Yes, another thread about Atlantis.

First, I want to make it clear that I will be pulling information out of the following sources:
The Dictionary of Mythology (an A-Z of themes, legends, and heros) from J.A Coleman
ISBN:978-1-84193-424-2
The Greek Myths (stories of the Greek gods and Heros vividly retold) from Robin Waterfield
ISBN: 978-1-4351-3242-9
The Times Complete History of the World from Richard Overy
ISBN: 978-0-00-795956-3
Past Worlds (the Times Atlas of Achaeology) from Hammond inc
ISBN: 0-7230-0306-8
The Dialogues of Plato (volume 2) 1937 printing, from Benjamin Jowett, M.A.
No ISBN listing given, can be found in some bookstores, but is also available online through many retailers in sections by searching by the title.
wikipedia.org when needed (hyper-link will be provided)

The purpose of this thread is to provide discussion material about the validity of Atlantis as a historical place, and not a place filled with mystical gods and mind-bending technologies. While many view Atlantis as an allegory for territorial governance, others view it as a land of god-like beings that controlled the forces of the world.

I’m not going to argue either way about these views, but rather try to dissect the story of Atlantis using real world examples as a basis to figure out what Atlantis is and where it could be based off the stories told. Knowing what was going on in the world at the time when Atlantis existed will be prodded and poked in an attempt to see the world it functioned in a little more closely.

Hopefully by the end of this OP, we can have a constructive discussion about the world that Atlantis existed in as well as Atlantis possible locations, history, and possible culture it may have had. This will be a speculative view of course, but hopefully one rooted in reality, and not infested by the magical tales of popular mythologies.

Let’s begin at the beginning, Plato. In the dialogs of Critias a discussion about the complexities of providing a discourse of praise over gods and men vs man and man. Critias invokes Mnemosyne in hopes of … well here is a quote from the dialog:

I would specially invoke Mnemosyne; for all to the important parts of my discourse is dependent on her favor, and if I can recollect and recite enough of what was said by the priests and brought hither by Solon, I doubt not that I shall satisfy the requirements of this Theater.

Mnemosyne is a goddess of memory. She was not only the daughter of Uranus and Gaea, but also mother of the Muses, so she is a powerhouse in the worlds of gods. Critias appears to be calling forth this Goddess in an attempt to make his statements “unquestionable” by his listeners.

Before I go any further let’s first look at the point being made here. Plato is the writer of this dialog, but if we are to take what Plato says as word, then we must accept the fact that he was only transcribing a story told by Critias, and not a story created by Plato himself. This point is very important since we mostly agree that Plato very focused on providing exacting details in his writings. The fact that he notes that it is Critias that is relaying the story of Atlantis means that details are being presented that Plato may not agree with, but doesn’t state anything about this in this dialog since he is only transcribing what was stated, and not his personal beliefs.

Now we dive into the story of the Atlantis story with a rough date being given as 9000 years since the end of the Athenian war with the people dwelt outside the pillars of Heracles. Critias makes another point that the city of Atlantis was reportedly in charge of the military and had committed soldiers to the fighting as well. The kings of Atlantis were also the commanders of these soldiers during this war. The next part that is talked about is very important to this thread:

Atlantis, which, as I was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassible barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean. The progress of the history will unfold the various nations of barbarians and families of Hellenes which then existed, as they successively appear on the scene;

There’s a lot to digest with this so let’s break it down starting the approximate date. So 9000 years before the time of Plato would make it around 9300 BC. This would be only a few generations out from the Würm glaciation WIKI.

The Würm glaciation (German: Würm-Kaltzeit or Würm-Glazial or Würm stage, colloquially often also Würmeiszeit or Würmzeit; c.f. ice age), in the literature usually just referred to as the Würm, often spelt "Wurm", was the last glacial period in the Alpine region. It is the youngest of the major glaciations of the region that extended beyond the Alps themselves. It is, like most of the other ice ages of the Pleistocene epoch, named after a river, the Würm in Bavaria, a tributary of the Amper. The Würm ice age can be dated to the time about 115,000 to 11,700 years ago, the sources differing depending on whether the long transition phases between the glacials and interglacials (warmer periods) are allocated to one or other of these periods. The average annual temperatures during the Würm ice age in the Alpine Foreland were below −3 °C (today +7 °C). This has been determined from changes in the vegetation (pollen analysis) as well as differences in the facies.

Cities and cultures were still developing, and the creative notion of farming and domestication of livestock was still a very new idea. So this war that is being discussed is taking place during the earliest days before organized and stationary societies. If we are to take Critias story as true, then we will have to accept that the Attica Peninsula was inhabited since the end of the last ice age.

