A Question. . . Who has changed their mind on the subject of abortion?

My pets are both sentient and cognizant by definition. I sometimes think they are even self-aware but that is probably my imagination. Dolphins and whales are probably self-aware to some extent because they will sometimes commit suicide when a mate dies which shows some degree of depression or higher awareness. There are some studies and those that argue for plant sentience which I don't have an opinion on though I am aware of the ongoing debate.

Now back to the OPs topic and my post on it. I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of sentient cognizant embryo/fetus. Which is my line and I feel is absolutely fair. My stance isn't an unmoving wall it can change and right now that is the burden of proof needed for it to change.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BrianFlanders

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first? I note that you pick on the ones who can't speak for themselves which is convenient. We do know they definitely can and do react to what is done to them in the womb when their abortion happens, so it's not like they're leaping to get out.

If a woman is raped, why does she not swallow morning after # immediately after? If this that consensual, non consensual, forced, accepted, 2 weeks later regret, instant regret, etc etc....

No pill to stop it before it starts... yeah...

I won't go that far ... I could ask why a morning after pill isn't part of the standard rape kit, but a woman who's just been raped is dealing with issues and may take a while to fully accept what just happened to her.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of sentient cognizant embryo/fetus.

How does a fetus show such sentience or cognizance when the motor skills to prove such aren't developed?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Now back to the OPs topic and my post on it. I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of sentient cognizant embryo/fetus. Which is my line and I feel is absolutely fair. My stance isn't an unmoving wall it can change and right now that is the burden of proof needed for it to change.

At what point in a embryo/fetus and/or child's life cycle are you reasonable sure that they become sentient/cognizant?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BrianFlanders

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first? I note that you pick on the ones who can't speak for themselves which is convenient. We do know they definitely can and do react to what is done to them in the womb when their abortion happens, so it's not like they're leaping to get out.

If a woman is raped, why does she not swallow morning after # immediately after? If this that consensual, non consensual, forced, accepted, 2 weeks later regret, instant regret, etc etc....

No pill to stop it before it starts... yeah...

I won't go that far ... I could ask why a morning after pill isn't part of the standard rape kit, but a woman who's just been raped is dealing with issues and may take a while to fully accept what just happened to her.

I'd certainly agree with that. A morning after pill should be standard with any woman that comes in claiming she was raped. Whether or not she can confirm/remember any penetration.

originally posted by: DanDanDat

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Now back to the OPs topic and my post on it. I said I would change my stance on the issue if there was "honest" medical and scientific evidence of sentient cognizant embryo/fetus. Which is my line and I feel is absolutely fair. My stance isn't an unmoving wall it can change and right now that is the burden of proof needed for it to change.

At what point in a embryo/fetus and/or child's life cycle are you reasonable sure that they become sentient/cognizant?

Fetus's react to stimuli and sounds just like most animals. Once again, the point being it's a huge grey area. Which is the crux of the whole debate.

a reply to: DanDanDat

Hence the scientific and medical evidence.

I will have to depend on the expertise of those in the field to establish my benchmark.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BrianFlanders

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first? I note that you pick on the ones who can't speak for themselves which is convenient. We do know they definitely can and do react to what is done to them in the womb when their abortion happens, so it's not like they're leaping to get out.

If a woman is raped, why does she not swallow morning after # immediately after? If this that consensual, non consensual, forced, accepted, 2 weeks later regret, instant regret, etc etc....

No pill to stop it before it starts... yeah...

I won't go that far ... I could ask why a morning after pill isn't part of the standard rape kit, but a woman who's just been raped is dealing with issues and may take a while to fully accept what just happened to her.

Takes so long to accept it that there's a fetal heart beat and a belly bump?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BrianFlanders

So basically your support for abortion on demand is born out of Mathusian feelings?

If you feel that there are too many people, shouldn't you be volunteering to remove yourself first?

Here we go again with that. I have had this exact "debate" with others on this forum. You can look back in my posting history if you want to see my response to that. I'm not interested in rehashing it right now.

Suffice to say that I find it curious that I continue to get told to kill myself by "pro-lifers".

At this point, I am forced to conclude that the vast majority of "pro-lifers" are actually religious people whose entire "pro-life" stance is based upon mindless adherence to their religion (Which they are required to in order to stay in the cult). You cannot make a rational argument in favor of overpopulation and irresponsible breeding. Therefore, I'd appreciate it if you'd just say "abortion is against my religion" and not try to waste my time trying to talk sense into someone who believes nonsense.

