Socialism: Legal Plunder Premised on False Philanthropy

a reply to: Lumenari

The middle class will defend Capitalism until Capitalism fails them.

"Crony Capitalism"

Even if the ultra wealthy gamed their way to the top all they did is advance the outcome of Capitalism a few hundred years.

If you can't see that uncontrolled Capitalism leads to a few vultures rising to the top at the expense of the many, you are simply blinded by your own middle class existence within the system. And you have no comprehension of the minds that rise to power within the capitalist system.

Marx was a very perceptive mind whose ideas have been butchered by Facisists who sought to control the masses through "Crony Socialism". Since Marx never advocated for "State owned" Socialism I find it odd that he gets blamed for it's foundation.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Lumenari

The middle class will defend Capitalism until Capitalism fails them.

"Crony Capitalism"

Even if the ultra wealthy gamed their way to the top all they did is advance the outcome of Capitalism a few hundred years.

If you can't see that uncontrolled Capitalism leads to a few vultures rising to the top at the expense of the many, you are simply blinded by your own middle class existence within the system. And you have no comprehension of the minds that rise to power within the capitalist system.

Marx was a very perceptive mind whose ideas have been butchered by Facisists who sought to control the masses through "Crony Socialism". Since Marx never advocated for "State owned" Socialism I find it odd that he gets blamed for it's foundation.

Please, don't sugar coat for the lie.
Marx is proven to create Murderer's of close to 1 Billion humans since the Bolshevik Revolution.

Marx is NOT a hero, he was a hater of mankind and taught lies.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Yes, we get it. Marx advocated for a system that cannot exist, ever, because every time someone tries to implement it, it fails, and the excuse is that they weren't doing it the way Marx wanted it done.

It's very convenient.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: Raggedyman

Sorry for being cheeky there, but hear me out.

None of that stuff is socialism according to the definition of socialism, where workers or the people own the means of production. Everything you mentioned, from universal healthcare to welfare, were conceived and implemented in capitalist, liberal countries.

Welfare states, or the Nordic model, are built on a capitalist system with private property. Your quotes even say “Their governments provide a high level of social support. But most businesses are privately owned. This makes them essentially capitalist”.

I would agree that socialism should refer to ownership of means of production, however
It falls under socialism as used in your OP so would a legitimate point by Raggedyman.

It is legal plunder, yes, but not socialism as we know it today.

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: TzarChasm
In my humble opinion, socialism is a response to the inevitable 1% who always buy out every factory, every mine, and every forest and field until the only way to make a living is by selling the only resource not yet owned, which is our time on Earth. When your time starts being worth less and less due to economic global warming, it's not surprising that the general public begins to think about making resources a civil right and not a privilege or commodity to be purchased. Because in the end, the only people not suffering are the ones who play a great game of monopoly and socialism is an antidote to such practices. But that's just my two cents.

Socialist countries have done far worse for the environment. Look at Chernobyl or the Ariel sea, or the pollution in Beijing, whereas capitalist countries invent electric cars and alternative energy.

North Korea is socialism. Venezuela is socialism. Mugabe’s Zimbabwe is socialism. Everyone suffers under socialism.

"Everyone suffers under socialism" implying that capitalism never hurt anyone and 98% of the GDP belonging 2% of America has never caused any problems and corporate personhood is not a factor in such matters. Capitalist countries invent electric cars but we also cower in fear of windmill cancer and worry about hogging all the sunlight with our solar power collection arrays.

I'm going to stick with my socialist born police and fire departments, as I'd rather not be asked how I want to pay for the fire department to come out, as my house is burning. I'm also a big fan of paved roads, being so unAmerican as I apparently am.

Seriously, people who have a problem with the minimal socialist-based programs in this country must live some pretty charmed lives. You have to dig pretty far down through all sorts of legitimate problems before you get to unemployment benefits or food stamps as the target of misplaced outrage.

a reply to: Justoneman

Marx never advocated forcing his ideology down peoples throats and killing everyone who didn't agree.

One of the problems with Marx is he never really advocated any way for his ideas to become reality. He was merely stating his opinions on how a better mpre equitable world might function.

By your logic we should condemn Jesus Christ for the 10s of millions of people the Catholics and others have killed for not conforming to their religion.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: TzarChasm
In my humble opinion, socialism is a response to the inevitable 1% who always buy out every factory, every mine, and every forest and field until the only way to make a living is by selling the only resource not yet owned, which is our time on Earth. When your time starts being worth less and less due to economic global warming, it's not surprising that the general public begins to think about making resources a civil right and not a privilege or commodity to be purchased. Because in the end, the only people not suffering are the ones who play a great game of monopoly and socialism is an antidote to such practices. But that's just my two cents.