On the other hand if this date was of a mistranslation and the story takes place 900 years before the telling of the dialog, then we can look at 1200 BC. During this time The area was coming out of the Greek Dark Ages WIKI , and this war could be the proposed invasion by the Dorian People WIKI

Classical tradition, as recorded for example in Herodotus, describes the "Return of the Heracleidae" (Ἐπιστροφὴ τῶν Ἡρακλειδῶν), the descendants of Heracles, who were exiled at his death and returned in later generations to reclaim the dominion that Heracles had held in the Peloponnesus. The Greece to which the tradition refers is the mythic one, now considered to be Mycenaean Greece. The details differ from one ancient author to another, the commonality being that a traditional ruling clan traced its legitimacy to Heracles.

This could lead credence to Critias notion about the family of Hellenes. In Greek tradition Hellen is the father of all the Greeks and was married the nymph Orseis. Nymphs were groups of divinities that lived near water, in some stories they are also referred to as Pleiades. Pleiades are also called by the Greeks as descendants of Atlas.

So on one hand this war between Athens and the forces commanded by Atlantis could have been about control of hunting grounds (if we assume that the 9300BC is correct), or it could be about an Atlantean break-a-way group that had been separated or possibly freed themselves from Atlantis and made the Attica Peninsula their new home (if we were to assume the 1200BC year is correct)

This background on the war is highly important Since it would not only allow us to make educated guesses as to where the city of Atlantis could be, but more importantly it will allow us to get an understanding of the political and sociological world in which the people of Atlantis lived. I’m going to end this part of the discussion here so that a dialog of our own can begin. The war that is talked about is an important feature of the story relayed to us by Critias. I’ll gage the success of this thread to see if continuing the topic further is warranted.

This is like the 1000th thread about Atlantis this week. WTF?

originally posted by: FlukeSkywalker
This is like the 1000th thread about Atlantis this week. WTF?

Well I was thinking about doing one on Hy-Brasil, but since everyone like AOC (Atlantean Of Course) it just seemed like the right thing to do.

Perhaps Atlantis existed, perhaps it still exists. What if the Pillars of Hercules were at the entrance to Agartha? Perhaps the sinking of it is an allegory to it being in the realm beneath us? All the stories of the hollow earth describe technology far more advanced than ours even now. Didn't Byrd talk about vehicles that could fly instantly to the either pole? Pretty sure he described them as what we consider UFO's. He suffered tremendous losses at the scant reported battle of Antartica. Ufo's are seen around nuclear reactors before they mysteriously shut down. Crazy out

a reply to: CrazyFox

While you may have valid talking points. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the historic nature of Atlantis and the world that the story came to us in.



As I laid out in the OP;

The purpose of this thread is to provide discussion material about the validity of Atlantis as a historical place, and not a place filled with mystical gods and mind-bending technologies. While many view Atlantis as an allegory for territorial governance, others view it as a land of god-like beings that controlled the forces of the world.

I’m not going to argue either way about these views, but rather try to dissect the story of Atlantis using real world examples as a basis to figure out what Atlantis is and where it could be based off the stories told. Knowing what was going on in the world at the time when Atlantis existed will be prodded and poked in an attempt to see the world it functioned in a little more closely.

Hopefully by the end of this OP, we can have a constructive discussion about the world that Atlantis existed in as well as Atlantis possible locations, history, and possible culture it may have had. This will be a speculative view of course, but hopefully one rooted in reality, and not infested by the magical tales of popular mythologies.

So while Agartha would be within this talking point, UFO's and Byrd's visual reports of what he saw on his flight really isn't. I would enjoy hearing about your thought on Agartha and it's possible connections to the war as described by Critias.

originally posted by: FlukeSkywalker
This is like the 1000th thread about Atlantis this week. WTF?

I know right, how about someone make a thread about politics for a change..

/sarc

Atlantis has been both an geological and archeological puzzle since Plato made mention of it and has resulted in countless of wasted treasure hunts to locate such a place. Reading of the wonderous stories of its advanced technological capabilities it certainly entices the imagination however it is just a displacement for the longing of another kind of paradise much like the fable of Eden. The truth though is that the Atlantis civilization was just another part of the now recognized sumerian epoch and in fact Atlantis was most likely where the academic institutions where located, and more than likely a central government. There was most likely a sort of natural catastrophe that caused its abandoment and is the root of the various great flood myhs that became mixed up over the decades as embelishments were added.

It is a futile to search for evidence of Atlantis as it stands to reason that we need only to look at the sumerian and egyptian empires to know all we need about Atlantis, having being forced to abandon the 'motherland' spread amongst the closest mainlands to continue their soceity and governmence of the known world. This process of rebuilding of course left the the government unstable and contenders emgerged to engage in various power struggles leading to violent skirmishes and wars. Meanwhile the academic qualities were more than likely strictly controlled, afterall knowledge is power and a government can not be successful without power either real or imagined.

a reply to: Guyfriday

I’ll gage the success of this thread to see if continuing the topic further is warranted. 

I'm into it

Please..

a reply to: Tindalos2013


The geological puzzle is going to be a couple of puzzle sets. If we assume that the date given by Critias is correct then the city could have been wiped out by a glacial lake busting it's dam. On the other hand if we assume a mistranslation and go with the 1200BC as the date for the war, then we have the option of seeking information from local mythologies for clues.

