may experience health complications related to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Since leaving the Senate, Clinton has repeatedly urged Congress to reauthorize the legislation.[400][401]

I guess that means you'd be against giving health assistance to 911 emergency responders too huh? Because she supported it?

Just because I disagree with almost every single policy she's pushed, doesn't mean I automatically disagree with all of them. You should think for yourself rather than merely taking the opposite position that Hillary took on every issue.

Besides, she's just getting on the bandwagon of my thread...

a reply to: ChefFox

In her 2016 policy position on marijuana, Clinton says that she supports rescheduling marijuana to Schedule II; "allowing states that have enacted marijuana laws to act as laboratories of democracy, as long as they adhere to certain federal priorities such as not selling to minors, preventing intoxicated driving, and keeping organized crime out of the industry"; and "focus[ing] federal enforcement resources on violent crime, not simple marijuana possession."[451]

You do know a broken clock is right twice a day?

Damn shame that Hong Kong is part of China, and is full of Chinese people.

Perhaps the Chinese PLA should do as the US Military does....go and bomb the hell out of them to, you know, liberate them, because they all want to be free.

So when the Chinese start sending the cruise missiles, drones and "Strategic" smart bombings in, it will all be for those Hong Kongers own good......they should be happy that the Chinese will liberate them.

Ahh Freedom!!....................at a price. But who can afford to pay??

I wonder if all the Chinatowns in the USA want to be freed too?

originally posted by: ChefFox
a reply to: muzzleflash

Most people in HK not only identify as "Hong Kongers", but the vast majority of them do not identify as "Chinese" and dislike the entire concept of ever having to identify as "Chinese".

To claim or to suggest that they aren't Chinese its like saying those people aren't Ukrainian Slavic or Slavs.

I've interacted with quite a few Hong Kong backpackers, we'll I was on the road and fruit picking for a few extra dollars.

One thing I learned from my interactions, is that they're extremely placid & friendly in general... But they can quickly turn and do take deep offence to being associated with China.

... But that's just my personal experience.

Meh. I expect much of the “democratic protest” is being funded and fostered by the west. At any rate, we certainly hate democracy and protests here. I seem to recall plenty us protests being put down quite brutally.

Interesting that an almost exactly similar scenario is being played out in Kashmir by the fascist modi government of India. Where’s it in the headlines? Whatever.