Socialist countries have done far worse for the environment. Look at Chernobyl or the Ariel sea, or the pollution in Beijing, whereas capitalist countries invent electric cars and alternative energy.

North Korea is socialism. Venezuela is socialism. Mugabe’s Zimbabwe is socialism. Everyone suffers under socialism.

"Everyone suffers under socialism" implying that capitalism never hurt anyone and 98% of the GDP belonging 2% of America has never caused any problems and corporate personhood is not a factor in such matters. Capitalist countries invent electric cars but we also cower in fear of windmill cancer and worry about hogging all the sunlight with our solar power collection arrays.

No, implying not everyone suffers under capitalism. Every man has the freedom to rely on himself to better his situation, unlike socialism.

originally posted by: usernameconspiracy
I'm going to stick with my socialist born police and fire departments, as I'd rather not be asked how I want to pay for the fire department to come out, as my house is burning. I'm also a big fan of paved roads, being so unAmerican as I apparently am.

Seriously, people who have a problem with the minimal socialist-based programs in this country must live some pretty charmed lives. You have to dig pretty far down through all sorts of legitimate problems before you get to unemployment benefits or food stamps as the target of misplaced outrage.

Socialist born? Police and fire departments, roads and other tax-funded projects existed long before socialism. There is nothing socialist about them. What you said is a dangerous lie, because people will go through life believing that is what socialism is, and will vote based on it. Next thing you know they are starving in a bread line.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Justoneman

Marx never advocated forcing his ideology down peoples throats and killing everyone who didn't agree.

One of the problems with Marx is he never really advocated any way for his ideas to become reality. He was merely stating his opinions on how a better mpre equitable world might function.

By your logic we should condemn Jesus Christ for the 10s of millions of people the Catholics and others have killed for not conforming to their religion.

I hate to break it to you skippy but you are dead wrong.

www.history.com...
"
In The Communist Manifesto, Marx predicted imminent revolution in Europe. The pamphlet had hardly cooled after coming off the presses in London when revolution broke out in France on February 22 over the banning of political meetings held by socialists and other opposition groups. Isolated riots led to popular revolt, and on February 24 King Louis-Philippe was forced to abdicate. The revolution spread like brushfire across continental Europe. Marx was in Paris on the invitation of the provincial government when the Belgian government, fearful that the revolutionary tide would soon engulf Belgium, banished him. Later that year, he went to the Rhineland, where he agitated for armed revolt."

Read the manifesto and free your mind to the truth. Then read Alinsky's "Rules for Radical's" and you can see the game plan to take over America. The scheme of Soviet origins that was inspired maybe even written directly by the Kruschev gov. He who promised they would take us over without firing a shot.

Look it up so you know the truth. Alas, I think you like the lies that Alinsky recommends you use. Otherwise you are foolish for not knowing your history and laughing at others knowledge that you are not qualified to perceive. You won't ever qualify to perceive it without caring to learn. You can just repeat what you were told without questioning for yourself, but it won't work here.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Isurrender73

Yes, we get it. Marx advocated for a system that cannot exist, ever, because every time someone tries to implement it, it fails, and the excuse is that they weren't doing it the way Marx wanted it done.

It's very convenient.

That excuse is also used by free marketeers and libertarians.

But Marx is only one flavour of socialism. There are many others, in every country, that work. Take the armed forces, for example.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Isurrender73

Yes, we get it. Marx advocated for a system that cannot exist, ever, because every time someone tries to implement it, it fails, and the excuse is that they weren't doing it the way Marx wanted it done.

It's very convenient.

That excuse is also used by free marketeers and libertarians.

But Marx is only one flavour of socialism. There are many others, in every country, that work. Take the armed forces, for example.

What about the armed forces?

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf


Socialist born? Police and fire departments, roads and other tax-funded projects existed long before socialism. There is nothing socialist about them. What you said is a dangerous lie, because people will go through life believing that is what socialism is, and will vote based on it. Next thing you know they are starving in a bread line.

I assume you are being ironic.

If you are being serious, you need to fact check every sentence you wrote.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf


Socialist born? Police and fire departments, roads and other tax-funded projects existed long before socialism. There is nothing socialist about them. What you said is a dangerous lie, because people will go through life believing that is what socialism is, and will vote based on it. Next thing you know they are starving in a bread line.