In addition to that, voluntary euthanasia is (effectively) against the law. Anyone who wants to die has to resort to trying to make it happen by sneaking around in the shadows and hoping no one "saves" them in time to make them a well-preserved vegetable.

If someone tries to "remove themself" and they survive, they will effectively be arrested and incarcerated and forced to promise not to try it again. At which point, they will probably be harassed for the rest of their life for that and constantly reminded of it.

So, if you really think pro-abortion people should off themselves, maybe you should be in favor of legalizing voluntary euthanasia for everyone? If your argument really is that a humanoid slug cannot make it's own choice whether or not to be born, what is your argument against voluntary euthanasia for adults who can make their own decisions?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: DanDanDat

Hence the scientific and medical evidence.

I will have to depend on the expertise of those in the field to establish my benchmark.

You have no opinion on the subject?

Do you think you yourself are sentient/cognizant?

And if so; when do you think that happened?

Last week? When you were 5? The day you were born?

a reply to: BrianFlanders

I think stating someones religious beliefs is very beneficial to the argument, as you've pointed out.

For clarification, to my personal posts, I'm non religious. I don't believe in any god or any religion. I know others that are non religious as well that share similar views as far as abortion. It's valuable info in trying to chart the discussion.

a reply to: DanDanDat

I don't recall ever saying I didn't have an opinion. Don't twist my words to satisfy your argument.

a reply to: Grimpachi

I am not trying to twist your words. I am honestly trying to understand your opinion.

a reply to: DanDanDat


When the experts in the field provide the evidence reaching the benchmarks that I set then my stance, view, opinion, call it what you will, will change on this issue, but not before.

I think the sentient benchmark has been reached already at least in the later terms of pregnancy.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Ok thank you

a reply to: DBCowboy

I find the issue of "body autonomy" hard to grsp. Abortion is a purely ethical issue. If the potential for viability exists, then it should be respected. Am I not morally obligated to pull a drowning man from the water, even if I risk my own well being? The exception being my own certain death. For example, I am not morally obligate to dive into lava to try to save someone from a valcano. Even if he would surely die without my help?
I've been hearing a lot of the argument, "a seed is not a tree." Because it has the potential be become a tree, one must treat it like one. Similary, if it were illegal to kill trees, I would suggest it unethical to waste a seed.
Those that feel otherwise simply dont respect the potential for something greater than their own immediate gratification.

You should never kill a living organism that has the potential to grow into a human.

But there are really bad and sad people that should never reproduce.

Just glad i would not.have to live with that choice.

Because one day you might have to pay for that decision .

Imagine seeing a young man or women in your consciousness and they say hi, I would have been your son or daughter if you didint abort me.

And they looked beautiful.....not good

a reply to: DBCowboy

My mind has changed and if anything I have even become more Pro-Choice as I have gotten older which is the opposite of most folks who become more conservative as they age out of having to deal with the issue personally.

Would I have had an abortion? It would have depended on the circumstances. Medically necessary? Yes. Rape? Yes. Because I made a poor decision? Probably not but I can't say 100%.

I think it's ugly, but nature is ugly too and spontaneous abortions happen as miscarriages. Some birth defects are so serious that carrying the child to term is going to result in the same outcome. It's looking like some of these laws will basically be black and white. No abortions of any kind for any reason. Then it'll edge into the mother's behavior while carrying the fetus. It's a slippery slope and none of it places any responsibility on the male who helped make the baby.

I think this whole thing is turning out to be a revenge thing now that the conservatives have the upper hand. I don't think most of these politicians give a flying duck personally because quite a few have really questionable morals, it's about control and punishment of "sinners".

A lot of people are quoting Personal Responsibility but you can not force some people to be responsible. Outlawing something has never stopped irresponsible people from doing things, they just find ways around it that are worse. In this case more unwanted children are going to suffer being abused or neglected. My own mother told me she would have rather been aborted than to live through her miserable childhood with a violent alcoholic father who abused the family. It was daily terror.

I also think it's ironic that the people who scream about "my tax dollars!" going to fund welfare families are OK with more mouths to feed because that's exactly what's going to happen. You want government up in your personal business this way then they'll be up in your wallet too. You can't have it both ways.

Have you all ever thought your change has been manipulated by the media you consume?

I'm not a female this is on them and there doctor and God I'm just a bystander. I'm not so prideful that I need to enforce God's law or will on anyone else.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

...
My question to all of you is this;

Has your mind been changed on abortion?

If so, how?

What could cause a change in such a foundational tenet?
...

1. No

2. N/A

3. At this point, nothing I can think of.