You want proof of evolution at work, here it is.... Enjoy! (Observable and testable).

The funny thing is... I'm not against the idea of some type of universal consciousness, if you want to put facts to the side and talk philosophy.

The book Star Maker by Olaf Stapledon is probably the best description of a universal being that comes closest to my own philosophies... also, one of the best pieces of prose ever written in my opinion.

The best quick analogy I can throw out is the body as an analogy for the universe. Are you conscious of a specific cell in your body? No? Just like a universal consciousness would not be aware of an individual creature/planet/entity within it's body (the universe)... a universal consciousness would be so far removed from our ability to conceptualise it (I suspect we quite literally can't think in enough dimensions), or from any practical effect on our day to day lives that a higher being is essentially irrelevant... I definitely don't believe it needs to be worshiped. Do you need your cells to worship you?

The problem is, this type of musing is philosophy, good fun, but has no facts associated with. If there is a fact discovered, it is no longer philosophy, and enters the realm of science.

So, given all that, where do the facts lead us? Even if a deity is involved, there's no evidence AT ALL for it's active involvement... and that type of god just makes us all into playthings, which seems pretty petty for a god. So maybe passive involvement?, such as kicked the whole thing in motion?... then we should be able to figure out the processes involved. No?

In the absence of an alternative, evolution is all we've got. You think it's wrong? Correct it, or offer the alternative. Though realise that any alternative will still end up looking very similar to evolution, based on the facts that we do know.

Creation, for the moment (no facts), is still philosophy, and isn't a logically arguable alternative to evolution.

Don't be so hard on yourself puzzlesphere.

This and that, you're only assuming.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

So... a useless response that adds nothing to the conversation... Take a bow!

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Since i'm so incapable... can you point me in the direction of the correct god please?

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

So... a useless response that adds nothing to the conversation... Take a bow!

What conversation? Were you making one?

The truth is delusional as you are you were only trying to convince yourself of your assumptions being reality.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Encore! Bow again!

Massive leap from one design "flaw" to suggest proof of anything. Unfortunately even if intelligent design exists, it does not mean perfection must occur.

Look at earthquakes and disease. Neither are the "best" way for humans to thrive either. You've merely taken another example of an imperfection in this world.

It's been argued before... you just used a Giraffe

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly
Ok, everyone keeps asking for evidence of evolution, (Raggedyman, EdMC2)… Here’s some…

I watched a programme a few years back where they were dissecting a Giraffe. Was fascinating… this is the biggest thing I took from the programme:-

In humans, the vocal chord comes from the back of the voice box in the throat, down the neck, wraps around a ventricle of the heart, then travels all the way back up the neck and connects to the brain. This is clearly not the most efficient route and clearly would not be “designed” this way…

In Giraffe’s also, believe it or not, the chord travels all the way down the neck, round the heart and all the way back to the brain up the neck. As I am sure you will agree, had this been designed this would be a ludicrous route to take.

This all comes from our (Humans and Giraffe’s) common ancestor you see… When the first mammal slithered out of the oceans all those millions of years ago it was still effectively an amphibious creature, it just evolved/mutated enough to be able to breath air, it clearly gained an advantage from this transition… In fish this route that the chord takes IS the most economical route…

This clearly proves our relation to a common ancestor… To claim that this anomaly is DESGINED this way is ridiculous… If it is designed this way then your god is very bad at design....

Please discuss…

PA

New thread from PA. Cool. But, sorry, the title is a complete fail!

"...proof of evolution at work..."

Nope. It's only a rehash of an old YT video. It's not "... proof of evolution at work..." but proof of magnificent design of a magnificent animal. To have such an amazing neck as a giraffe require great engineering feat and wisdom.

To prove my point. Here's one simple question to you. What would happen if the chord did NOT TRAVEL ...

" ... all the way down the neck, round the heart and all the way back to the brain up the neck." ????

Here's a clue in case you don't know.

originally posted by: puzzlesphere


The problem is, this type of musing is philosophy, good fun, but has no facts associated with. If there is a fact discovered, it is no longer philosophy, and enters the realm of science.

Sounds like science is your God. Not saying for better or worse, but consider that our life expectancy is about the same as the Greeks back in the 3rd century BC. Beloved science really has only made us lazy, relying on pills to resolve problems that would better be solved within. Sure we have planes and cars now, but at what expense? Science looks for answers outside of us, Philosophy, meaning the love of knowledge, looks for answers within. Considering the human body is one of the most amazing organic machines known to humankind, you should consider that there are answers within, and value to it. There are more forms of attaining knowledge than science.

there's no evidence AT ALL for God's active involvement...

Could you imagine a fish that doesn't believe in water? Water provides it nourishment, both inside and out, allows it to move within its ether, whether the fish believes in it or not. Yet water is totally invisible and unnoticeable until the fish is deprived of it.