I assume you are being ironic.

If you are being serious, you need to fact check every sentence you wrote.

Not being ironic. Feel free to refute me.

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Justoneman

Marx never advocated forcing his ideology down peoples throats and killing everyone who didn't agree.

One of the problems with Marx is he never really advocated any way for his ideas to become reality. He was merely stating his opinions on how a better mpre equitable world might function.

By your logic we should condemn Jesus Christ for the 10s of millions of people the Catholics and others have killed for not conforming to their religion.

I hate to break it to you skippy but you are dead wrong.

www.history.com...
"
In The Communist Manifesto, Marx predicted imminent revolution in Europe. The pamphlet had hardly cooled after coming off the presses in London when revolution broke out in France on February 22 over the banning of political meetings held by socialists and other opposition groups. Isolated riots led to popular revolt, and on February 24 King Louis-Philippe was forced to abdicate. The revolution spread like brushfire across continental Europe. Marx was in Paris on the invitation of the provincial government when the Belgian government, fearful that the revolutionary tide would soon engulf Belgium, banished him. Later that year, he went to the Rhineland, where he agitated for armed revolt."

Read the manifesto and free your mind to the truth. Then read Alinsky's "Rules for Radical's" and you can see the game plan to take over America. The scheme of Soviet origins that was inspired maybe even written directly by the Kruschev gov. He who promised they would take us over without firing a shot.

Look it up so you know the truth. Alas, I think you like the lies that Alinsky recommends you use. Otherwise you are foolish for not knowing your history and laughing at others knowledge that you are not qualified to perceive. You won't ever qualify to perceive it without caring to learn. You can just repeat what you were told without questioning for yourself, but it won't work here.

Is supporting revolution always a bad thing?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Justoneman

Marx never advocated forcing his ideology down peoples throats and killing everyone who didn't agree.

One of the problems with Marx is he never really advocated any way for his ideas to become reality. He was merely stating his opinions on how a better mpre equitable world might function.

By your logic we should condemn Jesus Christ for the 10s of millions of people the Catholics and others have killed for not conforming to their religion.

I hate to break it to you skippy but you are dead wrong.

www.history.com...
"
In The Communist Manifesto, Marx predicted imminent revolution in Europe. The pamphlet had hardly cooled after coming off the presses in London when revolution broke out in France on February 22 over the banning of political meetings held by socialists and other opposition groups. Isolated riots led to popular revolt, and on February 24 King Louis-Philippe was forced to abdicate. The revolution spread like brushfire across continental Europe. Marx was in Paris on the invitation of the provincial government when the Belgian government, fearful that the revolutionary tide would soon engulf Belgium, banished him. Later that year, he went to the Rhineland, where he agitated for armed revolt."

Read the manifesto and free your mind to the truth. Then read Alinsky's "Rules for Radical's" and you can see the game plan to take over America. The scheme of Soviet origins that was inspired maybe even written directly by the Kruschev gov. He who promised they would take us over without firing a shot.

Look it up so you know the truth. Alas, I think you like the lies that Alinsky recommends you use. Otherwise you are foolish for not knowing your history and laughing at others knowledge that you are not qualified to perceive. You won't ever qualify to perceive it without caring to learn. You can just repeat what you were told without questioning for yourself, but it won't work here.

Is supporting revolution always a bad thing?

If it is against a ruthless King or any Dictator, I think it is your duty.

To give us all an equally distributed life is not the reality of Marxism. I see the 1% in China and the old Soviet Union, yet most everyone suffers greatly like the much more well to do poor in America think they suffer till they see those people at the factories in China or other similar slave like places. I have seen the stories where they are forced to sleep where they work. You also get told what to do, and you do it or you're sent off to the reeducation camps. If you can survive that.

a reply to: TzarChasm

No one said that capitalism never hurt anyone, but the claim is that it hurts fewer than socialism where all are hurt except the few at the very top which is, of course, the few you point at in capitalism too, but *shhhh* I won't tell about the socialistic rich elite if you don't ... oh wait, you aren't. You always choose to conveniently ignore because Marx tells you they don't exist so whatever system you're suffering under isn't actually socialism.

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Justoneman

Marx never advocated forcing his ideology down peoples throats and killing everyone who didn't agree.

One of the problems with Marx is he never really advocated any way for his ideas to become reality. He was merely stating his opinions on how a better mpre equitable world might function.

By your logic we should condemn Jesus Christ for the 10s of millions of people the Catholics and others have killed for not conforming to their religion.