In the 9300BC version of the story (the one that has been written by Plato, but relayed by Critias) the location of Atlantis must be closer to the Attica Peninsula than Africa. In fact give that a glacier was falling apart in the alps at that time, and reshaping the landscape each time, we could make a guess that the Italian region could be a possible location to the City Island of Atlantis. It could very well be placed in the Rovigo and Ferrara area. Ferrara WIKI

The first documented settlements in the area of the present-day Province of Ferrara date from the 6th century BC. The ruins of the Etruscan town of Spina, established along the lagoons at the ancient mouth of Po river, were lost until modern times, when drainage schemes in the Valli di Comacchio marshes in 1922 first officially revealed a necropolis with over 4,000 tombs, evidence of a population centre that in Antiquity must have played a major role.

So having an issue with people repopulating the area after a massive destruction of the land, is possible. As for the issue of 6th century being the earliest documentation of populations taking place, remember that if a glacier fell down the alps and wiped out a major city state like Atlantis, then many tales might have been tole that pushed out the idea of people living there right away. Any archeologist looking in the area for a civilization in the area that could have existed in 9300BC would have to look for something that was destroyed by a massive landslide.

I like the idea of this possibility if the story takes place in 9300BC, since it plays well with all of the myths of the region, but also would mean that cities and empires had already been a thing when man was just coming out of the Ice Age, and was settling in to social area, farming, and domesticating animals. This is also why I feel that the war Critias is discussing is more important then just the bit of Atlantis.

The city of Atlantis was the Eye of Africa, obviously. There's mysterious structures all over the Sahara, and The Eye itself is covered in clear signs of ancient human construction. There are even what some believe are canals. When was the last time there was water enough in the region to warrant that kind of construction? 6000 years ago, and that's the minimum.

originally posted by: SamIamSam
The city of Atlantis was the Eye of Africa, obviously. There's mysterious structures all over the Sahara, and The Eye itself is covered in clear signs of ancient human construction. There are even what some believe are canals. When was the last time there was water enough in the region to warrant that kind of construction? 6000 years ago, and that's the minimum.

This is a possibility. I assume that you are going to go with the story of Atlantis taking place during the 9300BC timeframe then. If this is so then why was Athens going to war with any of the people that lived there? The eye itself is an eroded volcanic dome, and has nothing to offer in the area of archeology for it being populated in the 9300BC timeframe by any civilization powerful enough to command armies from the region. Then we come into the issue of it being destroyed. What natural event could have destroyed the area but not damage the volcanic rocks that the city was built on? I'm not trying to call you, or anyone, out over this "Eye Theory" but as I stated in the other threads the Cruiser Tablemount in the Atlantic makes better sense than the Eye of the Sahara.

On the other hand I am will to hear any information you would like to share, even your opinion as to why you believe that the "Eye Theory" is correct?

a reply to: Guyfriday

Welcome to Fantasy Island ...........De Plane Boss , De Plane !

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: Guyfriday

Welcome to Fantasy Island ...........De Plane Boss , De Plane !

Sure I already figured that it could go that way, but in an attempt to redirect the Atlantis talks away from the new age none sense, and return the talking points back to the story itself. If people are serious about figuring out the riddle of Atlantis, then we should go back to the beginning to solve the root story. I think it's possible to group think this, but maybe I'm wrong … I guess we'll all see this discourse happen together.

a reply to: Guyfriday

I Do Believe in Previous Ancient Civilizations Existing Before our Present Time , but the " Myth " of Atlantis does not Definitively Fit into the Geological Record at this Time ...........

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: Guyfriday

I Do Believe in Previous Ancient Civilizations Existing Before our Present Time , but the " Myth " of Atlantis does not Definitively Fit into the Geological Record at this Time ...........

I noticed that too. If we are assume that the 9300BC timeframe, it would make it the first known story of a war between different people, and it would make history of the region very very old.

If we were to assume the 1200BC timeframe, then we get into a completely different issue of this massive war taking place right before the Trojan war.

In either case the story could have happened as discussed (well as well as it could be understood since the dialog of Critias gets cut off) The geological records could explain it too.
For the 9300BC version. If we looked a the Italian Peninsula as the region Atlantis existed near, then a landslide created by a glacial lake busting it's dam could have wiped it out.
For the 1200BC version, we would need to look for an impact area near or around the area that we are claiming to be Atlantis. It's harder in the 1200BC version since there are many myths in the region that talk about the never ending rains, flooding from the seas, and city ending earthquakes.

It's because of this weird dual-timeframe that the story could fit into that we start right out of the gate being confused.

Do you have any pretty color pictures you can show us?

Thanks in advance.

a reply to: Guyfriday

Plato seems to think "Agartha" played a role.

Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things.

www.lost-civilizations.net...

Now, anyone really wondering where Mount Olympus is?