Do you think it's a coincidence that all the laws of the universe continue to perpetuate at such meticulous accuracy that biological lifeforms can continue to exist? The evidence is everywhere, you just have to interpret it correctly.

a reply to: cooperton

Science is not my "god" at all... (lol, you religious people always trying to fit everyone into your close minded little religious box)... science, in it's ideal form, is a methodology and a collection of observations, inferences and facts. So only if you like to make s**t up (which religious people do a lot of to maintain their faith), is science in any way a religion or a god.

Also, it is extremely presumptuous and arrogant of you to assume I don't value inner knowledge... I do, I hinted at a couple of my "philosophies" above... but i thought we were having a fact based discussion.

If the evidence is everywhere for your god, then you should be able to come up with a repeatable test to prove it. No?

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
(lol, you religious people always trying to fit everyone into your close minded little religious box)...

Welp, I tried to have a conversation.. Can you respond without being demeaning? Just step down from the pedestal, there's no need to belittle other people.

science, in it's ideal form, is a methodology and a collection of observations, inferences and facts. So only if you like to make s**t up (which religious people do a lot of to maintain their faith), is science in any way a religion or a god.

You idolize science as the main form of receiving knowledge. So much so that you ignore other avenues of truth.

If the evidence is everywhere for your god, then you should be able to come up with a repeatable test to prove it. No?

You wake up, every day. Morning comes, every day. Worms etc metabolize oxidized debris into usable food for plants, every day. Plants release oxygen, every day. How much repeatability do you want? Again, you idolize one small subset of science - that which is done in a lab. In actuality, observable data (science) happens all the time, everywhere, consistently. Such is a demonstration of the constancy of God.

The world perpetuates by consistent laws, not randomness. All laws are enacted by something intelligent.

a reply to: cooperton

You tried to have a conversation? Your first comment was "Sounds like science is your god"... that is pigeon holing... not very conversational.

I don't idolise science, I accept it as a methodological framework for testing and discovering facts... not sure how you idolise that exactly... unless you personify "science", which you seem to be doing. I also gain knowledge in other ways, and understand that there may be "truths" outside of our current factual understanding of the universe, but where "facts" are concerned, it falls into science. "Truth" versus "fact" is an entirely different discussion, and again, falls into philosophy.

You have not shown that "all laws are enacted by something intelligent", maybe they're not, you have to show it, otherwise it is your wish, not fact... that's where your logic falls down.

originally posted by: strongfp

V8 engines were built by a designer.

Human 'parts' weren't. They evolved over time.

If evolution was ongoing, why do we have species of gorilla still running around? Why haven't they become human already?

BTW, a chimp walking upright doesn't equal to evolution. You can teach a dog to walk in two legs too, is the dog becoming human too?

a reply to: puzzlesphere

Far be it from me to tell you who God is there is plenty for you to think upon tons of information for you to peruse if you are capable you will figure it out...
It has been said seek and ye shall find...
Not something you can fake though, so you are probably incapable...
Just the same I dare you to do it in earnest not for me but because I’d like to hear of your surprise in actually finding him... No scratch that allowing him to reveal himself to you...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Ahhhh... so you don't know if your god is the right one... but you still get all superior, and give some mystically vague tired old tripe about seeking and finding "Him" (god has a gender?), and revealing "himself" if I "allow" it?... lol

Sorry... which god was this again?

Actually... I'm good thanks... I'm at peace with the journey my spiritual self is on... and don't I need you to avoid answering my question again.

Never expect a straight answer from a creationist... they don't have any. All they have is dogma.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

I know who my God is and my belief transcends faith, I have been given all the proof I could need and more...
I’m not being superior and yes you need me to avoid answering your question, because I can’t do this for you...
And neither can God it’s up to you, you want to portray yourself as wise but act the fool...
You see God isn’t hidden from you, you are hiding from him...
The spiritual quest of the self is just that, self serving,..
You are not God...

a reply to: Out6of9Balance
Well yes. Dispute evolution all you want. Or creationism or god, or even the gods. I dont think they give two #z. Not like it matters one iota peoples opinions on any of it.

But to say you did not come from apes. Well that's a no brainier. Not only did we come from apes, we did not come all that far from them.

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
...
science, in it's ideal form, is a methodology and a collection of observations, inferences and facts. So only if you like to make s**t up (which religious people do a lot of to maintain their faith), is science in any way a religion or a god.
...

Not really, left-wingers in general have made a mockery of science. From the "the science is settled on climate change, humans are the reason," to "the science is settled there are dozens and dozens and dozens of genders/sexes..." Both of those arguments are false, and there is plenty of scientific evidence that disputes both "claims."

Evolution is a mystery religion written by men over the last few centuries and the god it worships is worshiped by many.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: Out6of9Balance
Well yes. Dispute evolution all you want. Or creationism or god, or even the gods. I dont think they give two #z. Not like it matters one iota peoples opinions on any of it.

But to say you did not come from apes. Well that's a no brainier. Not only did we come from apes, we did not come all that far from them.

And to show us all the scientific evidence
No brainer