I hate to break it to you skippy but you are dead wrong.

www.history.com...
"
In The Communist Manifesto, Marx predicted imminent revolution in Europe. The pamphlet had hardly cooled after coming off the presses in London when revolution broke out in France on February 22 over the banning of political meetings held by socialists and other opposition groups. Isolated riots led to popular revolt, and on February 24 King Louis-Philippe was forced to abdicate. The revolution spread like brushfire across continental Europe. Marx was in Paris on the invitation of the provincial government when the Belgian government, fearful that the revolutionary tide would soon engulf Belgium, banished him. Later that year, he went to the Rhineland, where he agitated for armed revolt."

Read the manifesto and free your mind to the truth. Then read Alinsky's "Rules for Radical's" and you can see the game plan to take over America. The scheme of Soviet origins that was inspired maybe even written directly by the Kruschev gov. He who promised they would take us over without firing a shot.

Look it up so you know the truth. Alas, I think you like the lies that Alinsky recommends you use. Otherwise you are foolish for not knowing your history and laughing at others knowledge that you are not qualified to perceive. You won't ever qualify to perceive it without caring to learn. You can just repeat what you were told without questioning for yourself, but it won't work here.

Is supporting revolution always a bad thing?

If it is against a ruthless King or any Dictator, I think it is your duty.

To give us all an equally distributed life is not the reality of Marxism. I see the 1% in China and the old Soviet Union, yet most everyone suffers greatly like the much more well to do poor in America think they suffer till they see those people at the factories in China or other similar slave like places. I have seen the stories where they are forced to sleep where they work. You also get told what to do, and you do it or you're sent off to the reeducation camps. If you can survive that.

Not many real democracies around in Marx's time.

Don't get me wrong I think Marx was wrong on most things but I think blaming him for the murderous dictatorships of the 20th century is misplaced.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Justoneman

Marx never advocated forcing his ideology down peoples throats and killing everyone who didn't agree.

One of the problems with Marx is he never really advocated any way for his ideas to become reality. He was merely stating his opinions on how a better mpre equitable world might function.

By your logic we should condemn Jesus Christ for the 10s of millions of people the Catholics and others have killed for not conforming to their religion.

I hate to break it to you skippy but you are dead wrong.

www.history.com...
"
In The Communist Manifesto, Marx predicted imminent revolution in Europe. The pamphlet had hardly cooled after coming off the presses in London when revolution broke out in France on February 22 over the banning of political meetings held by socialists and other opposition groups. Isolated riots led to popular revolt, and on February 24 King Louis-Philippe was forced to abdicate. The revolution spread like brushfire across continental Europe. Marx was in Paris on the invitation of the provincial government when the Belgian government, fearful that the revolutionary tide would soon engulf Belgium, banished him. Later that year, he went to the Rhineland, where he agitated for armed revolt."

Read the manifesto and free your mind to the truth. Then read Alinsky's "Rules for Radical's" and you can see the game plan to take over America. The scheme of Soviet origins that was inspired maybe even written directly by the Kruschev gov. He who promised they would take us over without firing a shot.

Look it up so you know the truth. Alas, I think you like the lies that Alinsky recommends you use. Otherwise you are foolish for not knowing your history and laughing at others knowledge that you are not qualified to perceive. You won't ever qualify to perceive it without caring to learn. You can just repeat what you were told without questioning for yourself, but it won't work here.

Is supporting revolution always a bad thing?

If it is against a ruthless King or any Dictator, I think it is your duty.

To give us all an equally distributed life is not the reality of Marxism. I see the 1% in China and the old Soviet Union, yet most everyone suffers greatly like the much more well to do poor in America think they suffer till they see those people at the factories in China or other similar slave like places. I have seen the stories where they are forced to sleep where they work. You also get told what to do, and you do it or you're sent off to the reeducation camps. If you can survive that.

Not many real democracies around in Marx's time.

Don't get me wrong I think Marx was wrong on most things but I think blaming him for the murderous dictatorships of the 20th century is misplaced.

I agree with you on that point.

But I think his ideas of "scientific socialism" and "historical materialism" have, quite ironically, justified the worst atrocities of those trying to bring about socialism. For instance the idea of "class struggle" (historical materialism) justified Mao's Cultural Revolution and the violent class struggles that resulted.

a reply to: ScepticScot

If by real democracy you mean pure democracy, that system is simply tyranny masquerading under another another name. No, there aren't many pure democracies and for good reason.